Looking 4 A Parti Yorkie

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Snow Yorkies

Here is a picture of a couple of Skye Terriers. Does anyone else see white???

The picture is probably a little misleading. The standard for Skye Terriers states: "The coat must be of one over-all color at the skin but may be of varying shades of the same color in the full coat, which may be black, blue, dark or light grey, silver platinum, fawn or cream." If you saw them in person, you would see -- no true white as in Biewers/Parti-color Yorkies.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

The Yorkshire Terrier breed, began by breeding different types of Terriers and more than likely, other breeds of dogs, mutts and colors. It was the crosses between those dogs that produced the original Yorkie and it's the genes of those dogs, that are still being passed through our Yorkshire Terriers today.

The Parti gene is a rare, recessive gene in our dogs. A traditional colored yorkie who carries the gene, will pass the gene onto 25% of it's offspring. If 2 traditional colored yorkies are bred together and they both carry the Parti gene, some of their pups will be Parti colored. A line of dogs can carry this Parti gene for many, many, many, many generations but it won't be known until a Parti carrier is bred to another Parti carrier.

Prior to AKC allowing these Parti colored pups to be registered, puppies who were born this color were swept under the table, being sold without papers, given away or destroyed. Since this was an unacceptable color (by our breed standards) most people would not repeat that breeding in fear of producing more parti colored dogs.

The Yorkshire terrier breed standards have changed over the years, early Yorkies were a much larger breed than today's yorkies. I'm sure, standards will continue to change but change is harder for some to accept than others. By AKC now allowing this color to be registered (after extensive DNA testing) it has opened the door for future change and acceptance of this color.

Many people have misconceptions that this Parti gene is defective, impure or a freak of nature. Hopefully by educating people a little more about genetics, it will help them to understand and accept this color.

Yes, there are unethical breeders in the world, so buy from breeders with good reputations, get your references and feedback from customers. I'd also suggest to buy Parti pups from parents that have been DNA'd (DNA'd for a few generations if possible).

Good luck, I hope you change your mind and one day find your dream Parti

This is very well said. Do you have partis??? I have just ordered two of them.

I understand that the YTCA preaches against them, but many breeds of dogs have developed from "mistakes" There are other breeds of terriers that look almost identical but they are registered and shown under a different names. I can't remember the exact breed names, but one has it's ears up and the other down, that is the only difference. I imagine the breeders of the original one were extremely upset when breeders started breeding for this "faulty trait" New breeds have to start somewhere.

If the YTCA refuses to change their standards to include them, another breed club will be developed and standards will be set and these dogs will be in the ring eventually.

I can't wait to get mine. They "ARE" rare and that is why I have had to wait a year to get one from a reputable breeder. The fact that they sell for a great deal more than traditional yorkies has created a lot of dishonest breeding.

I would not reccommend getting one from just any breeder because there are "knock offs" out there that are being passed off as "parti colored yorkies" but are actually mixes. I would not buy one that could not be traced back to the Nikko line.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by kathy785

But were not other dog breeds developed from these recessvie genes? There are many many colors of Labs. Sorry I cannot think of other dogs, but I know that many breeds have been developed over the years. Yes, most breeders would quietly found homes for the dogs with "undesirable traits," Werner Biewer decided that the white was not a health issue (like patellas, liver shunt, etc.), and he liked the color, so he bred to enhance the color. Werner came up with the color pattern that is now the standard for Biewers. I was told that the ICU would have accepted the Biewers if Werner would have called them something else (Harlequin Yorkies). The AKC recognizes the ICU, so then these "Harlequin Yorkies" would have been an AKC recognized breed. Werner Biewer kept records of each breeding, so it was not just a "let's see what we get" type of process. Each breeder that sees a trait in their brood stock and tries to replicate it are basically doing the same thing, breeding for a certain trait. This is one reason for line breeding, to try to have the traits repeat themselves.

I agree that Yorkies that accidentally end up with white, should not go for a premium price, but Biewers that meet the standards and have impressive show records should be rewarded just as traditional Yorkies are rewarded for lineages with champions. I believe I stated somewhere on YT, the partis are NOT allowed to show, but the Biewers ARE, and they must be up to the standard that has been set forth for them. Partis could be of any quality and be called a parti. There are breeding quality and pet quality Biewers too. Let's just hope that the breeders you contact are ethical enough to charge accordingly. Not all Biewers are worth the high prices you see advertised, just as not all the yorkies are worth the high prices either! Do your homework and ask LOTS of questions before you put any money down.

