Looking 4 A Parti Yorkie

[lisatodd]

i love reading all these post on your opinions. this is a very interesting subject. thanks for all our your inputs. i really appreciate it.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to get people to really think about this, so here we go .... :-)

The point that I was trying to make is: that God did not create a male and female Yorkshire terrier. History shows that the breed began by breeding other terrier type dogs together.

The white gene (parti gene in this case) is a recessive gene and will only display itself if bred to another white gene carrier. So even if history shows that the foundation dogs NEVER, EVER, bred to any color but grizzle, black/tan, black/gold, blue/gold, blue/tan, that doesn't mean that none of those "standard" colored dogs, didn't carry the recessive white gene.

I'm sure there are other lines of Parti gene carrying, Traditional colored yorkies out there but until there's a DNA test to uncover the gene or until the carrier breeds to another carrier, the Parti color will remain hidden for many generations.

Example: Say that a litter of 4 pups were born, one was parti colored. The Parti pup was given away and kept a secret; the other 3 traditional pups were sold with AKC papers. Are the 3 traditional colored AKC registered pups more "Pure" (bloodline wise) than the Parti colored pup? Both mom and dad were parti carriers and if bred together again, would produce more parti and traditional colored puppies.

These two carriers continue breeding, not to each other but to other Yorkies. They will still pass that parti gene onto 25% of their offspring - those pups just looking like a traditional colored dog. They produce a total of ... 50 pups over the years. 12-13 of those pups will be carriers. Those 12-13 carriers produce 600 pups during their lifetime - 150 of those pups are now carriers and it goes on and on. Just something to ponder, I don't think anyone can guarantee that their "Pure" yorkie doesn't carry this recessive gene, unless your dog has produced a Parti colored pup at some point in it's lifetime - in which case, it would have been bred to another Parti gene carrier to produce a Parti colored pup.

Now that Parti colored Yorkshire Terriers are allowed to be registered with AKC, in order to keep honest people honest, it may be a good idea to have several generations of any newly uncovered Parti lines, to be DNA tested. This would insure that there was no deliberate or recent "behind the kennel breeding?"

Sue White

The thing I find the most interesting in the parti colour is that they don't seem to be showing up in litters of those show breeders that have immersed themselves in Yorkies both in breeding and the show rings. If they were, you would bet we would know about it.
I am talking about breeders who know their pedigrees, the kennels and dogs in those pedigrees so far back to about the time they started in the breed. That's a lot of years of information. I am talking about show breeders that have been around 20, 30, 40 years and would have a fair number of litters and puppies under their belt. I am talking about the show breeders striving to breed to the breed standard and live and breathe Yorkies. The ones who don't breed only to fill the pet market for whatever bucks they can get.
Why would we know about it? Show breeders also have to go out on their lines, use someone else's stud for breeding and/or buy a Yorkie from another show breeder. If something was showing up in the whelping box, you would bet word would get around.
In the 10years i have been participating in the show world I have yet to hear of fellow show breeders producing a parti colour.
That's what makes me very suspicious of the origins of the particolour.
I do not believe the maltese or maltese alone were used in creating the particolour or Biewer, don't really care what you want to call them. I believe the maltese may have played a role in it, or not but I do believe the Shih Tzu was in there somewhere.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to get people to really think about this, so here we go .... .....
The white gene (parti gene in this case) is a recessive gene and will only display itself if bred to another white gene carrier. So even if history shows that the foundation dogs NEVER, EVER, bred to any color but grizzle, black/tan, black/gold, blue/gold, blue/tan, that doesn't mean that none of those "standard" colored dogs, didn't carry the recessive white gene.

I have given this a great deal of thought. I actually began reading about the other colors when I saw a chocolate that I dearly admired. I decided against that purchase and in the same research developed my opinion on the Parti-Colors as well. I am still open to new information but have not seen anything convincing that the white color was naturally occuring in Yorkshire Terriers.

The main idea of those against breeding the parti-colors is that there is no Yorkie white gene (recessive or otherwise) that would create a parti -- there is a difference in the genes that make a small white blaze that will go away in infancy and this mostly white color that is being called a parti. There is not just one gene for white hair. Too simplistic.
Here is a site that you might want to read. http://members.aol.com/CYorkie/BiewerTriColor.html It explains the genetics of the so-called white gene, actually the piebald gene. It is well worth the read. Keep in mind that this is also the opinion of the official Yorkshire Terrier Club of America -- and they are the ones that set the standards listed for AKC. So, there is an official body of expertise that has put quite a lot of time and consideration into their stance.

