AVSAB Postion statement on the Use of dominance Theroy in Behaviour Modification of A

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Nothing when they come from the american human soicety and leading dog trainers... seriously nothing????

ok would you rather go to the set and see him zap a dog in person until it does a redirected bite?

My words have been said and they are that this man boiler cooks dogs to the point that they live in fear for the rest of thier lives and complying out of fear is not a way to live.
I want dogs that want to be with me and others and respond cause they want to and not out of fear.
When you watch the show you can see if you watch the second that a dogs life spark goes out and it no longer willling to try it is going along to get along and that is not a life to live. You see dogs lip licking, head turning, yawning and many other calming signals begging that fool to stop what he is doing and to please slow down.

I was responding to you and I was posting what I know.
What you are doing is very pointedly showing fear of looking at something and seeing that you may just have the wrong end of the stick and you are beating on the messanger. only thing is this messangers been around the block and knows her stuff and is a professional dog trainer so your not rattling my cage at all.
Take that which you care to and toss the rest but this guy will fall and he will fall hard on day abusive people always do.

JL

Hahaha. OK. Whatever you say. I'll just re-direct to my previous posts because I already made all my points.

*Sarcasm*

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

Hahaha. OK. Whatever you say. I'll just re-direct to my previous posts because I already made all my points.

*Sarcasm*

Really what training do you have to make any such call on his skill? or lack there of?

What seminars have you ateneded? What training do you have?
how many aggervie dog have you actually worked with?
For me I have worked with all sizes and shapes and ones that can and have gone to a bite.

Turning to sarcasm just proved my point your afraid to even look that you maybe right off base on him.

As for my training, U of Guelph two day seminar on behaviour in dogs by leading Drs in the field... note Doctors. not some lay person.

Two two day seminars with Brenda Alofff

one two day seminar with Emma parsons.

Mamy consults with Dr Bouque.
Contact with and disucsions with Pat Miller, Dr Stanley Corren, Pam dennison and Heather Logan.

Former member of IPDTA

Several days with a leading trainer in Ontario and nonintated for rehab award and best new dog trainer.
and seven years in with out one nasty dog ever leaving a mark on me.

and YOU!!?!?!?!

JL

[kalina82]

talking down to people isn't going to get them to listen or to want to listen to what you have to say. i've been reading this post and personally won't look at any of the links you've posted just because of the way you are talking to people. i don't agree with what you've posted but i'm not about to list out my credentials for you or my opinion because it will just fall on deaf ears. the way you are posting seems that what you say is right and everyone else is wrong so there is no debate here. what's the point....

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by kalina82

talking down to people isn't going to get them tblisters mind. o listen or to want to listen to what you have to say. i've been reading this post and personally won't look at any of the links you've posted just because of the way you are talking to people. i don't agree with what you've posted but i'm not about to list out my credentials for you or my opinion because it will just fall on deaf ears. the way you are posting seems that what you say is right and everyone else is wrong so there is no debate here. what's the point....

There is not talking down I just tend to say it like I see it and do not float fluff. It is as straight and as professional as I can get it and while you may have never had to put a dog down form aggression training done wrong we are working sadly our way there.
This should never have happened.

Look I have been around this block a lot of time and have found that it does not always fall on deaf ears. My point is not to change yours or blisters it is to firmly toss out the idea that what one sees on tv is not alway right or correct and that he is not a saint or saviour to dogs.

if one person just one gets the idea and trains more kindness them we have made a gain.
Agian it not just me that is saying it it is many many professionally trained PHD, DVMS and many others with more years in than you or I say this so it not a me saying it in the wind without any skills to back it.


THE POINT is that abuseing any animal in the way of training is wrong.
the point is that it is the Vet profession as a whole must abide by the AVSAB statment and no longer back him.

that is the point

JL

[Britster]

Originally Posted by kalina82

talking down to people isn't going to get them to listen or to want to listen to what you have to say. i've been reading this post and personally won't look at any of the links you've posted just because of the way you are talking to people. i don't agree with what you've posted but i'm not about to list out my credentials for you or my opinion because it will just fall on deaf ears. the way you are posting seems that what you say is right and everyone else is wrong so there is no debate here. what's the point....

Thank you.

I couldn't put it in words how her posts were irking me but you did just that, thank you! lol.

It's the way you're (YorkieMother) posting.

I'm all for a good debate and I typed out some good points that you just completely, totally ignored and threw out a bunch of articles for me to read. You don't have to agree with me. But there's a much more mature way to differ opinions with me than throwing out your "I'm better than you" argument.

I don't need to list any of my experience or training with you to express my opinion on a YorkieTalk forum.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

THE POINT is that abuseing any animal in the way of training is wrong.
the point is that it is the Vet profession as a whole must abide by the AVSAB statment and no longer back him.

that is the point

JL

And I already posted my point but abuse and dominance = completely different things.

There's nothing wrong with taking leadership. The end.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

Thank you.

I couldn't put it in words how her posts were irking me but you did just that, thank you! lol.

It's the way you're (YorkieMother) posting.