Very Good. The Biewer people were on the ball and created their own breed standard wish is what parti breeders need to do. If the yorkie breeders don't want them called yorkies then fine, give them a different name.

Who cares what they are called. They are gorgeous and do not need the yorkie name. they are able to stand on their own. that just means one will not be able to mix them with traditional colored ones.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Is it possible? -- I suppose anything is possible. But there are many who have invested untold hours researching the history of the Yorkshire Terrier and have come up with a comprehensive history. The early reports that they were so unsure of original breeding mixes is really no longer accurate. They have a fairly concisive picture. And the picture just does not include any white.

From the YTCA site: "When crafters from Scotland came into England, they brought several ?Scotch?terriers, among them the Paisley and the Clydesdale. The Paisley was a small silky coated dog in various shades of blue. The Clydesdale was a blue and tan dog with the exact color pattern as the Yorkie of today. All of these original breeds were grizzle, tan, blue, blue and tan, or black and tan. No white dog or dogs with white markings were involved in the process of developing the breed."

My personal opinion is that somewhere in the line a dog other than a Yorkshire Terrier was allowed to tie up with the mother. Maybe they also had her bred officially with a Yorkie sire and the litter looked all Yorkie and was sold as such. Maybe the puppy of this mixed breeding looks all Yorkie and carries the AKC papers, then it is bred, its puppies look all Yorkie, one of those pups is bred and suddenly somewhere down the line that rascal non-Yorkie's traits spring up and a puppy is tri-colored. Everyone is in awe as they just "know" all the relatives are pure Yorkie so this must be some recessive gene -- I think it is just the genes of the accidental mating springing up. The owners who think they have a rare throwback are not to blame -- they might not even know that original breeder who let her Yorkie-in-heat get tied with a different breed. I think this is the case for most well-meaning folks. But with SO MANY parti-colors springing up across the net, I am also fairly sure some are intentionally crossing a breed to get tri-colors they can say are Parti-color Yorkies. I see this as a serious problem in breed dilution. But this is just one opinion and others are just as sure of their guess on the topic.

Whereas your history of the Morgan DOES contain the vari-color horses -- the official history of the Yorkie does not. So, that is basically the difference.

Perhaps the reason there are no white yorkies recorded in history is because they were culled at birth and they remained a "dirty little secret".

Breeders were afraid of being banned from the breed club if anyone found out that their "champion" had produced a "misfit". And most "misfits" do come from Champions because that is mostly where the close breeding takes place. Way back then, the club were very prestigious and they were small so everyone knew everyone else.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

The thing I find the most interesting in the parti colour is that they don't seem to be showing up in litters of those show breeders that have immersed themselves in Yorkies both in breeding and the show rings. If they were, you would bet we would know about it.
I am talking about breeders who know their pedigrees, the kennels and dogs in those pedigrees so far back to about the time they started in the breed. That's a lot of years of information. I am talking about show breeders that have been around 20, 30, 40 years and would have a fair number of litters and puppies under their belt. I am talking about the show breeders striving to breed to the breed standard and live and breathe Yorkies. The ones who don't breed only to fill the pet market for whatever bucks they can get.
Why would we know about it? Show breeders also have to go out on their lines, use someone else's stud for breeding and/or buy a Yorkie from another show breeder. If something was showing up in the whelping box, you would bet word would get around.
In the 10years i have been participating in the show world I have yet to hear of fellow show breeders producing a parti colour.
That's what makes me very suspicious of the origins of the particolour.
I do not believe the maltese or maltese alone were used in creating the particolour or Biewer, don't really care what you want to call them. I believe the maltese may have played a role in it, or not but I do believe the Shih Tzu was in there somewhere.

Because a fanatic show breeder would cull a puppy that was so far from the standard before the word got out that their champion produced such a misfit. Credit needs to be given to those who had the courage to stand up and admit that their dog produced such and oddity. I believe "Nikko's Mickey Spilane" was the original sire of the first white puppy.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by tegamom1

Well if this is the case as you say, what dog or champion bloodline are you talking about? It is only right to name this dog and let someone who has been involved in reputable show breeding for years answer this accusation.

It's no secret.

