AVSAB Postion statement on the Use of dominance Theroy in Behaviour Modification of A

[YorkieMother]

Amercan Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour www.AVSBonline.org
Sent this out this week it on what their postion is on the use of dominace in training of dogs.


http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

My favoitie part of the article is
"Will growling or trying to bite a dog or making a claw with your fingers mimic what a wolf does when he growls at or bites a subordinate? There are no studies on this. However, as an experiment, you might ask a friend who has been bitten by a dog whether poking him with your fingers bent in claw formation has an effect that’s similar to when he was bitten, or whether your growling or biting seems similarly ferocious. In general, we shouldn’t assume that our actions mimic those of a dog or a wolf. Rather, we should evaluate each of our interactions with our pets and observe their response to determine how the pet perceived it."

"Key points.

• Despite the fact that advances in behavior research have modified our understanding of social hierarchies in wolves, many animal trainers continue to base their training methods
on outdated perceptions of dominance theory. (Refer to Myths About Dominance and Wolf Behavior as It Relates to Dogs)
• Dominance is defined as a relationship between individual animals that is established
by force/aggression and submission, to determine who has priority access to multiple resources such as food, preferred resting spots, and mates (Bernstein 1981; Drews 1993). Most undesirable behaviors in our pets are not related to priority access to resources; rather, they are due to accidental rewarding of the undesirable behavior.
• The AVSAB recommends that veterinarians
not refer clients to trainers or behavior consultants who coach and advocate dominance
hierarchy theory and the subsequent confrontational training that follows from it.
• Instead, the AVSAB emphasizes that animal
training, behavior prevention strategies, and behavior modification programs should follow the scientifically based guidelines of positive reinforcement, operant conditioning,
classical conditioning, desensitization, and counter conditioning.
• The AVSAB recommends that veterinarians
identify and refer clients only to trainers and behavior consultants who understand the principles of learning theory and who focus on reinforcing desirable behaviors and removing the reinforcement for undesirable
behaviors."


JL

[YorkieMother]

Just a bump up as Ceasr is being sited yet again as a good trainer and this is the postion all vets are to take on him as handed down by thier assoicataion.

JL

[JoeyP]

I think the Dominance Theory works ....

1. If it is done Correctly ..... people can get hurt if they do it wrong

2. and therefore should ONLY be applied by people who know what they are doing

I use it and have used it with my dogs in the past and it works for me like a charm
If you think that your dog looks at you as anything other than his or her pack leader than you're putting way too much human values onto an animal that has lived and worked in packs for thousands upon thousands of years
Poking a dog at the neck may not be the same as the bite of another dog
.... but it does snap the dog out of a specific behavior and focuses their mind on You

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by JoeyP

I think the Dominance Theory works ....

1. If it is done Correctly ..... people can get hurt if they do it wrong

2. and therefore should ONLY be applied by people who know what they are doing

I use it and have used it with my dogs in the past and it works for me like a charm
If you think that your dog looks at you as anything other than his or her pack leader than you're putting way too much human values onto an animal that has lived and worked in packs for thousands upon thousands of years
Poking a dog at the neck may not be the same as the bite of another dog
.... but it does snap the dog out of a specific behavior and focuses their mind on You

Well then you may want to actually look at the lastest work on dogs by Temple Grandin or actually animals in genral.
Or Dr Mconnell or Suzanne Cothier.
Or even some older stuff by coppinger.

Dogs are not and never have been pack animals they are soical beings.
Dogs are smart enough to know that you are a human and not a dog.
They are far better at understanding us then we are them.

Why poke a dog when it takes a little more work to engage the brain and keep ones hands off.

Yes I do work aggressive dogs I much rather work hands off with them and teach trust then do it or else.
Actually Dominace aggresion is impulse control agg. and was nothing to do with dominace at all just a lack of self control and or the support to gain self control.


All to many can not do domince stuff right including Ceasr.
Not only humans get hurt if done wrong a dog can be so bably damaged that you have to put it down or it leaves in fer the rest of its life.
Fear and the use of it in training is not OK!

