AVSAB Postion statement on the Use of dominance Theroy in Behaviour Modification of A

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

I agree highly with JoeyP and ARCHIE.

I also agree with a lot of Quicksilver's points.

What works for one dog may not work for another.... but I can say that me giving Jackson a quick touch near his neck definitely snaps him out of it and a lot of Cesar's methods work for us. He's 98% of the time a great dog. We're working on a few things but there's no such thing as the perfect dog, I don't think. Cesar's a very wise man, in my opinion, and not just with dogs. I think he knows dogs well. And if he was mis-treating his dogs in his "pack" sooo bad, then why do they all come up to him, tails wagging, licking his face? I think people don't give him enough credit. He lists the warning "Do not try this at home" for a reason. He's a professional and if you don't know what you're doing, you're liable to ruin a dog. He's got the "magic touch" that a lot of people don't have. Some of his methods work for me and Jackson, but I honestly don't think I could do what he does with a 150 pound Rottweiler.

IF one knows how to use reinforcers in the right manner and what works for that dog like right now I have one that will not work for food but you show him water he is all over trying to get it.
Ceser has not magic touch it just good luck and again go talk to the trainers in his home state and see just how many Ceser dogs they are fixing.
As I am a dog trainer with experince and I work aggression I am verry aware some dogs learn faster then others and you need to find their sweet spot but abuse is not acceptable ever in training it is the lazy mans way out and if you do not poke a human kid why is it accpetable to do it to a dog as they think and feel at very simlar levels.
Right now I working on a 11 month old 96 pounder that is still growing and you can not force him to do anything you ask. I am big enough to take him down and have had to to get him safe as he was about to bolt but for his safe keeping only. I not willing to spend my life forcing him into a kennel or into a car I rather ask and him going willingly and without poking prodding or teaching him to sudmit. I work out the why do you not want to and then fix that.

JL

[QuickSilver]

YorkieMother, do you have links documenting problems after Cesar worked with a dog? I'd be interested to see what's being said.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

IF one knows how to use reinforcers in the right manner and what works for that dog like right now I have one that will not work for food but you show him water he is all over trying to get it.
Ceser has not magic touch it just good luck and again go talk to the trainers in his home state and see just how many Ceser dogs they are fixing.
As I am a dog trainer with experince and I work aggression I am verry aware some dogs learn faster then others and you need to find their sweet spot but abuse is not acceptable ever in training it is the lazy mans way out and if you do not poke a human kid why is it accpetable to do it to a dog as they think and feel at very simlar levels.
Right now I working on a 11 month old 96 pounder that is still growing and you can not force him to do anything you ask. I am big enough to take him down and have had to to get him safe as he was about to bolt but for his safe keeping only. I not willing to spend my life forcing him into a kennel or into a car I rather ask and him going willingly and without poking prodding or teaching him to sudmit. I work out the why do you not want to and then fix that.

JL

That's great that you do it a different way. Every one is different and Cesar has said many times he is open to new ideas and each dog is totally different.

I think it's highly ignorant of you to state Cesar is abusive to his dogs because that statement is so bluntly false. Without knowing Cesar (or you, for that matter) and just seeing the dogs at the center on TV... they are so NOT abused. Puh-lease. If that ain't the biggest load of crap I've heard, then I don't know what is. All those dogs are extremely happy around Cesar and happy in general, and dogs don't act for the television.

I think trainers are just jealous of him because he actually has success. He does more than just making the dog rely on a treat to do something. You shouldn't have to have a treat in your hand to make your dog listen. I'm ALL for positive re-enforcement. I think it's great. My dog is very food motivated and it's a great thing to have and be able to do. Cesar even uses food occasionally. It all depends on the situation, as you know.

It annoys me to no end how much crap Cesar gets that he doesn't deserve. He damn well loves all the dogs he encounters and if anyone thinks he is doing this to abuse or damage the dogs mentally... you may need your eyes checked. Yes, we only see what's on TV, but I've done tons of research on him (among with all sorts of training methods) and you can just SEE the dogs are not emotionally scarred by Cesar. They lick him, they give him affection, they wag their tails. It's not like when he comes into a room, they stick their tail under with their ears all the way back, absolutely terrified.