Nikko Kennels Mickey spillane.

the kennels that were instrumental in getting the AKC to register them and providing all the DNA were Crownridgegems and Summit

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

I would venture to say you do not know the world of show dogs and show breeders. That's why I said that many other show breeders use each other's champions etc. If one particolour were produced from one dog or bitch or kennel, there would be others showing up in someone else's whelping box. Would they say anything. IN a hearbeat they would!!!! For goodness sakes if you are active in the show YOrkie world you would know that anything like that would be across both Canada and the US and on into Europe in less than a day even in the old days before computers. Now with computers it would take about 5 minutes or less.
What champion dog are you talking about? What champion line are you talking about?
Present whatever arguement you wish, there is still a very large shadow of doubt the particolour/biewer are from a purebred line of Yorkies. The YOrkie does not carry the piebald gene.

If you knew that your champion yorkie were capable of throwing a white puppy, would you let anyone else use it. I think NOT.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Anyone who has researched the pedigrees of the Parti yorkies we see advertised today, will see what lines. I don't think it's any secret, at least among people who are researching Parti lines or buying Parti puppies but it's not for me to name the lines on a public forum.

It's easy enough to find for those who really want to know. :-)

Sue White

I got your back Sue. Pistols drawn and ready to fire.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I'm not sure what you're referring to in the above statement but regardless, if this is a Breed registry and not a Color registry, why would a parti colored yorkie be any less "Pure" than a traditional colored yorkie from the same parents? The genes are in some of our dogs, it just takes the right genetic combination to bring the color out.

It's believed by some color genetic gurus, that any form of white is a result of a white or spotting gene, but who really knows.

I'd just like people to look at every side of the coin before they completely close the book.

Thanks for listening,

Sue :-)

Ya People. Remove the blinders. Your world is so much richer and more colorful when you take off the blinders.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Scientifically though, if the Maltese white coat is the result of the dominant white gene (or another complete white gene) and not the parti gene (or spotting gene), then they are not going to produce spotted dogs when crossed with a solid colored dog. I think we'd see tri colored Maltese dogs if they had a spotting gene.

I owned a dominant white mare and she only produced pure white foals or solid colored foals when bred to a solid colored stallion ... She never produced a pinto when bred to a solid.

So it may be genetically impossible for a Maltese to be the reason we see Parti colors in our Yorkies ... I'll have to do some research on that and might try to drop an e-mail to Dr. Sponenberg.

Sue

I have made that same argument.

BTW I love Morgan Horses. I have a mare that is part Morgan. She definitely has the Morgan look and is the strongest horse I have ever seen. She broke off a Rairoad Tie that she was tied to.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Julz

If you Google "Yorkshire Terrier Origin" you will find that many believe the Maltese to be one of the ingredients of the Yorkie. I, for one, believe it is.

I don't think Maltese are in the Yorkie background either now that I have had some time to look at the facts. At the time the Yorkshire Terrier was being originated Maltese were a breed for aristocracy -- not the miners, millers, weavers, etc. that were involved in the Yorkshire terrier, paisley terrier, Clydesdale terrier, and Skyes. Maltese are actually spaniels and NOT terriers.

There is also a big difference in the genes that produce all white dogs, white dogs with ticking (like a dalmation), dogs with sections of color like the Lhaso Apso and these Biewer/Parti Yorkies. There is not just a white hair gene -- it is much more complicated than that. There are many variations. There are also modifers that can change how they are presented, where the white might occur on the dog. That is how you get so many different breeds of dogs. But nowhere in the history of the Yorkshire Terrier -- the documented history -- were there any pure white, irish spotting white, white ticking, piebald white, or extreme white piebald dogs.

This is why I think as more understand the genetics of canine colors, they will not think that parti-Yorkies are a natural occurance in the breed but a mix of something else in the woodpile.

I doubt the AKC will ever allow them to be shown. There is no way to scientifically prove they are pure Yorkies as long as they carry a piebald gene. Eventually they will hire a genetics expert to document they are not pure Yorkies. To become a new breed, owners would have to show they come from at least 3 different breeds.

Some must also understand this DNA testing that is being done on litters only proves that those litters came from the two parents listed -- it says NOTHING at all about the pedigree of the mother and father! As another said, the lineage that really needs to be DNA tested to show they are not from the parents that were listed, is probably not even alive anymore.

This is an interesting topic. I read both sides and then research til my eyes swim to come up with my opinion on this. But in reality the only opinions in the dog world that are going to matter are those from official organizations and I see no waver on the firm stance YTCA has taken against the parti-colors. In fact they just updated their site with a much more thorough discussion against partis.

