Bad bad marking issue

[Natalie Marie]

Hello Everyone...

So my Pierre is a horrible marker. He just got fixed two weeks ago and I feel as though it has gotten better but i need it to stop. My carpet is ruined and the smell of pee is killing me. I am moving into a new apartment soon and can't allow him to make the entire place his territory.

I bought baby diapers and plan to put them on him. I was looking for a threat of someone who has already done this but I need some advice. He is great about using his pads but still feels that he needs to pee on everything else. I just dont want him to pee on himself if he has a pad right there when no one is home. Should I try and get away from using the pads... diaper him while I am gone... then take the diaper off and put him outside when I come home? Will he learn from this? He will be 10 months on the 4th of July... HEEEELLLPPPPPP

Thanks

[Britster]

Well, if marking is REALLY embedded in them already and has been going on for a while... it will be hard to stop. I do think it IS a trainable issue though but you have to work really hard. You literally will have to treat him like a little puppy again and not give him too much freedom, and if you do, watch him like a HAWK. The minute you see that leg lift, make a loud noise like a "AH-AH" and say "No!" and bring him to the proper place to pee.

The new apartment is a GREAT place to start since it's new so you obviously don't want it ruined and I'm sure you will be more motivated to make sure he doesn't lift his leg. The neutering can sometimes take a month or more to take full effect, but if not done soon enough, sometimes it won't help at all.

I would keep him contained in a crate or an ex-pen when you are not at home to be sure he doesn't go. If he goes in his crate (which most dogs will not - but some do) then a belly band/diaper might be necessary. I don't like using belly bands or diapers though as a method of training though.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Britster

Well, if marking is REALLY embedded in them already and has been going on for a while... it will be hard to stop. I do think it IS a trainable issue though but you have to work really hard. You literally will have to treat him like a little puppy again and not give him too much freedom, and if you do, watch him like a HAWK. The minute you see that leg lift, make a loud noise like a "AH-AH" and say "No!" and bring him to the proper place to pee.

The new apartment is a GREAT place to start since it's new so you obviously don't want it ruined and I'm sure you will be more motivated to make sure he doesn't lift his leg. The neutering can sometimes take a month or more to take full effect, but if not done soon enough, sometimes it won't help at all.

I would keep him contained in a crate or an ex-pen when you are not at home to be sure he doesn't go. If he goes in his crate (which most dogs will not - but some do) then a belly band/diaper might be necessary. I don't like using belly bands or diapers though as a method of training though.

Good post, and I agree you won't see any difference the first few weeks at all. The hormone testosterone is still in his bloodstream; it will be a month or so before it's gone. The adrenal glands make a little, and for some dogs this is enough to keep them marking if the marking behavior is firmly established. One thing I think helps a little, is taking walks, and let him do his marking outside, and praising him when he does it. Joey has never marked inside, but he loves to mark outside, and this is perfectly acceptable.

[miabellaamoure]

Since I have all girls...I never had the issue come up of marking until I started fostering little Yorkieboys.

I quickly discovered the fantastic "belly-band" which is just a strip of material that you adhere a panti-liner (l found in the women's personal hygiene section at your grocery store) and the band wraps around the girth of their abdomen just covering the "weinie" fastened with velcro.

Both my fosters were young so, it was easy to train them not to mark but, if I had to do it without the belly band...I'd only foster females.

Good luck on your new apartment and you can master this problem with being consistent on correction & praise & definitely limit your lil' guys space!

[Sway Says]

Oh you're scaring me! My Harley is 8 months and he only marks outdoors. I hope that in another 2 months I won't have to launch him to the moon.

But there is a solution to the marking problem. Confinement. This isn't incarceration, it's just confinement. When there's no way for you to enforce the no marking rules you need to use "creative avoidance" so that he won't regress and forget or disregard your teachings.

So when you're not home you need to keep him in his crate. If he urinates in his crate then he should be disciplined for doing so (but you should clean his crate immediately so that he isn't tempted to do it again). Also make sure that if it's a wire crate it's covered so that the urine won't escape. He may just lift his leg and pee outside the crate and miss the whole crate lesson.

What's the lesson? He needs to learn that if he urinates in it he will have to marinate in it. Your dog doesn't like to lay in his pee any more than you do.