The thing is, Cesar does not claim to be a typical "sit-stay-down" trainer. He claims to train PEOPLE how to handle dogs, and rehabilitates dogs. His cases are normally not very "typical" in most episodes as they're more extreme than anything else. Sometimes dogs NEED a quick tap on the shoulder or a quick tug to snap them out of it. That's not to say you should KICK your dog. Cesar has stated MANY times he's not hurting, injuring or kicking or hitting a dog.... the dog is not in pain when he gives a quick tap. It's no worse than training a horse. You kick the horse to get it goin'. Also, the comment about you don't "poke" your kids... First off, dogs are not human, so they are different. Second off, kids used to be SPANKED when they did things wrong, and I don't think children who were spanked are mentally and emotionally scarred for life. My parents were spanked and my grandparents were too and they'll tell ya one thing... they never did it again. I'm not an advocate for spanking your children or anything. I'm just sayin'.

You also have to remember... we live in America where dogs are SPOILED ROTTEN. A lot of times they don't get to even be dogs because their humans smother them so much. Cesar grew up on the streets of Mexico where dogs were "wild" or stray, so he got to see the TRUE interaction of a pack without it's human handlers to ruin them. Most of the time, it IS the owners fault, and not the dogs. So, yes, of course he is going to have a different viewpoint. Don't we all?

Now, I'm not a professional in any way, but I feel I've done my research and know a hell of a lot more about dogs in general and their psychology than the general typical dog owner next door so I feel my opinion should count for something.

I just think it's very unfair to single him out and I feel the need to stick up for him, even though he could care less about your opinions. What he does works, he's a millionare, and he's a good human being with good moral values. Is everything he does right? NO! He's made mistakes, who hasn't? He's admitted to making mistakes and updating his ways and discovering new training methods. He's not stuck on ONE idea.

His philosophy of excersise, disipline and affection WORKS. I don't care what anybody says. It's worked for Jackson so that's all I can say. It's a good philosophy for children as well.

On another spectrum (I'm sorry this is getting so long, I hope someone is still reading) when you look at dog trainer Victoria Stillwell, who trainers seem to value more... she really focuses on the SAME exact things as Cesar, without the "touch" but she also brings up dominance issues, who is head of the household, and basically everything Cesar says, just in a softer way.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

So you all know I just drove over 10 hours over the boarder and across state lines with 90 pound of mean in my car.
Cause jerk of a trainer no two of them domanated a dog so badly and choked on the boy so bad that he is not saveable. I had to run him back to his breeder as she thinks she can. And she will dominate him too.
This boy went to a bite and blood at 4 months old and he is only 13 months old with 5 other bites and many more attmepts.
If I had of had a chance at 4 months not 13 he may have been saveable.
domance training will kill this dog. He still could be helped a little now if they let me work postive but he is a hugh danger to the world and not cause he is does not know sit , down ,come , off or thinks he should rule it those darn genes and a trainers that scared him so bad that the world is so fearful he must attack first to keep himself safe.
Domination kills

JL

That was NOT "dominance".... that's abuse.

Cesar does not kill any of his dogs or put them in harmful situations.

And I'm sorry, I have to laugh at your last statement... "Dominance kills!" Come on. That's like saying if your above your child in your family pack and make his rules, it's going to kill him. Dominance does not kill... smoking does, however.

That's the problem with the world today... you can't do or say anything without being sued or ridiculed. Kids in schools are becoming out of control because God forbid a teacher PUNISHES THEM?! Teachers have no power over kids anymore and they're afraid to set rules, boundaries and limitations for fear of being sued, losing their job, parents getting angry for disciplining their child. Same basic concept. Kids need to know what the word NO means, as do dogs. It can't ALL be positive and happy and dandy all the time. Is it supposed to be negative all the time then? NO! Of course not. Positive training is a wonderful thing and I am not against it in ANY way and neither is Cesar from what I can see. All I'm saying is sometimes you have to let your dog know they're doing something negative and there's nothing wrong with that. And it shouldn't involve hitting or kicking the dog.

Dominance is, by definition, the state that exists when one person or group has power over another. You SHOULD have power over your dogs, should you not? You SHOULD have power over your kids, should you not? I'm simply just not understanding how dominance kills?