If they do not take this stance, then I see no end to it. Next the chocolates would want a full standing, then those that come out all gold, reddish color, all black, no markings at all, those over 7 pounds, those over 15 pounds, those with very long legs and necks, those with a short wiry coat .... and pretty soon all these would be intermixed and no one would recognize the Yorkshire Terrier we have today. It is already a problem as people are breeding dogs that are nowhere near the standard.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

This is very well said. Do you have partis??? I have just ordered two of them.

I understand that the YTCA preaches against them, but many breeds of dogs have developed from "mistakes" There are other breeds of terriers that look almost identical but they are registered and shown under a different names. I can't remember the exact breed names, but one has it's ears up and the other down, that is the only difference. I imagine the breeders of the original one were extremely upset when breeders started breeding for this "faulty trait" New breeds have to start somewhere.

If the YTCA refuses to change their standards to include them, another breed club will be developed and standards will be set and these dogs will be in the ring eventually.

I can't wait to get mine. They "ARE" rare and that is why I have had to wait a year to get one from a reputable breeder. The fact that they sell for a great deal more than traditional yorkies has created a lot of dishonest breeding.

I would not reccommend getting one from just any breeder because there are "knock offs" out there that are being passed off as "parti colored yorkies" but are actually mixes. I would not buy one that could not be traced back to the Nikko line.

New breeds were started many years ago from selecting certain breeds, crossing them over many generations, taking the get and breeding them until they breed true. And they were called a new breed with a name totally different from what the breeds that comprised them were called. Usually, you were looking at a minimum 50 years in the process of the development.
Mistakes were exactly that, mistakes and often those were from the dog next door climbing a fence.
That's exactly why the YTCA or any breed club worth their salt will not recognize a wrong colour. A wrong colour can come about for two reasons. Either they didn't exist in the first place and came about from introducing a cross or in some cases, the colour is wrong for the breed and it is actually carried in the genes somewhere. Chocolate or red is carried but are not rare to be sold for high prices, they are wrong colour.
Besides there being some big questions as to whether these really are purebreds, the Yorkie purebred fanciers are so against parti/biewer is exactly what you said in this post -- they are sold for beyond ridiculous prices as 'rare'.
In my opinion, that is no different selling parti or Biewers as rare for ridiculous prices than selling 'teacup' Yorkies for ridiculous prices.
In developing the Yorkie there were various breeds involved two being the Paisley and likely Clydesdale terrier. The fanciers that developed the Yorkie DID NOT call the resulting puppies 'rare' Clydesdale or 'rare' Paisley.
If you are going to mess with a breed, calling it a rare colour, selling for beyond silly prices is going to create problems.
As I stated before, the breed standard for the Yorkie includes the colour and will include various shades of the blue and tan.
If the Parti colour or Biewer were started out being called Biewer Terriers and sold for reasonable prices, no one would have objected. If false claims weren't made with these breeds such as they don't have LS etc that is found in Yorkies, no one would have cared.
The HUGE question that you have to ask both as a breeder and buyer of these parti colour/biewers is that are you in it for the good of the breed and are you a true fancier of the breed or are you in it because you want something that not many people own, such as collecting rare coins, and can make a lot of money charging pumped up prices for the puppies?
If you want parti coloured dogs go get a shih tzu or Papillion. You'll pay a normal price and get a nice puppy. Or if you are into particolour, at least charge reasonable prices for the puppies, get your own breed recognized as Biewer Terriers and forget the nonsense going on now.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I doubt the AKC will ever allow them to be shown. There is no way to scientifically prove they are pure Yorkies as long as they carry a piebald gene. Eventually they will hire a genetics expert to document they are not pure Yorkies. To become a new breed, owners would have to show they come from at least 3 different breeds.

Well the Biewer breeders managed to do it. Things like this just take time and perserverence. Nothing is impossible. First a breed club will have to be started and then they will take up the battle with the AKC

Some must also understand this DNA testing that is being done on litters only proves that those litters came from the two parents listed -- it says NOTHING at all about the pedigree of the mother and father! As another said, the lineage that really needs to be DNA tested to show they are not from the parents that were listed, is probably not even alive anymore.

True the Dna testing only proved who the parents were. But the lineage leads back to champions. Champions who were judged to be pure yorkies that met all of the qualifications according to the judges. ALSO the breeders were long time reputable breeders.