When you are home keep him leashed and tied to your belt like an umbilical chord or keep your eye on him 24/7. I find it easier to tie him to something or put his leash in my belt loop. This helps you catch him in the act and promptly correct him. If he knows that he won't get away with it he'll do it less and less.

Also while you're in the house put a "tab leash" on him. If your dog runs from you when he knows he's in trouble this short one foot leash will make it easier for you to catch him. A dog that knows he will be caught and that you're going to follow through with discipline won't run from you. Running after your dog after he's done wrong is not very alpha and your dog knows it. The tab leash makes him easier to keep up with.

To interrupt his leg lifting the belly bands are a great idea. I wrap a bandana around Harley's waist twice if I fear he'll make a mistake at a friend's house. Also when he lifts his leg you can correct him interrupting his action with a shake can (a plastic bottle full of coins). It scares the bejesus out of them. He'll associate bat-crap-insane noise with peeing in the house.

After your baby gets better with not marking you can take off the leash and keep the tab leash on for a little longer. Once you feel that you've gone three weeks without problems then he may be rehabilitated.

What's important is that you clean up all pee. Marking pee smells different than regular pee and your dog will often mark the same spot he's marked before. It's like a compulsion, they have to keep it fresh. So your job is to completely clean up the areas he's fouled with enzyme cleaner that'll take the smell away. Don't use ammonia cleaners like bleach or oxy-clean. Ammonia is a compound in their urine and will encourage them to mark there again.

But even though all this seems like negativeness there's some really great news!!!

You're moving. And that means a clean slate. There are no areas that your dog has called his own. And you need to let him know that the entire house is YOUR territory, not his. The only terroritory that belongs to him is his crate. If he can't behave in YOUR territory, he should know that he will be confined to his crate until he can respect your rules.

So yeah, this sounds a little hard nosed--but it works.

And I'm sure you'd rather be tough on your pup for a little while than to have to live a lifetime in Urineland.

I hoped this helped. GOOD LUCK!

[Natalie Marie]

Thank you all for your advice!! Sounds like it is going to be a long road for this girl!!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Sway Says

Oh you're scaring me! My Harley is 8 months and he only marks outdoors. I hope that in another 2 months I won't have to launch him to the moon.

But there is a solution to the marking problem. Confinement. This isn't incarceration, it's just confinement. When there's no way for you to enforce the no marking rules you need to use "creative avoidance" so that he won't regress and forget or disregard your teachings.

So when you're not home you need to keep him in his crate. If he urinates in his crate then he should be disciplined for doing so (but you should clean his crate immediately so that he isn't tempted to do it again). Also make sure that if it's a wire crate it's covered so that the urine won't escape. He may just lift his leg and pee outside the crate and miss the whole crate lesson.

What's the lesson? He needs to learn that if he urinates in it he will have to marinate in it. Your dog doesn't like to lay in his pee any more than you do.
When you are home keep him leashed and tied to your belt like an umbilical chord or keep your eye on him 24/7. I find it easier to tie him to something or put his leash in my belt loop. This helps you catch him in the act and promptly correct him. If he knows that he won't get away with it he'll do it less and less.

Also while you're in the house put a "tab leash" on him. If your dog runs from you when he knows he's in trouble this short one foot leash will make it easier for you to catch him. A dog that knows he will be caught and that you're going to follow through with discipline won't run from you. Running after your dog after he's done wrong is not very alpha and your dog knows it. The tab leash makes him easier to keep up with.

To interrupt his leg lifting the belly bands are a great idea. I wrap a bandana around Harley's waist twice if I fear he'll make a mistake at a friend's house. Also when he lifts his leg you can correct him interrupting his action with a shake can (a plastic bottle full of coins). It scares the bejesus out of them. He'll associate bat-crap-insane noise with peeing in the house.

After your baby gets better with not marking you can take off the leash and keep the tab leash on for a little longer. Once you feel that you've gone three weeks without problems then he may be rehabilitated.

What's important is that you clean up all pee. Marking pee smells different than regular pee and your dog will often mark the same spot he's marked before. It's like a compulsion, they have to keep it fresh. So your job is to completely clean up the areas he's fouled with enzyme cleaner that'll take the smell away. Don't use ammonia cleaners like bleach or oxy-clean. Ammonia is a compound in their urine and will encourage them to mark there again.