The point previously made about the parti's not showing up in show lines is what really got my attention. If it really has been there all along, recessive or not, then it would have shown up a lot more often along the way -- not just cropped up in profusion after the Biewer news. The piebald markings would be showing up in professional show breeders pups, and not just the obscure lines that wind up tracing back to someone with multiple breeds. I think there are honest people who think they are breeding pure bred Yorkshire terriers with parti genes. I think they are wrong and someone, somewhere along the line was either deliberately duped or maybe a little careless when breeding multiple breeds. JMO

[Lorraine]

<<The point previously made about the parti's not showing up in show lines is what really got my attention. If it really has been there all along, recessive or not, then it would have shown up a lot more often along the way -- not just cropped up in profusion after the Biewer news. The piebald markings would be showing up in professional show breeders pups, and not just the obscure lines that wind up tracing back to someone with multiple breeds. >>

Exactly. I have only been in this 10 years. I have had puppies with white blaze as you mentioned. That white blaze does blend in with the tan or gold in the mature dog that had this at birth. You do not see any white patches on the mature Yorkie.
The original claim, as I recall, the development of the Biewers, was that the breeder took those Yorkies that had the larger white blazes and bred them producing more and more white to eventually get the large white patches. I think this is nonsense as no show breeder has ever had this yet.
And we have bred dogs that as puppies had white blazes on the chests. It is not unusual.
Don't forget that some of these breeders that are producing parti colours have multiple breeds OR some are not AKC registered as such many have alternate registries such as Continental Kennel Club who has accepted registrations based on a photograph alone. What the heck is that? I have seen Yorkie/Maltese crosses that you would be hard pressed to know that isn't a Yorkie. Breed it however, and you will know what was in its background and that isn't purebred Yorkie.
Also, those AKC registered, you also have to be very cautious. Any breeder can submit the paperwork for a litter to be registered from certain AKC registered Yorkies. The truth of the paperwork lies entirely on the shoulders of the breeder. It is always accepted as truthful, until something happens or is questioned that proves it otherwise.
And that sort of thing can come from very far back and be very hard pressed to prove.
Even DNA'ing, it will show that that is the mother and father of a litter, but it would be hard pressed to go further back much into generations especially if those dogs that are grandparents or back further are no longer alive.
That cross breeding could have been brought in 15 20 years ago and once the particolour is produced, you can keep that line going but DNA'ing is not going to find the culprit way back in the pedigree where the indescretion accidental or otherwise occured.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

Even DNA'ing, it will show that that is the mother and father of a litter, but it would be hard pressed to go further back much into generations especially if those dogs that are grandparents or back further are no longer alive.
That cross breeding could have been brought in 15 20 years ago and once the particolour is produced, you can keep that line going but DNA'ing is not going to find the culprit way back in the pedigree where the indescretion accidental or otherwise occured.

You make a good point. When I decided to look into the colors, I gave viewpoints from people who had been breeding and showing their dogs more weight. If people that had been showing for 10, 20, 30 years had never seen a piebald gene show up, then chances are great that it was a gene from another breed that gave us Parti's.

[Pinehaven]

Let's be honest ... if you had been breeding and showing for 30 years and you have a well known champion line of Yorkies, do you think you would announce to the world that your two champions just produced a parti colored yorkie? That could very well be the end of your very popular stud dogs breeding career!

The most prolific line of Parti yorkies today (had something like 42 litters DNA'd before being allowed to be registered with AKC) originated from a champion dogs bloodline, with a kennel prefix that been around for about 40 years. This one one champion dog's name, appears multiple times in the majority of today's Parti colored dogs, 3-4-5 generations back.

Sue White

[tegamom1]

Well if this is the case as you say, what dog or champion bloodline are you talking about? It is only right to name this dog and let someone who has been involved in reputable show breeding for years answer this accusation.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Let's be honest ... if you had been breeding and showing for 30 years and you have a well known champion line of Yorkies, do you think you would announce to the world that your two champions just produced a parti colored yorkie? That could very well be the end of your very popular stud dogs breeding career!

The most prolific line of Parti yorkies today (had something like 42 litters DNA'd before being allowed to be registered with AKC) originated from a champion dogs bloodline, with a kennel prefix that been around for about 40 years. This one one champion dog's name, appears multiple times in the majority of today's Parti colored dogs, 3-4-5 generations back.