[JoeyP]

You can't paint everyone with such a broad brush ...
Because you came across someone who used abusive tactics doesn't mean that everyone who subscribes to the dominance theory is abusive

In my wildest dreams I would never condone harming a dog for ANY reason
But I do think that to be a good dog owner you should understand how to be a good and fair leader

This is absolute hogwash that a dog understands who you are and what his role should be in your household
That is why we have dogs turned into shelters
Because people ididn't get the memo .... Your dog needs you to be their leader

[Britster]

Originally Posted by JoeyP

You can't paint everyone with such a broad brush ...
Because you came across someone who used abusive tactics doesn't mean that everyone who subscribes to the dominance theory is abusive

In my wildest dreams I would never condone harming a dog for ANY reason
But I do think that to be a good dog owner you should understand how to be a good and fair leader

This is absolute hogwash that a dog understands who you are and what his role should be in your household
That is why we have dogs turned into shelters
Because people ididn't get the memo .... Your dog needs you to be their leader

Amen!

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

YorkieMother, do you have links documenting problems after Cesar worked with a dog? I'd be interested to see what's being said.

Sorry been away Have a look I added links to some the rest you can snag and google your self and read away.

JL

Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan



The Anti-Cesar Millan / Ian Dunbar's been succeeding for 25 years with lure-reward dog training; how come he's been usurped by the flashy, aggressive TV host?
Read More About Cesar Millan :: The College of Veterinary Medicine at The Ohio State University

Read More About Cesar Millan

■American Humane Association - "Dog Whisperer Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful" 'Dog Whisperer' Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful

■New York Times/Mark Derr - "Pack of Lies"
■Esquire Magazine/Curtis Pesmen - "Misgui ded Expert of the Year"
Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist, Animal Behavior Clinic, Purdue University Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist, Animal Behavior Clinic, Purdue University
■Review of "Cesar's Way" from Pat Miller of The Bark Magazine
■Paul Owen, the Original Dog Whisperer - "A Bone To Pick?" Dog Whisperer FAQ - National Geographic's TV Series

■Michael Linder - "Dog Owners Want To Bury Cesar?"
■USA TODAY - "Dog Whisperer" Cesar Millan Sued by TV Producer
■Newsday - "A 'Tough Love' Dog Whisperer Spurs Some Yelps"
■DailyPress.com/Steve Dale - "Dog Whisperer Makes a Lousy Role-Model For Dog Owners"
■The Anti-Cesar Millan -- Ian Dunbar's been succeeding for 25 years with lure-reward dog training; how come he's been usurped by the flashy, aggressive TV host?
■IAABC Concerns Regarding Child Safety on National Geographic's Dog Whisperer Show IAABC Concerns Regarding Child Safety on National Geographic’s Dog Whisperer Show Sandi’s K9 Management

[YorkieMother]

As for those stuck in the stone age of domiance rules and hog wash have a read.

International Positive Dog Training Association

The Dominance Theory

By Norma Jeanne Laurette



Let me begin by saying I was taught the “dominance” theory - as it pertains to our pet dog's and their interactions with us, their guardians. Within my first year of instructing dog training classes, I stopped using choke chains, pinch (prong) collars, alpha rolls and all use of force or physical punishment because I quickly realized the potential harm the use of these tools could o to a dog. This potential for harm is not only physical and psychological, it can destroy the trust our dogs have in us, and as a result, the bond between a dog and its owner may be corrupted. Since trust and respect are sides of the same coin, I feel the dog's trust in its owner must be

protected at all cost. Along the same lines, I no longer use the word “obedience” in association with training due to its basic meaning according to The Oxford Dictionary, “submissive to another's will”.


At that point in my career, I didn't realize there were many trainers already using positive methods. I was convinced I was the only one in my city with the beliefs I held, and I felt very much alone. Since then, I have met so many of like-mind, and I've learned so much, and continue to learn everyday. I'm happy to say, my city now consists almost totally of “positive”trainers.


Although I no longer taught the use of tools or techniques that involved pushing or punishing, I did teach the “dominance” theory and the importance of “leading the pack”. Over the past few years this theory has been challenged, and as a result, I renewed my research on the subject. Because of what this research revealed, at this time, I no longer agree with the “dominance” concept. Here's why.



There is a common belief among dog owners and trainers alike, that dogs will challenge their owners in attempt to rise in rank, and lead the pack. This theory has been around for decades, and although still popular, many of the top canine behaviour experts now believe this concept to be incorrect, and assert that we have misinterpreted the dog's motivation by interpreting the dog’s behaviour in that manner.