But even though all this seems like negativeness there's some really great news!!!

You're moving. And that means a clean slate. There are no areas that your dog has called his own. And you need to let him know that the entire house is YOUR territory, not his. The only terroritory that belongs to him is his crate. If he can't behave in YOUR territory, he should know that he will be confined to his crate until he can respect your rules.

So yeah, this sounds a little hard nosed--but it works.

And I'm sure you'd rather be tough on your pup for a little while than to have to live a lifetime in Urineland.

I hoped this helped. GOOD LUCK!

Don't know what you mean by disciplined, but most experts believe you should ignore the mistakes and praise the success. If he's peed in his crate, it is all your fault, not his. You have done one of several things wrong. The crate could be too big, and he thinks of it as an apartment rather than bed. Secondly, you aren't taking him out of the crate often enough, puppies can only hold it for a couple of hours during the day, and lastly you may not be cleaning his crate properly after he's had an accident. For hard surfaces vinegar and water is ok, but for bedding, you need an enzyme cleaner such as Nature's Miracle works.

You idea of marinating in his own pee, is a cruel idea, and often used by puppy millers you aren't teaching them a thing by this. Dogs hold it for as long as they can, it goes against their instinct to pee in their bed, when they actually decide to pee, they can't hold it another second. If you are taking your dog out ever couple of hours, and this still happens, you need to have him checked by a vet, to see, if there is a medical problem. Here's a chart that give approximate time that a dog of a certain age can hold it. Indoor Potty Training - Method #2

Remember marking isn't the same as peeing and is done for entirely different reasons. Marking is regulated by hormones and certain odors, not the bladder. Marking is a very hard behavior to modify once it's firmly established, it is considered a wired in behavior, and the dog has little control of it. Certain smells can set it off. Just as humans, have little control over sneezing; dogs have little control over marking. The best preventative is neutering, but it takes a while for the effects of neutering to take place. A bellyband is a useful tool during this period, and also for unneutered dogs. Please change the pad often, and don't let the dog marinate, as irritations and infections can develop.

[Sway Says]

The crate should be big enough for a dog to comfortably lie down in and no bigger and he should be taken out to pee as his bladder will allow.

As far as disciplining your dog for going in the crate, I usually discouraged the behavior through verbal disapproval. Granted dogs usually police themselves because they realize their mistake afterward. When Harley would have a bathroom lapse in his crate I would let him know that I was not happy with him verbally. But he only messed in his crate a handful of times when he was a puppy and never does it anymore.

Am I saying that a dog should be locked in his crate for hours and never given a chance to urinate? I don't think I said that at all. Or that we should behave like cage breeders? That was a little harsh.

But if you put the dog in the crate to run out to the grocery store and he pees inside he will have to live with the consequences until you can get back and clean it up, won't he? After doing this once or twice he'll realize that he prefers to be dry and hold it. He will also come to find that he actually *can* hold it and that will make it easier for him to do so when you're trying to train to pee at appropriate times in appropriate places.

Like I said, the idea is confinement and not incarceration. The dog is only in the crate because he cannot be trusted to urinate properly outside of the crate, not because he is a bad dog.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Sway Says

The crate should be big enough for a dog to comfortably lie down in and no bigger and he should be taken out to pee as his bladder will allow.

As far as disciplining your dog for going in the crate, I usually discouraged the behavior through verbal disapproval. Granted dogs usually police themselves because they realize their mistake afterward. When Harley would have a bathroom lapse in his crate I would let him know that I was not happy with him verbally. But he only messed in his crate a handful of times when he was a puppy and never does it anymore.

Am I saying that a dog should be locked in his crate for hours and never given a chance to urinate? I don't think I said that at all. Or that we should behave like cage breeders? That was a little harsh.

But if you put the dog in the crate to run out to the grocery store and he pees inside he will have to live with the consequences until you can get back and clean it up, won't he? After doing this once or twice he'll realize that he prefers to be dry and hold it. He will also come to find that he actually *can* hold it and that will make it easier for him to do so when you're trying to train to pee at appropriate times in appropriate places.

Like I said, the idea is confinement and not incarceration. The dog is only in the crate because he cannot be trusted to urinate properly outside of the crate, not because he is a bad dog.

