The Breeding Debate

[a2luckygirl]

Labs are great dogs- great service dogs! Service dogs are used for people who can have lots of medical problems.And allergies. They started crossing them with poodles to help people who needed service dogs, and suffered from allergies!
This is a good thing- Now I have heard this many times- if this is the reason- it's a good one!

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by a2luckygirl

Labs are great dogs- great service dogs! Service dogs are used for people who can have lots of medical problems.And allergies. They started crossing them with poodles to help people who needed service dogs, and suffered from allergies!
This is a good thing- Now I have heard this many times- if this is the reason- it's a good one!

Like with all mixed breed dogs, there is no guarantee how they will really turn out. A deejay on a local radio station here got a Labradoodle, paid thousands for it (when the shelters here are full of Lab mixed dogs) and ended up with a dog that sheds like crazy. She jokes about it all the time on the air since the main reason she didn't want to get a dog was because she didn't want pet hair all over her house.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

you are so very wrong in your assumption that ONLY show breeders know the standard and are the ONLY ones that should be breeding. i won't even qualify( because i would surely get suspended if I wrote what I am thinking about your statement) your statement with anything else except to say that the first thing any ethical, serious breeder show or not should do is learn the standard. Read it and study it over and over until you can quote it without even looking and till you know just by looking that a dog is 'in standard" or not.

I'm finding that one thing that sets a show breeder apart from someone who just knows the standard is that you have to develp an eye for a dog as well. I have been studying non stop and learning from other exhibitors and judges to have an eye for a good dog. Reading the standard is not going to help you to judge a good front or rear, it's not going to help you understand and identify balance and proportion. How much forechest should a yorkie have? How much step under the tail? How deep should the brisket be and where should it fall in comparison to the elbow? These are things that you must learn to improve the breed and the best place to learn them is by working with exhibitors and judges who know and have mastered these skills as well as watching correct yorkies gaiting and stacked in the ring. Showing is an educational experience and a necessary hands on one because you can only learn so much from a book. I stood by Mr. Wolpert a couple of Sundays ago and tryed to see what he was seeing as he critiqued a dog in the ring. The man has been showing and breeding since 1965 and has an incredible eye, I was so honored just to be standing there. Bev Sheridan watched Danali for just a few moments and pointed out things that I hadn't noticed before though I have watched her with a critical eye since she was born. Now I know what to look for when evaluating a stud for her someday. Just staying at home and reading books isn't going to get me the education that I need to breed the quality dogs that I want to breed, I have to get my butt out there and work hard for my education. The difference in a BYB and a show breeder for me is that a show breeder just doesn't sit home and do it they get out there and persue it!

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I'm finding that one thing that sets a show breeder apart from someone who just knows the standard is that you have to develp an eye for a dog as well. I have been studying non stop and learning from other exhibitors and judges to have an eye for a good dog. Reading the standard is not going to help you to judge a good front or rear, it's not going to help you understand and identify balance and proportion. How much forechest should a yorkie have? How much step under the tail? How deep should the brisket be and where should it fall in comparison to the elbow? These are things that you must learn to improve the breed and the best place to learn them is by working with exhibitors and judges who know and have mastered these skills as well as watching correct yorkies gaiting and stacked in the ring. Showing is an educational experience and a necessary hands on one because you can only learn so much from a book. I stood by Mr. Wolpert a couple of Sundays ago and tryed to see what he was seeing as he critiqued a dog in the ring. The man has been showing and breeding since 1965 and has an incredible eye, I was so honored just to be standing there. Bev Sheridan watched Danali for just a few moments and pointed out things that I hadn't noticed before though I have watched her with a critical eye since she was born. Now I know what to look for when evaluating a stud for her someday. Just staying at home and reading books isn't going to get me the education that I need to breed the quality dogs that I want to breed, I have to get my butt out there and work hard for my education. The difference in a BYB and a show breeder for me is that a show breeder just doesn't sit home and do it they get out there and persue it!