JL

[YorkieMother]

I would like to add that self control is not taught by force or making anyone do anything.
It taught with love, kindness, respect, time and hands off and allowing one to learn from thier mistakes.
Just cause a dog does not speak in words does not mean they do not speak and there for must be dominated into sudmission. Learn their language and they will learn faster.

Temple Grandin is a Autistic PHD packing behaviourist and see sees animals and dogs in gernal as having the same brain structure and patterns as an Autisci person.... would you beat rough up or poke or domainate an autisci person.... I do not think so.
I rahter be accused of treating them like I would my human childern than enslaving and dominating them.
Non of my dogs are out of control or lack rules but they are still aggressive or atlesat one is as it is genetic and genes can not be beaten or forced to change they are what they are.

JL

[JoeyP]

Dogs are not and never have been pack animals they are soical beings.
Dogs are smart enough to know that you are a human and not a dog.
They are far better at understanding us then we are them.

The first part of your statement could not be any further from the truth
I agree ... they ARE social beings
Being that have evolved living and thriving in packs since the genus Canus came into being

And while they might understand that you are human
they cannot change their mindset that their living arrangements and social structure in any houshold is anything other than in a pack

That is why dogs suffer from separation anxiety
That is why you put any two dogs together and IMMEDIATELY they have to determine which one is dominant

I never ever advocate using violence against any dog or animal
and that is where I disagree with the Dominance theory in its practice

But if you think your pup does Not see you as its leader than you are in big trouble down the line

[ARCHIE]

Why poke a dog when it takes a little more work to engage the brain and keep ones hands off.




While walking down a street and a large dog is approching a poke in the
side by me to break the thought in my dog's mind of going for that other
dog works like a charm to me. There is no time to engage the brain
in any other manner.
Every dog is totally different. What works for one may not work for
another.
I think Ceaser is amazing. He has saved hundreds of dogs and does not
hurt them while training. Someone will alway come up with other interpretitions of doing something but if it's not broke why fix it?

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by JoeyP

Dogs are not and never have been pack animals they are soical beings.
Dogs are smart enough to know that you are a human and not a dog.
They are far better at understanding us then we are them.

The first part of your statement could not be any further from the truth
I agree ... they ARE social beings
Being that have evolved living and thriving in packs since the genus Canus came into being

And while they might understand that you are human
they cannot change their mindset that their living arrangements and social structure in any houshold is anything other than in a pack

That is why dogs suffer from separation anxiety
That is why you put any two dogs together and IMMEDIATELY they have to determine which one is dominant

I never ever advocate using violence against any dog or animal
and that is where I disagree with the Dominance theory in its practice

But if you think your pup does Not see you as its leader than you are in big trouble down the line

have a look at coppingers work titled dogs.

Dogs do not in the wild pack they live in small groups of one...maybe two and usually just the mother and pups as do to limited resources.
you say dominanate that is not ok work along side be a guide even a leader but poking is not ok. that is hands on and not needed.

two dogs together soicalized right or should I say in the correct manner from birth with great dog speak skills should not have to fight to gain control as they are self confinednt and know how not to fight and to stay out of a fight and live in harmany.

Dogs fight as they are not soicalized well enough or those darn homrmones in not fixed males and females kick in.
There are some dogs just like humans that would rather be a one and only that is no other dogs and it not dominace in them any more then in a human that just their likes and dislikes. We do not look at that and stick a dog that rather be a single in a group and he/she is to stresed to do so. Whos needs are being missed then.. thiers.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by ARCHIE

Why poke a dog when it takes a little more work to engage the brain and keep ones hands off.




While walking down a street and a large dog is approching a poke in the
side by me to break the thought in my dog's mind of going for that other
dog works like a charm to me. There is no time to engage the brain
in any other manner.
Every dog is totally different. What works for one may not work for
another.
I think Ceaser is amazing. He has saved hundreds of dogs and does not
hurt them while training. Someone will alway come up with other interpretitions of doing something but if it's not broke why fix it?

You may want to poke around Califonria and see what is actually going on and just how many trainers are runnning around cleaning up his messes and are not able to talk about it in fear they will get into trouble as he may suit.