Dog owners and trainers alike often use the “dominance” theory to explain a variety of canine behaviours. Trainers often use this theory to justify both the use of aversive tools and physical techniques designed to over-power the dog, with the objective of intimidating the dog into subservience in order to stop unwanted “dominant” behaviours. This type of “training” works by virtue of the concept that the dog becomes afraid to “behave” in particular ways for fear of punishment. Unfortunately, this has cost many dogs their lives. “Dominance exercises” have

been known to cause aggression and other unwanted behaviour that result in euthanasia. In one case, a trainer in Florida actually killed a dog while attempting to force it into submission. After muzzling the dog and sitting on it for over an hour, the dog lost consciousness and later that day, had to be euthanized due to its injuries. R10



The concept of “ranking” comes from the idea that a wolf will challenge another of similar rank, hopefully winning the challenge, thereby gaining higher status, and eventually, leading the pack. Many believe this behaviour has been passed down over thousands of years, affecting the behaviour of domestic dogs and their interactions with their human guardians. R1


In reality, only “unacquainted” wolves living in captivity behave in a manner that appears as though they are competing for “status”, due to confined artificially created territories. R7 In my opinion, this is just another example of wolves being forced to compete for limited resources, such as food and mating rights.


Wolf packs living in the wild are dominated by one alpha male and female breeding pair, who guide and protect their cubs. R9 As soon as they are old enough to mate, these cubs will leave the pack to find mates, and raise families of their own. This would mean that every wolf healthy enough, and able to find a mate, will be “alpha” at one time or another during its lifespan, but only when raising its young.



During the socialization period of development, a puppy is imprinted with recognition of its own species. As a result, dogs do not identify humans as “canines” or “pack members”, because we smell, think and behave differently. R2 According to John Fisher, because we are not perceived as dogs by dogs, they will not compete with us for rank. R3 With “alpha” position comes the responsibility of providing for the pack and because we provide everything the dog needs, such

as food, shelter etc., it would be counter-productive for a dog to challenge us for “alpha” position. R4


According to Coppinger, R6 dogs became isolated from their wild ancestors long ago resulting in a new species, the Canis Familiaris - the domestic dog. Although some wolf-like behaviours remain in the domestic dog, since they are a different species, it's not realistic to assume all dog behaviours will be the same as those of the wolf. However, if we choose to compare domestic dogs' behaviour to it's natural ancestors, it only makes sense that we should compare it to the wild

wolf, not wolves attempting to survive in the face of human interference. R5


Every behaviour blamed on “dominance” is normal in canine terms and can be explained by simple motivation and reinforcement. It's quite simple, dogs want good things. R11 If you saw a $100 bill lying in the street would you not pick it up? Why then is a dog helping itself to your dinner “dominant”?, when they are scavengers by nature. It's not a “dominant” dog that takes your food, it's a normal dog doing what comes naturally to its species.


This is what I believe now; one of the few commonalities between dogs and humans is – some are more assertive than others. Dogs that are more assertive will try harder to obtain valued resources, be it attention, food, comfortable sleeping places, freedom to run and explore etc. Dogs that are less assertive are quicker to relinquish the resource to a more assertive dog or human. Since it's about the resource, it stands to reason – if you can control what the dog values, you can control the dog. An assertive dog is more of a challenge to train, but it has nothing to do with dominance.


Although it may seem as though we are “splitting hairs” with terminology, the main difference is this. According to The Oxford Dictionary, “Dominance” means “in control over a group” and “assertive” means “to insist”. An assertive dog is challenging a person or another dog to win resources that it wishes to control, not in order to control the other person or dog; therefore, a dog’s competing for a desired resource has nothing to do with ranking.



The bottom line is this: if we want dogs to behave in a manner that is not natural to it's species then we have to control the environment to prevent the natural - yet unwanted behaviour. In order to do so, we have to teach new behaviours and reinforce them. Although dogs need guidance to be good companions, “dominating” them has proven to be counter-productive at the very least, and extremely abusive at its worst. It's time for us to teach those around us, dog owners and dog trainers alike, to stop blaming, labelling and punishing dogs with a “dominance” tag. When the world becomes aware that it is not only easier, but also more productive, to teach instead of punish, only then will the world be a more humane place for dogs.


References

R1 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 4 – Dominance: Where Does It Come From?

R2 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 4 – Pack Theory

R3 - Diary of a Dotty Dog Doctor, John Fisher 1997

R4 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 5 – Pack Theory

R5 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 7 – Origins Of The Pack Rules

R6 - The Domestic Dog, Edited by James Serpell 1999

R7 - Dominance Fact or Fiction? Barry Eaton 2002, Page 6 and 7 – Origins Of The Pack Rules

R8 - Dominance Fact or Fiction? Barry Eaton 2002, Page 7 – Origins Of The Pack Rules

R9 - Alpha Status, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs, David Mech, 2000

R10 - http://www.palmbeachpost.com/pbcentr...ddog_0719.html

R11 – The Power of Positive Dog Training, Pat Miller, Howell Book House, Wiley Publishing Inc., 2001

[YorkieMother]

These are repeat post if you search here in training more will come up on dominace theroy

This is a new article so I have not read it yet.