Sue White

I would venture to say you do not know the world of show dogs and show breeders. That's why I said that many other show breeders use each other's champions etc. If one particolour were produced from one dog or bitch or kennel, there would be others showing up in someone else's whelping box. Would they say anything. IN a hearbeat they would!!!! For goodness sakes if you are active in the show YOrkie world you would know that anything like that would be across both Canada and the US and on into Europe in less than a day even in the old days before computers. Now with computers it would take about 5 minutes or less.
What champion dog are you talking about? What champion line are you talking about?
Present whatever arguement you wish, there is still a very large shadow of doubt the particolour/biewer are from a purebred line of Yorkies. The YOrkie does not carry the piebald gene.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by tegamom1

Well if this is the case as you say, what dog or champion bloodline are you talking about? It is only right to name this dog and let someone who has been involved in reputable show breeding for years answer this accusation.

Anyone who has researched the pedigrees of the Parti yorkies we see advertised today, will see what lines. I don't think it's any secret, at least among people who are researching Parti lines or buying Parti puppies but it's not for me to name the lines on a public forum.

It's easy enough to find for those who really want to know. :-)

Sue White

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Anyone who has researched the pedigrees of the Parti yorkies we see advertised today, will see what lines. I don't think it's any secret, at least among people who are researching Parti lines or buying Parti puppies but it's not for me to name the lines on a public forum.

It's easy enough to find for those who really want to know. :-)

Sue White

I can only guess my arguments were found to have good reasoning.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

I can only guess my arguments were found to have good reasoning.

I'm not sure what you're referring to in the above statement but regardless, if this is a Breed registry and not a Color registry, why would a parti colored yorkie be any less "Pure" than a traditional colored yorkie from the same parents? The genes are in some of our dogs, it just takes the right genetic combination to bring the color out.

It's believed by some color genetic gurus, that any form of white is a result of a white or spotting gene, but who really knows.

I'd just like people to look at every side of the coin before they completely close the book.

Thanks for listening,

Sue :-)

[Snow Yorkies]

Mr. Ed. Bootman of Halifax, England furnished an article on the origin of the breed, for publication in the "English Shopkeeper", which that journal, "feeling the importance of all facts relating to the origin of the breed", published as follows: "Swift's Old Crab, a cross-bred Scotch Terrier, Kershaw's Kitty, a Skye, and an Old English Terrier bitch.

Here is a picture of a couple of Skye Terriers. Does anyone else see white???

I am not going to get into this great debate over all of this controversy here. I have Biewers and I am extremely proud of them. I get that your love is just as strong for your yorkies and fighting for the standard that is set for them. I am sure this was also upsetting to the breeders that had pure bred Paisleys, Clydesdales, Scotch Terriers, ect., to develop the Yorkshire Terrier.

I can't explain all there is to know about the Biewers and/or the parties, as I wasn't there at the beginning. I just know that they are here along with hundreds of other new breeds...

Good luck to all that are for and opposed to find in your hearts what is right for you!!

[YorkieShadow]

First off I love the Biewers and Parti yorkies , I think they are beautiful and would love to have one some day.

When I had first heard about the Biewers and Parti yorkies I had brought them up to a few Yorkshire terrier breeders in my area. They state them as a mix. even after I told them what I had heard and read about them. They say they are not the true Yorkie Breed and are not AKC standard and would not even talk to me about it.
I still love the looks of them and would love to have one.

[Julz]

If you Google "Yorkshire Terrier Origin" you will find that many believe the Maltese to be one of the ingredients of the Yorkie. I, for one, believe it is.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Julz

If you Google "Yorkshire Terrier Origin" you will find that many believe the Maltese to be one of the ingredients of the Yorkie. I, for one, believe it is.

Scientifically though, if the Maltese white coat is the result of the dominant white gene (or another complete white gene) and not the parti gene (or spotting gene), then they are not going to produce spotted dogs when crossed with a solid colored dog. I think we'd see tri colored Maltese dogs if they had a spotting gene.

I owned a dominant white mare and she only produced pure white foals or solid colored foals when bred to a solid colored stallion ... She never produced a pinto when bred to a solid.

So it may be genetically impossible for a Maltese to be the reason we see Parti colors in our Yorkies ... I'll have to do some research on that and might try to drop an e-mail to Dr. Sponenberg.

Sue