Postive works for all it just takes longer and most want fast fixes.

When those people packing Degress speak and they have taken years to learn not just assumed but learned and they speak as in the AVSAB it could be in our best intrest to at least take a harder look at and assume that the research being done is on many levels outside and in that garbage dump that ceasr learned his supposed skills at.


JL

[YorkieMother]

So you all know I just drove over 10 hours over the boarder and across state lines with 90 pound of mean in my car.
Cause jerk of a trainer no two of them domanated a dog so badly and choked on the boy so bad that he is not saveable. I had to run him back to his breeder as she thinks she can. And she will dominate him too.
This boy went to a bite and blood at 4 months old and he is only 13 months old with 5 other bites and many more attmepts.
If I had of had a chance at 4 months not 13 he may have been saveable.
domance training will kill this dog. He still could be helped a little now if they let me work postive but he is a hugh danger to the world and not cause he is does not know sit , down ,come , off or thinks he should rule it those darn genes and a trainers that scared him so bad that the world is so fearful he must attack first to keep himself safe.
Domination kills

JL

[QuickSilver]

I think this is sometimes more a values debate than anything else - kind of like, should you spank your kids.

From what I have read, it is true, wolves are NOT pack animals. They live in families. This makes complete sense when you think about it - you always have relatively fewer carnivores, and an ecosystem could not support an enormous band of carnivores.

Most of our research on wolves is done on artificial situations where many unrelated wolves are forced to live together in a pack.

I am thrilled to see someone else mention Temple Grandin here, I love her.

I would like to suggest two other books I've found tremendously helpful on understanding my dog. This goes into canine body language and gives you more information than "be the pack leader" or "use positive reinforcement". I suspect that Cesar knows most of this stuff intuitively, and uses it when working with dogs, perhaps without realizing it.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1929242352/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER& v=glance

Amazon.com: On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming...


I am still learning a lot about training and I go back and forth on the use of force. I DO think that it is someting ONLY an experienced trainer should do, and used improperly, it can cause a lot of damage to the dog, and possibly to you. I would also say that Cesar is very old school, and that most modern trainers do not agree with his methods.

On the other hand, one of these books convinced me that your dog talks dog to you all the time. I really believe that. It's common to recommend you use certain doggy language to calm your dog, like approaching from the side and avoiding direct eye contact. That would indicate to me that dogs recognize rougher signals, such as the alpha roll, as well.

However, I think it's crucially important to make sure you know what the dog is actually saying before you assume there is a dominance problem. If there's aggression, is it dominant aggression, or fear-based? Totally different approaches are called for in that case.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I think this is sometimes more a values debate than anything else - kind of like, should you spank your kids.

From what I have read, it is true, wolves are NOT pack animals. They live in families. This makes complete sense when you think about it - you always have relatively fewer carnivores, and an ecosystem could not support an enormous band of carnivores.

Most of our research on wolves is done on artificial situations where many unrelated wolves are forced to live together in a pack.

I am thrilled to see someone else mention Temple Grandin here, I love her.

I would like to suggest two other books I've found tremendously helpful on understanding my dog. This goes into canine body language and gives you more information than "be the pack leader" or "use positive reinforcement". I suspect that Cesar knows most of this stuff intuitively, and uses it when working with dogs, perhaps without realizing it.

Amazon.com: Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog: Brenda Aloff: Books

Amazon.com: On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals: Turid Rugaas: Books


I am still learning a lot about training and I go back and forth on the use of force. I DO think that it is someting ONLY an experienced trainer should do, and used improperly, it can cause a lot of damage to the dog, and possibly to you. I would also say that Cesar is very old school, and that most modern trainers do not agree with his methods.

On the other hand, one of these books convinced me that your dog talks dog to you all the time. I really believe that. It's common to recommend you use certain doggy language to calm your dog, like approaching from the side and avoiding direct eye contact. That would indicate to me that dogs recognize rougher signals, such as the alpha roll, as well.