Dominance Theory

love this one

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

Debunking the Dominance Myth - Dog Public

[Britster]

Those articles mean nothing to me. You can Google just about ANYTHING you want and come up with pros and cons for everything. You can find just as many good articles about Cesar Millan as well, so, that doesn't really prove anything to me.

And... I want to hear YOUR words, not some articles that you didn't write. You're not replying to my posts so that shows to me that you can't prove my posts to be false or wrong.

But whatever, I posted my points and I appreciate everyone's opinions.

[Ladymom]

I am so glad that the AVSAB finally publicly took a stand on this issue.

The Monks of New Skete, who developed the theory and the Alpha Roll back in the 1970's, retracted it many, many years ago. They stated that they never intended it to be used by owners, but only by trained professionals in the most extreme cases.

This is also a good article that debunks the dominance theory:

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Britster

Those articles mean nothing to me. You can Google just about ANYTHING you want and come up with pros and cons for everything. You can find just as many good articles about Cesar Millan as well, so, that doesn't really prove anything to me.

And... I want to hear YOUR words, not some articles that you didn't write. You're not replying to my posts so that shows to me that you can't prove my posts to be false or wrong.

But whatever, I posted my points and I appreciate everyone's opinions.

Nothing when they come from the american human soicety and leading dog trainers... seriously nothing????

ok would you rather go to the set and see him zap a dog in person until it does a redirected bite?

My words have been said and they are that this man boiler cooks dogs to the point that they live in fear for the rest of thier lives and complying out of fear is not a way to live.
I want dogs that want to be with me and others and respond cause they want to and not out of fear.
When you watch the show you can see if you watch the second that a dogs life spark goes out and it no longer willling to try it is going along to get along and that is not a life to live. You see dogs lip licking, head turning, yawning and many other calming signals begging that fool to stop what he is doing and to please slow down.

I was responding to you and I was posting what I know.
What you are doing is very pointedly showing fear of looking at something and seeing that you may just have the wrong end of the stick and you are beating on the messanger. only thing is this messangers been around the block and knows her stuff and is a professional dog trainer so your not rattling my cage at all.
Take that which you care to and toss the rest but this guy will fall and he will fall hard on day abusive people always do.

JL

[YorkieMother]

If you want to see my artilce that I worte go lookk up the stuff by yorkie trainer here.... that is my stuff.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Here's a biologist's look at the process of making changes.
What people do when you start to institute a change (in chronological order)
1. Ignore you
2. Pretend to agree but actually do nothing
3. Resist, delay, obstruct
4. Openly attack you (the dangerous phase, but also a sign that change is starting)
5. Absorb
6. Utilize
7. Take credit
8. Proselytize

What people say in the process of accepting the change

1. "That might work for your population but not for mine." (absorbing)
2. "I can use it but not for anything important." (absorbing and utilizing)
3. "Some of my people can use it if they feel they need to." (utilizing)
4. "Oh yes, we’ve been doing that for years, it’s quite good." (utilizing and taking credit)
5. "We’ve come up with a really incredible program, you should try it." (taking credit and proselytizing)

How the change maker can react effectively

1. When they ignore you, find allies and persist.
2.. Don’t be misled by lip service. Find allies and persist.
3. Meet resistance with persistence. Move around the resistance; try other avenues.
4. The stage of open attack is a touchy time. People can get fired, for example. Keep your head down, but persist. Don’t take the attack personally, even if it is a personal attack. Attack is information; it tells you:
a) You’re getting somewhere: change IS happening, causing extinction-induced aggression.
b) Your attacker is frightened. Empathize.
c) Your attacker still believes in the efficacy of aversives.
5. Absorbing and utilizing: this stage can last a year or more. Maintain generous schedules of reinforcement.
6. They’re taking credit for your idea? By all means, let them; your goal is the change. Credit is a low-cost reinforcer and people who want it don’t satiate. 7.Give it away in buckets.
Are they pitching the change? Good. If you want to change something else, you now have new allies.


JL

[YorkieMother]

oh dear double post