THANK YOU!!! All the books in the world can only give so much information...it's getting out there and whether it be in the show ring or being at ringside soaking up knowledge with an experienced show breeder/exhibitor. Only thing I will add is this...everyone will have a different interperation of what the standard means and what an individual will like but with that said when you are really involved in the breed you should have a pretty good idea of what is the best representation of the breed

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by mypreciouspups

You seem to be a down to earth show breeder.. and one that does not judge so easily as some can be..
I am not referring to YT in peticular, just speaking in general of show breeders.
I like to read your posts, as I am sure others feel the same..

pooh's mum

I thank you for your kind words I can be a very critical person regarding yorkie breeders but being who I am I pick and choose my cause/thread/topic or where ever I may be
I only try to educate and as you see in some of my posts I will not back down from my beliefs or ethics, I may tone down my comments and apologize for offending anyone but I will always say I still stand behind what I say or type whether agreed upon or not
I am just so passionate about this breed because I love yorkies with all my heart and soul!!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[kelkiss5]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

you are so very wrong in your assumption that ONLY show breeders know the standard and are the ONLY ones that should be breeding. i won't even qualify( because i would surely get suspended if I wrote what I am thinking about your statement) your statement with anything else except to say that the first thing any ethical, serious breeder show or not should do is learn the standard. Read it and study it over and over until you can quote it without even looking and till you know just by looking that a dog is 'in standard" or not.

Well the breed clubs set a standard for each and every breed. If your dogs fits into this standard, well isn't that a standard dog. I mean you don't have to show it to prove it.
I understand that showing is a different cattle of fish. But if my yorkies are standard, well they are just as good as the next standard show Yorkie.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I'm finding that one thing that sets a show breeder apart from someone who just knows the standard is that you have to develp an eye for a dog as well. I have been studying non stop and learning from other exhibitors and judges to have an eye for a good dog. Reading the standard is not going to help you to judge a good front or rear, it's not going to help you understand and identify balance and proportion. How much forechest should a yorkie have? How much step under the tail? How deep should the brisket be and where should it fall in comparison to the elbow? These are things that you must learn to improve the breed and the best place to learn them is by working with exhibitors and judges who know and have mastered these skills as well as watching correct yorkies gaiting and stacked in the ring. Showing is an educational experience and a necessary hands on one because you can only learn so much from a book. I stood by Mr. Wolpert a couple of Sundays ago and tryed to see what he was seeing as he critiqued a dog in the ring. The man has been showing and breeding since 1965 and has an incredible eye, I was so honored just to be standing there. Bev Sheridan watched Danali for just a few moments and pointed out things that I hadn't noticed before though I have watched her with a critical eye since she was born. Now I know what to look for when evaluating a stud for her someday. Just staying at home and reading books isn't going to get me the education that I need to breed the quality dogs that I want to breed, I have to get my butt out there and work hard for my education. The difference in a BYB and a show breeder for me is that a show breeder just doesn't sit home and do it they get out there and persue it!

i should have known to keep my mouth shut!!!!!!! oh well!!!!!!! FYI, i don't just set at home and read. but that is the place to start. Not just reading but researching.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by kelkiss5

Well the breed clubs set a standard for each and every breed. If your dogs fits into this standard, well isn't that a standard dog. I mean you don't have to show it to prove it.
I understand that showing is a different cattle of fish. But if my yorkies are standard, well they are just as good as the next standard show Yorkie.

You are very right and this is the point I was trying to make. exactly what you said!!! Show people DO know the standard. That's why you see so many of them petting out their dogs or selling them instead of showing. Knowing the standard does not guarantee that all dogs born to a show breeder or anyone else will fit the standard. That's why we keep trying to improve on what we've got. Show and non-show alike.

[sweetie3]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I'm finding that one thing that sets a show breeder apart from someone who just knows the standard is that you have to develp an eye for a dog as well. I have been studying non stop and learning from other exhibitors and judges to have an eye for a good dog. Reading the standard is not going to help you to judge a good front or rear, it's not going to help you understand and identify balance and proportion. How much forechest should a yorkie have? How much step under the tail? How deep should the brisket be and where should it fall in comparison to the elbow? These are things that you must learn to improve the breed and the best place to learn them is by working with exhibitors and judges who know and have mastered these skills as well as watching correct yorkies gaiting and stacked in the ring. Showing is an educational experience and a necessary hands on one because you can only learn so much from a book. I stood by Mr. Wolpert a couple of Sundays ago and tryed to see what he was seeing as he critiqued a dog in the ring. The man has been showing and breeding since 1965 and has an incredible eye, I was so honored just to be standing there. Bev Sheridan watched Danali for just a few moments and pointed out things that I hadn't noticed before though I have watched her with a critical eye since she was born. Now I know what to look for when evaluating a stud for her someday. Just staying at home and reading books isn't going to get me the education that I need to breed the quality dogs that I want to breed, I have to get my butt out there and work hard for my education. The difference in a BYB and a show breeder for me is that a show breeder just doesn't sit home and do it they get out there and persue it!