There was an element of trust involved.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

New breeds were started many years ago from selecting certain breeds, crossing them over many generations, taking the get and breeding them until they breed true. And they were called a new breed with a name totally different from what the breeds that comprised them were called. Usually, you were looking at a minimum 50 years in the process of the development.
Mistakes were exactly that, mistakes and often those were from the dog next door climbing a fence.
That's exactly why the YTCA or any breed club worth their salt will not recognize a wrong colour. A wrong colour can come about for two reasons. Either they didn't exist in the first place and came about from introducing a cross or in some cases, the colour is wrong for the breed and it is actually carried in the genes somewhere. Chocolate or red is carried but are not rare to be sold for high prices, they are wrong colour.
Besides there being some big questions as to whether these really are purebreds, the Yorkie purebred fanciers are so against parti/biewer is exactly what you said in this post -- they are sold for beyond ridiculous prices as 'rare'.
In my opinion, that is no different selling parti or Biewers as rare for ridiculous prices than selling 'teacup' Yorkies for ridiculous prices.
In developing the Yorkie there were various breeds involved two being the Paisley and likely Clydesdale terrier. The fanciers that developed the Yorkie DID NOT call the resulting puppies 'rare' Clydesdale or 'rare' Paisley.
If you are going to mess with a breed, calling it a rare colour, selling for beyond silly prices is going to create problems.
As I stated before, the breed standard for the Yorkie includes the colour and will include various shades of the blue and tan.
If the Parti colour or Biewer were started out being called Biewer Terriers and sold for reasonable prices, no one would have objected. If false claims weren't made with these breeds such as they don't have LS etc that is found in Yorkies, no one would have cared.
The HUGE question that you have to ask both as a breeder and buyer of these parti colour/biewers is that are you in it for the good of the breed and are you a true fancier of the breed or are you in it because you want something that not many people own, such as collecting rare coins, and can make a lot of money charging pumped up prices for the puppies?
If you want parti coloured dogs go get a shih tzu or Papillion. You'll pay a normal price and get a nice puppy. Or if you are into particolour, at least charge reasonable prices for the puppies, get your own breed recognized as Biewer Terriers and forget the nonsense going on now.

I cannot see how breeding healthy dogs of a different color is going to be detrimental to the breed. Breeding dogs smaller and smaller is not good for their health. There are many healthy "teacups" out there but they probably came from average sized parents. Those who deliberately breed 3 pound yorkies to get teacups are not the same people who just happen to get a small one. and only time will tell how many of these are indeed healthy, all of the facts aren't in yet, until we see how long these teacups live and what they die from.

Also look at the Boston terriers and pugs. they were deliberately bred to have the short noses and are still being bred today even though the breeders know that they have health issues. And bulldogs who ALWAYS have to have C sections because their heads are so large. These breeding practices are totally accepted.

Many breeds of dogs went through this same thing. the Norfolk and the Norwich terriers are one example. Breeders battled over the issue for 40 years before they were eventually accepted as two distinct breeds. There were no 3 different breeds mixed together to form a new breed. They were the same dog with two different looks.

You have no idea what the YTCA might do in the future. It takes time and perseverance and nothing is impossible. NEVER SAY NEVER.

As for getting a Shih Tzu or a Papillon, they are not yorkies. They do not have the temperament that I admire in the yorkies. they just aren't the same.

[Lorraine]

Okay, I am snowed in so have some time today. I'll give it another try.
First, you have to know and understand the whole concept of purebred registered dogs and the reason show breeders do what they do and the reason breed clubs such as YTCA exist. If you can't grasp that concept you aren't going to 'get it'.
The YOrkie was developed many years ago. Along the way there was a breed standard as there is for any purebred registered dog. Certain colours were set or accepted as part of the standard for all any breed of registered dog. .
The Particolour Yorkie, the chocolate Yorkie are not acceptable colours to the standard.
Breeders who are fanciers of a breed such as the Yorkie, know the standard, strive to breed towards that standard. Puppies we have that we feel do not meet what we want for the show rings are sold for pet spay/neutered. It might be size, too small, too big, it could be not the best topline, not a great front or rear, coat may not be silk, could look like it is going too light that sort of thing. I very strongly have doubts a particolour ever showed up legitimately in a respected show breeders whelping box.
I do not know of any of the many hundreds of breeds currently recognized by the AKC or Canadian Kennel Club in Canada that are accepted as a new breed because the are a wrong colour for another breed.
BTW show breeders do not CULL puppies if you mean they kill them. They would be given as pets or sold very low price to a suitable pet home.
Interesting that you put down show breeders but like to bring up all the Champions in a pedigree in puppies you might have. Who put the Championships there? I think show breeders did.
anyway, I have too much I am not getting done.
There is no point arguing anymore, you would have to actively participate in the show rings, immerse yourself in the breed to understand the purebred dog world.
Good luck.