I have no problem with a crate; I think they are wonderful; I have a problem with your comment, "He needs to learn that if he urinates in it he will have to marinate in it." Sorry, but most authorities say the dog doesn't make the mistake the owner makes the mistake; I disagree strongly with your advice on marinating in his own pee. We are teaching our dog things all the time, and if house breaking were your only goal, perhaps your method would be considered a good one. However, I don't believe this method establishes a good long-term trusting relationship between a dog and a human. Puppy mill dogs are often more difficult to housebreak because they have learned to live covered in pee. Could you give me one source that recommends you method of discipline?

[Nancy1999]

Here are some links to why it's important to clean up your dog as soon as he's soiled his crate.

Q. What if my puppy always soils the crate?
A. Are you sure he wasn’t in there for more than an hour or two? If not, he may have been raised by a breeder who kept him in a crate all the time. If this is the case, the crate is useless. Do everything as instructed above, but instead of putting him in the crate, keep him on his leash which is tied to your belt loop(as in Step 3 above). When you have to leave the house, put him in your puppy-proofed kitchen, expect a puddle or a pile when you return home, and DON’T punish him for it! Dog Days Behavior Center

You'll also need to keep Fido himself clean. If he's stinky and surrounded by the smell of pee and poo, he's more likely to have accidents. If you keep him fresh and clean, he's more likely to try to stay that way. Whether he's having accidents or not, you should bathe and brush him regularly, and, if necessary, trim any excess hair around his backside and genitals that may tend to hold urine or feces after he relieves himself. He must be bathed after any accidents that cause him to come into contact with his urine or feces. You will need to do this EVERY TIME. If you find that you're having to bathe him frequently, be sure to use a mild, conditioning shampoo. Housetraining Basics - The Ten Commandments of Housebreaking - #3

****THOU SHALT CORRECT FIDO ONLY WHEN YOU CATCH HIM IN THE ACT****


It may be tempting to correct Fido because you feel like it's the only way he'll learn. Or you may correct him out of frustration caused by not knowing what else to do. Or just because you're MAD. It can be hard to keep your cool when you find another pile or puddle on the floor, but correcting Fido when you find his mistake instead of when he made the mistake isn't part of a good housebreaking program.

Improperly timed correction, however, can make a bad situation even worse!
Housetraining Basics - The Ten Commandments of Housebreaking - #5 .

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Sway Says

The crate should be big enough for a dog to comfortably lie down in and no bigger and he should be taken out to pee as his bladder will allow.

As far as disciplining your dog for going in the crate, I usually discouraged the behavior through verbal disapproval. Granted dogs usually police themselves because they realize their mistake afterward. When Harley would have a bathroom lapse in his crate I would let him know that I was not happy with him verbally. But he only messed in his crate a handful of times when he was a puppy and never does it anymore.

Am I saying that a dog should be locked in his crate for hours and never given a chance to urinate? I don't think I said that at all. Or that we should behave like cage breeders? That was a little harsh.

But if you put the dog in the crate to run out to the grocery store and he pees inside he will have to live with the consequences until you can get back and clean it up, won't he? After doing this once or twice he'll realize that he prefers to be dry and hold it. He will also come to find that he actually *can* hold it and that will make it easier for him to do so when you're trying to train to pee at appropriate times in appropriate places.

Like I said, the idea is confinement and not incarceration. The dog is only in the crate because he cannot be trusted to urinate properly outside of the crate, not because he is a bad dog.

The OP has a problem with marking. Marking and urinating are two different things. Marking is an instinctive dog behavior...crating him will not end his instinctive desire to mark his territory. Shaking a can to interupt him is a far better idea...which may or may not work.

And no puppy understands a verbal reprimand after the fact. Your puppy only knows your tone and that you were upset....he has no idea why. He simply got older and his bladder control improved.

[Sway Says]

I have no problem with a crate; I think they are wonderful; I have a problem with your comment, "He needs to learn that if he urinates in it he will have to marinate in it." Sorry, but most authorities say the dog doesn't make the mistake the owner makes the mistake; I disagree strongly with your advice on marinating in his own pee. We are teaching our dog things all the time, and if house breaking were your only goal, perhaps your method would be considered a good one. However, I don't believe this method establishes a good long-term trusting relationship between a dog and a human. Puppy mill dogs are often more difficult to housebreak because they have learned to live covered in pee. Could you give me one source that recommends you method of discipline?