I'm all for a good debate and I typed out some good points that you just completely, totally ignored and threw out a bunch of articles for me to read. You don't have to agree with me. But there's a much more mature way to differ opinions with me than throwing out your "I'm better than you" argument.

I don't need to list any of my experience or training with you to express my opinion on a YorkieTalk forum.

I am not better then anyone and have a great deal to learn about breeding and showing and many things not related to aggression work but when one is not able to say where they got thier skills it can lead one to think that one has non.
I rather listen to a breeder that is upto date in their knowlegde than one that is not or is stuck in the past.

I rather listen and learn from a show handler that looks passed the ring to the end product which is the dogs life after showing.

I rather learn form a dog trainer with experince than one that does not or is a one dog trick.

Happy training.
I have to go get the boys from the show and get a girl to a plane to go get bred and then get home to work with the agggressive one and see my own girl

JL

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Here's a biologist's look at the process of making changes.
What people do when you start to institute a change (in chronological order)
1. Ignore you
2. Pretend to agree but actually do nothing
3. Resist, delay, obstruct
4. Openly attack you (the dangerous phase, but also a sign that change is starting)
5. Absorb
6. Utilize
7. Take credit
8. Proselytize

What people say in the process of accepting the change

1. "That might work for your population but not for mine." (absorbing)
2. "I can use it but not for anything important." (absorbing and utilizing)
3. "Some of my people can use it if they feel they need to." (utilizing)
4. "Oh yes, we’ve been doing that for years, it’s quite good." (utilizing and taking credit)
5. "We’ve come up with a really incredible program, you should try it." (taking credit and proselytizing)

How the change maker can react effectively

1. When they ignore you, find allies and persist.
2.. Don’t be misled by lip service. Find allies and persist.
3. Meet resistance with persistence. Move around the resistance; try other avenues.
4. The stage of open attack is a touchy time. People can get fired, for example. Keep your head down, but persist. Don’t take the attack personally, even if it is a personal attack. Attack is information; it tells you:
a) You’re getting somewhere: change IS happening, causing extinction-induced aggression.
b) Your attacker is frightened. Empathize.
c) Your attacker still believes in the efficacy of aversives.
5. Absorbing and utilizing: this stage can last a year or more. Maintain generous schedules of reinforcement.
6. They’re taking credit for your idea? By all means, let them; your goal is the change. Credit is a low-cost reinforcer and people who want it don’t satiate. 7.Give it away in buckets.
Are they pitching the change? Good. If you want to change something else, you now have new allies.


JL

This is very interesting, just happened upon it and liked reading about that, thanks!

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie

This is very interesting, just happened upon it and liked reading about that, thanks!

Well it is true and if you read it a realize where the others are at in thier learning it keeps it from getting personal.
I see it in most of the responces to anything negative on ceser and dominace.
Some if not opennly are questionong and wondering if they are got things right way up.
Makes them scared and conrened that one day they may have to look at thier choices and see a change. Change is never easy.
The one that is willing to go look guys got the wrong end of the stick gets beat with it.
If you keep it from the personal and just presit on the hard core facts and leave it to that then they can spin and spit (cause they do not have the reseach to back their claim) all they want but
facts and science although it grows and changes usually is on the right track.

JL

[QuickSilver]

Hey, just wanted to mention that VS described the alpha roll in the same way as posted above in her last eppy, ie, that it is usually an "omega roll" initiated by the submissive wolf.

One thing I wonder about is if it simply serves as a negative reinforcer for dogs. It's a vulnerable position and very uncomfortable if not taken voluntarily. That would explain why it works sometimes.

I agree that as a technique, it "ups the ante" and if you misunderstand the cause of your dog's undesired behavior, this can actually make it worse. I've seen people post here that they tried the alpha roll and it did not have the intended effect.

When I first started walking Thor, I tried alpha rolling him a few times to discourage bad behavior. It was so unsettling for him that he didn't want to walk with me again, and this was a dog that did back flips at the thought of going outside. I'm not sure if this was why, or it Thor was very sensitive about his stomach in general, but it was really hard for me to teach him Roll Over and Bang! because he hated exposing his stomach. He would do it for belly rubs or while playing, but he hateHateHATED it if I did it, even if it was in teaching a trick. We did overcome it and I can put him on his back now, but it's only for belly rubs and tooth brushing.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Hey, just wanted to mention that VS described the alpha roll in the same way as posted above in her last eppy, ie, that it is usually an "omega roll" initiated by the submissive wolf.

One thing I wonder about is if it simply serves as a negative reinforcer for dogs. It's a vulnerable position and very uncomfortable if not taken voluntarily. That would explain why it works sometimes.

I agree that as a technique, it "ups the ante" and if you misunderstand the cause of your dog's undesired behavior, this can actually make it worse. I've seen people post here that they tried the alpha roll and it did not have the intended effect.

When I first started walking Thor, I tried alpha rolling him a few times to discourage bad behavior. It was so unsettling for him that he didn't want to walk with me again, and this was a dog that did back flips at the thought of going outside. I'm not sure if this was why, or it Thor was very sensitive about his stomach in general, but it was really hard for me to teach him Roll Over and Bang! because he hated exposing his stomach. He would do it for belly rubs or while playing, but he hateHateHATED it if I did it, even if it was in teaching a trick. We did overcome it and I can put him on his back now, but it's only for belly rubs and tooth brushing.