However, I think it's crucially important to make sure you know what the dog is actually saying before you assume there is a dominance problem. If there's aggression, is it dominant aggression, or fear-based? Totally different approaches are called for in that case.

Well I have read both of those books you recomanded and many more. Also nice to see I am not the only wacko out here saying what I have said for going on 6 years.

Yes fear aggression is differnt than what used to be called dominace aggression and is not called impulse control agg.

Temple is one amazing Lady for what she come up against in her own life. Let alone being one strong women in a all boys club in the cattle industry and making them stand up and take notice.

As for Ceasr watch a show with the volume down and watch the dogs body language what he misses will blow your mind.

So you know wolves do not alpha roll others, the sudmissive dog or wolf rolls over on its own and this dog that rolls will change from day to day and acativity to activity. Alpha or dominace is not stagnet like once though it is a fliud event and changes which dog is in the lead on what and when.
You walk into a wolf pack at the reseach station you can not pat the wolf like you pat a dog it will bite you. Wolf behaviour does not and never has been a great indicatop of dog behaviour dogs are domesticated and wolves can never be.


JL

[QuickSilver]

Well, you sound much further ahead than I do. What other books / videos do you recommend? I'd love to learn more.

I am not sure I agree about the alpha roll - sometimes the canine voluntarily submits, and sometimes it's a harsh (ie effective) correction. I've seen both with dogs. I tried it when I was just starting out with Thor, and all it did was scare him (without any improvement in behavior), so I won't be doing it again. I wouldn't recommend it for someone else unless they had a lot of experience, in which case, they probably don't need my advice anyway!

I also agree about dominance being more fluid than originally thought. And I agree with Temple Grandin that it's more likely that dogs view us as mommies and daddies, not alphas and betas.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Well, you sound much further ahead than I do. What other books / videos do you recommend? I'd love to learn more.

I am not sure I agree about the alpha roll - sometimes the canine voluntarily submits, and sometimes it's a harsh (ie effective) correction. I've seen both with dogs. I tried it when I was just starting out with Thor, and all it did was scare him (without any improvement in behavior), so I won't be doing it again. I wouldn't recommend it for someone else unless they had a lot of experience, in which case, they probably don't need my advice anyway!

I also agree about dominance being more fluid than originally thought. And I agree with Temple Grandin that it's more likely that dogs view us as mommies and daddies, not alphas and betas.

I think the question should be more what have you not read be easier to start with not temples new book or Karen pyrors new one then say what I have read but.
Anything by Pat Mcconnell or Pat Miller or Pam dennison... bringing light to shadow really helped me. Paul Owen, terry ryan, Karen overall, jean donaldson, Ian dunbar and the list goes on and on.

I not use an alpha roll on a dog not me to it and not forced. But dog on dog a dog will offer a roll to say sorry not looking for a fight here.

Yeah they do think of us as a member of this odd family and as I teach a new 11 month old that never been away from his dog parents that life in the big world is ok. He sure looks at me like Mummy protect me.
Yes I am a long way down the dog training road as I work part time at it. run big show dogs down the raod and have had to change to keep one very fragil Yorkie girl alive and happy in the world. She would not be here if I had not changed.... for the love of a 7 year old girl I changed.

JL

[Britster]

I agree highly with JoeyP and ARCHIE.

I also agree with a lot of Quicksilver's points.

What works for one dog may not work for another.... but I can say that me giving Jackson a quick touch near his neck definitely snaps him out of it and a lot of Cesar's methods work for us. He's 98% of the time a great dog. We're working on a few things but there's no such thing as the perfect dog, I don't think. Cesar's a very wise man, in my opinion, and not just with dogs. I think he knows dogs well. And if he was mis-treating his dogs in his "pack" sooo bad, then why do they all come up to him, tails wagging, licking his face? I think people don't give him enough credit. He lists the warning "Do not try this at home" for a reason. He's a professional and if you don't know what you're doing, you're liable to ruin a dog. He's got the "magic touch" that a lot of people don't have. Some of his methods work for me and Jackson, but I honestly don't think I could do what he does with a 150 pound Rottweiler.