I wasn't planning on commenting just reading because of my biased opinion on the standard with regards to cost,color,and BYB but gosh...


I am in awe of you. NO ONE can say this better and I think if any are listening to you really listening then you gave them all they need know

[kelkiss5]

Well at the end of the day. A yorkie was breed to catch rats. And I think if it fits the bill that it was breed for, then you have the perfect Yorkie.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by a2luckygirl

Labs are great dogs- great service dogs! Service dogs are used for people who can have lots of medical problems.And allergies. They started crossing them with poodles to help people who needed service dogs, and suffered from allergies!
This is a good thing- Now I have heard this many times- if this is the reason- it's a good one!

I will never understand why so many people think that by mixing a poodle with another dog, that it will automatically become hypoallergenic and non-shedding If you take a shedding dog like a lab and mix it with a non-shedding dog like a poodle, you are basically getting a 50/50 chance of getting a shedding dog. I've seen lab/poodle mixes that had curly, non-shedding hair, and I've seen lab/poodle mixes that had straight, shedding hair. It's basically a crapshoot to what you'll get. It's really sad that so many believe they'll automatically get a non-shedding dog - tons and tons of these lab/poodle mixes get turned over to shelters because they end up shedding. This mix is NOT a good thing (not for the poor dogs that get abandoned anyway )

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by kelkiss5

Well the breed clubs set a standard for each and every breed. If your dogs fits into this standard, well isn't that a standard dog. I mean you don't have to show it to prove it.
I understand that showing is a different cattle of fish. But if my yorkies are standard, well they are just as good as the next standard show Yorkie.

I think if you reread Brooklynn's posts, you'll see she gives a fabulous explanation of how it takes someone with years of experience evaluating dogs to be able to truly judge if a dog meets the standard or not.

One of my bow customers is a small Maltese show breeder. She has a litter of four males she has been watching to keep one for herself. She had one all picked out, was sure he was "the one". She took them all to a recent show and had them evaluated. She found out that while all three had show possibilities, one stood way out as a dog she could probably put in the ring. It wasn't the one she had picked herself.

[kelkiss5]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

I think if you reread Brooklynn's posts, you'll see she gives a fabulous explanation of how it takes someone with years of experience evaluating dogs to be able to truly judge if a dog meets the standard or not.

One of my bow customers is a small Maltese show breeder. She has a litter of four males she has been watching to keep one for herself. She had one all picked out, was sure he was "the one". She took them all to a recent show and had them evaluated. She found out that while all three had show possibilities, one stood way out as a dog she could probably put in the ring. It wasn't the one she had picked herself.

Oh yes I do no Brooklyn's explanation is a very good and detailed one. But as you say it may take years of experience to judge a yokie in the show world. But it doesn't take a judge to tell you if your dog is standard to the breed or not.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

I think if you reread Brooklynn's posts, you'll see she gives a fabulous explanation of how it takes someone with years of experience evaluating dogs to be able to truly judge if a dog meets the standard or not.

One of my bow customers is a small Maltese show breeder. She has a litter of four males she has been watching to keep one for herself. She had one all picked out, was sure he was "the one". She took them all to a recent show and had them evaluated. She found out that while all three had show possibilities, one stood way out as a dog she could probably put in the ring. It wasn't the one she had picked herself.

Thank you!! I'm having the same thing going on with a little female that I want to show...she's 7 months and not quite 4 pounds but almost...and I will always go on the advice of my mentors, they like her but we are all concerned over size But all have said hang on to her and just see what happens. I always listen to my mentors

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by kelkiss5

Oh yes I do no Brooklyn's explanation is a very good and detailed one. But as you say it may take years of experience to judge a yokie in the show world. But it doesn't take a judge to tell you if your dog is standard to the breed or not.

The whole purpose of a show is to judge the dog against the breed standard. I'm not sure what you mean by your statement.