Me too and same thing with the rolling
My girl checked out. that why I say many use it and miss read it as sudmisson when the dog is gone.
I usually say it like this I never see a dog get up and go yippy lets do it again.
Please can I please roll me again. They eothr get up with a brain in tatters or hunting a fight and man that is not place to be if they get up and they come at you.

Using anything that is punisher should be used last not first and rarely.

Rolling adog usually back fires and trust me the goals is always not toa hve the dog go to a bite cause if so you just reinforced that which you do not want and you are so gettting it more.

JL

[kjc]

Okay folks ... my 2 cents worth. I am desperately trying to understand. From what I have gleened from life experience so far... in the dog/owner world, if the owner doesn't step up and say be the boss/alpha, then the dog will ... not as a challenge but more like filling a vacancy. Example: someone comes to my door, my dogs go ballistic if I do nothing. If I tell them to stop barking and fussing, that I got it under control and they see that and accept it, then I have their trust that all is well and I am the boss/alpha. They never challenged me for the position, they assumed I wasn't protecting the house and did it on their own. When I walked to the door, I spoke loud enough over their barking, remaining calm, and made them get back from the door. In their excitement, my feet were nipped as I claimed the doorway and entrance (was that the challenge or displaced aggression?) and told them to go lay down and back off. They're getting better each time and I only got nipped the first time.

Next example: Rescued dog plays rough with toys and bites hands to get toys and steals toys from other dogs because she owns them all. I bought her hide a squirrell and did the VS squeel when I got nipped. Worked okay for a day or two, then while playing her excitement escalated and she did a closed hit of her teeth on my face under my eye. I did the alpha roll but I couldn't hold her down until she became calm/submissive, she was way to excited and squirmy, and headstrong and wanted up. I let her up early to avoid injury. She won. Within 5 minutes she was at it again, and I alpha rolled her again with a better, safer grip and more serious intent, and matched her excitement level with my voice, remaining calm but very assertive. She became calm and submissive, as I began to remove my hands, she fought to get up, so I continued holding a bit longer. I was gentle but firm with her, as my intent was not to cause her pain or to instill fear, but to let her know in no uncertain terms that biting the human would not be tolerated. I believed she was shocked, but it had the desired effect, and I am carefull not to let her escalate to that level of excitement again. Now we practice sitting on my lap for as long as she will tolerate it, and I oooh and aaah over her. She' s coming by more often now for lap time and yesterday she actually fell asleep in my arms for almost an hour for the very first time (sitting up then leaning back). Normally she would only stay a minute or so. There have been no more intentional biting incidents and I use the VS squeel again which works for tiny accidental nips and keeps her wits about her.

I started to try to clicker train her and on the first click she tried to tear my hand up. They never showed that on TV! I have since desensitized her to where she likes the clicker and I laugh about her first time now.

Last but not least she doesn't brush well on the hind end and legs and forget the nails. She was getting frantic to the point of vomiting which she did. I was nothing but gentle with her the entire time. She refused all treats offered to her on the table. A previous owner or groomer must have done something that has her terrified. I was thinking to take her to the vet for a tranquillizer, but she's got a liver shunt or MVD and I didn't think I could risk it. I did get her combed out and I just tipped her nails, just to show her I wasn't going to hurt her. We'll see when I have to do it all again.

[Izzy Princess]

I, too, am so interested in this thread and have watched Victoria, Ceasar and that other guy that is on In The Dog House whom many here on YT hate.

I'm a total believer in clicker training and just so you can see a little how it works I posted a video on YT.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/my-...ml#post2770440

I'm not an expert by any means but I try to learn from all of you and from my local trainer. I take a little info from each and apply to my own situation. But I have to say clicker training works or you can skip the clicker and use treats. But find what motivates your doggie..I have one that will do anything for food and one that could care less for food but thrives on praise..some love toys.

I didn't know we had behavioral trainers here on YT!!

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Izzy Princess

I, too, am so interested in this thread and have watched Victoria, Ceasar and that other guy that is on In The Dog House whom many here on YT hate.

I'm a total believer in clicker training and just so you can see a little how it works I posted a video on YT.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/my-...ml#post2770440

I'm not an expert by any means but I try to learn from all of you and from my local trainer. I take a little info from each and apply to my own situation. But I have to say clicker training works or you can skip the clicker and use treats. But find what motivates your doggie..I have one that will do anything for food and one that could care less for food but thrives on praise..some love toys.

I didn't know we had behavioral trainers here on YT!!

Nice to meet another clicker person. It really is fun to see the bond between you and your dog bloom and grow in such a trusting way.
They are not afraid to fail.

I am not sure if you are addressing me in the behavioural trainers terms.
I work behaviour everything in training is just shaping what you want and therefore behaviour. I know my limits and when to send an owner to handson help as not being able to see a dog in real life makes it hard to tell sometimes what is really going on.

JL