Sure, why not?

I don't see how teaching your dog not to pee in his crate creates a lapse in the human dog bond or makes you a puppy miller. If he pees in his crate intentionally, he will see the consequences from those actions and refrain from repeating the action. I never said you should force the dog to pee in the crate, keep the crate dirty or anything of the sort. If he pees he will have to deal with it until you clean it up. That's the math. You urinate while I'm out you deal with it until I get back. Most dogs don't want to deal with that so they simply don’t do it.

Here's the a source about crate use and choice.

“The Evans Guide for Housetraining Your Dog” by Job Michael Evans. Chapter 13. Pages 89-90

Some leg-lifters, however, if crated in open-air crates will simply shoot their urine out of the sides of the crate, keeping their own area clean and still being able to indulge in their favorite pastime. It might be necessary to get a plastic crate )the kind the airlines use) so that if the leg-lifter lifts his leg, he will urinate on his own premises, which might discourage him from the habit.

This is an excerpt from "People, Pooches, and Problems: Understanding, Controlling and Correcting Problem Behavior in Your Dog" by Job Michael Evans a Co-Author of the Monks of New Skete's book "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend."

Chapter Twelve "Creative Avoidance" Page 102

"Twinkles was an unaltered Yorkshire Terrier. He had a habit of leg-lifting every place he desired, including the sides of the sofa, the bed and even his owner's leg. While it was easy enough to stage a set-up*** for such behavior (and we did), I recommended that Twinkles first be neutered and then strictly confined to a crate whenever the owner was not home. The bulk of the sprinkling that went on occurred at that time. But the owner wanted to start work on the problem right away and was enthusiastic about the idea of set-ups and discipline after the fact--perhaps too enthusiastic. Because the behavior was long standing, and because it would take a few weeks for the benefits of the neutering to kick in, some creative avoidance was in order. We set it up so that Twinkles resided in a crate so small he would have to lie in his own urine if he let loose. He refrained, and after two weeks of strict confinement (and the neutering operation) the owner staged a set-up. She left the house with an advance warning, returned, disciplined if Twinkles had urinated and then repeated the process. Twinkles tightened up after just one set-up. It was probably the combination of neutering, crating and the actual set-up that helped Twinkles become a little star. But creative avoidance also played a role in this success story.

No Cop Out

Twinkles' owner asked me at one point, "Aren't we just avoiding the problem by neutering and crating him?" I replied, "Yes, in a sense we are, but we need to let a little time pass during which Twinkles adjusts to the hormonal changes of the neutering and to strict crating. He has to learn to correct himself, so to speak, from within, by simply learning to hold his own urine."

***In a nutshell a "set up" is a way for you to correct your dog's problem behavior by baiting him what you don't want him to do so that you can correct him. To set up the leg lifting you'd probably follow these steps. First identify the trait you want to correct. "I do not want Twinkles to mark in the house when I am not there." Perfect. Now begin. You warn Twinkles as you are leaving that he is not to lift his leg. You leave (but you don't really leave, you look through the window and wait). As soon as Twinkles lifts his leg you charge in as he is in the act and correct him. Then you wait some time (maybe a few hours maybe the next day) and do it all over again. Soon Twinkles decides to wait to sprinkle until he is outside because he is never quite sure when you will correct him inside. This is not a method I made up. Job Michael Evans details it in his book and I would suggest it to anyone. It helped me teach my dog not to eat my shower curtain. It only took two set-ups for that...

Okay so that's explained.

This is about advice. You can take it or leave it. But please don't attack me.

[Nancy1999]

I think your first quote is saying that if they pee through a wire crate you might want to use a plastic crate, this is not the same thing as saying they should marinate in their own pee.

Your second quote is suggesting a neuter, and a small crate, the same thing I suggested above.

We set it up so that Twinkles resided in a crate so small he would have to lie in his own urine if he let loose. He refrained, and after two weeks of strict confinement.

This is not the same as saying they allowed him to lie in the pee. If a dog is in a small crate that he views as a bed and not an apartment he will do everything possible to hold that urine. A dog "realizes" he has to lie in his own pee just by being in the small crate, this is nothing you have to "teach" him by actually allowing him to lie in the pee.



I've read threads posted by people who say that their dog is urinating in the crate and they punish by taking away bedding and allow the dog lie on a cold tray in urine. I think this is horrible, even if you don't take away the bedding. If this is happening you need to get as smaller crate, and take the dog out more frequently.


Its clear that I won't change your mind, I hope others who are crate training will not allow their dogs to sleep in their pee, to "teach them a lesson." I really don't see why you felt attacked, but I strongly disagree with you training methods, and the posts you used, as "back up" don't back you up, in my opinion.

[Sway Says]

I love it. I’m going to be an evil puppy miller yet, huh?

I never said "To house train your dog he must sleep in his pee."

We set it up so that Twinkles resided in a crate so small he would have to lie in his own urine if he let loose. He refrained, and after two weeks of strict confinement….

This is not the same as saying they allowed him to lie in the pee.

And I didn’t say that either. I know that I said you should clean it up when you return.

I never said the dog should perpetually stay in his pee. But if he does pee and you’re not there, he’ll suffer the consequences. Evans says that if the dog tries to lift his leg to squirt out of the crate he won’t be able to. Of course the dog will quickly figure out that if he tries this he’ll be laying in his pee. Even more reason to hold it.

What I am saying is that you should crate train your dog.

And you don't need to convince me of anything. I feel that we could both agree that the dog could use a crate.

You're worried about semantics. But I'm not going to apologize for what I said.

The fact is if your dog pees in his crate and you are not there then that dog will have to be in that pee till you get there. Period. That's logical. And I said again that a dog will most likely not do this because this is an unpleasant experience.

As far as teaching something—there are lessons to be learned from this. Overall you are trying to get the dog to hold his urine and by doing that the dog will understand that he actually CAN hold his pee. There’s no need for him to pee every thirty minutes. Also by crate training you can get your dog on a schedule so that you both can predict when it’s time to pee. That’s two.

As far as you not liking what I said or how I said it, that’s cool the advice wasn’t for you. But will crating work? No doubt.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by Natalie Marie

Hello Everyone...

So my Pierre is a horrible marker. He just got fixed two weeks ago and I feel as though it has gotten better but i need it to stop. My carpet is ruined and the smell of pee is killing me. I am moving into a new apartment soon and can't allow him to make the entire place his territory.

I bought baby diapers and plan to put them on him. I was looking for a threat of someone who has already done this but I need some advice. He is great about using his pads but still feels that he needs to pee on everything else. I just dont want him to pee on himself if he has a pad right there when no one is home. Should I try and get away from using the pads... diaper him while I am gone... then take the diaper off and put him outside when I come home? Will he learn from this? He will be 10 months on the 4th of July... HEEEELLLPPPPPP

Thanks

I would like to stay out of the debate going on below as I do not agree with all of the strategies and suggestions that were given as training tools for housebreaking.

First off, you need to control the marking behavior by purchasing Bellybands for your little guy. I would like to discourage you from using a doggie diapers as they are more for incontinence and females in heat.

What a bellyband does is stop the ability to mark by catching the urine before it hits the mark but it does not stop the marking behavior. Are you sure that he is marking and not having a house training issue? These are two totally different and need to be addressed differently.

Since you live in an apartment, I am guessing that this is a house training issue and that he is not going outside enough. You also need to remove his ability to sneak off and pee and you can do this a few different ways. Tethering him to your waist is a perfect solution to not allow him to get out of your site. When he is not tethered to you then you he needs to be put into his crate. As hard as this might sound, you need to take him out once every hour and as soon as he pees, praise, treat and back into the house. Put the belly band back on him and keep him tethered to your waist or into an xpen or crate. The crate needs to be small enough so that he does not have room to potty inside the crate. If he does have a potty accident in the crate, clean it up and DO NOT SCOLD HIM. Each time that he does potty outside you can let him have a little freedom but until you can totally trust him you need to keep him either tethered or banded. When you take him out you need to make sure that he does his business and immediately afterward bring him back into the house. He does not need to sniff around and look at the birdies. Potty inside, tether or crate, with a belly band.

Is he a puppymill puppy? If he is you need to handle him differently than if you have had him from a baby. Puppymill dogs are use to living in their own filth and many cannot be crated because of the past trauma of the mill.