opinions ~ pedigree vs. pedigree - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Sugar's Mom · 10-19-2007, 06:14 AM

The thing of it is, she is not selling him to you as a show prospect but thinks he could be. No guarantees. It is a chance you take like I did on my last little girl. She COULD be a show prospect and was sold to me as a POSSIBLE and she has the look so it's up to me. Now, if you do not want to take that chance that he could or could not be, then you just need to wait and purchase one that is already six or seven months old and let me tell you, they are hard to come by. Most of the show breeders that have a show prospect are going to keep them and who can blame them. My opinion and it may be wrong, is that if the breeder keeps the dog till it's six or seven months old then puts it up for sell, i would wonder why she is not keeping it for her/himself to show? Sometimes that happens because of too many dogs with the same bloodline or something. I don't know.

crystalsmom · 10-19-2007, 06:33 AM

Sugars Mom has a good point. A six or seven month old show dog as your first is really hard to find unless you know this breeder really well. I don't remember if she is close enough to watch progress but I hope so and see if she would go 16 weeks. That's not going to make alot of difference but when you are starting out you have to gamble once in awhile and your changes might be better this way and that way you might know if she is serious about you taking a prospect. It's six of one, half dozen of the other and I think the most important thing in all of it is having a breeder you know well and that doesn't happen over night. I could never in a million years pick out a puppy, they are all cute. Have you met her at the shows, if not make a point to do that as much as you can.

Trish in Calif · 10-19-2007, 06:38 AM

Kathy Murphy is a wonderful breeder and has some of the top bloodlines in the country. I would buy a 12 week old puppy from a great bloodline as opposed to a 6 or 8 mo. old from a lesser line. I would also buy the one Kathy likes best as no one is as good a judge of how a dog will turn out as his experienced breeder. Just my humble opinion. Also, if a breeder is going to keep a puppy until it's 6 months or so and deems it show quality, you can expect to pay 2 to 4 times as much for the same dog.
Trish in California

crystalsmom · 10-19-2007, 06:41 AM

We both posted at the same time. I'm not sure I like the fact that she is letting this pup go full registration. I wish she said she would limit it and then remove once it shows promise. I'm really leary of this now. What do the rest of you think??

Mardelin · 10-19-2007, 06:44 AM

I stand by my advice......I know I waited for my first show prospect for awhile...My breeder (very reputable show breeder) kept my pup until 6 months of age, any reputable would. A good contract would protect you, the dog and herself. Junior Handlers go in with good representations of the breed too....

Again it is my advice....Alyssa, I only wish you lived closer.....I'd work with you. The fact that your immediate plans are for Junior Handling should not make any difference on the quality of the dog......still a big investment.

AMD · 10-19-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystalsmom

We both posted at the same time. I'm not sure I like the fact that she is letting this pup go full registration. I wish she said she would limit it and then remove once it shows promise. I'm really leary of this now. What do the rest of you think??

I didn't know you could remove a limit...

She said full reg, no co-ownership, and if he doesn't turn out, I can still show him, or neuter him and sell him as a pet...would that make any difference?

Mardelin · 10-19-2007, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystalsmom

We both posted at the same time. I'm not sure I like the fact that she is letting this pup go full registration. I wish she said she would limit it and then remove once it shows promise. I'm really leary of this now. What do the rest of you think??

I don't know how other breeders operate or their contracts....I can only offer advice and hope it helps her make her decision....It's tough because I'm sure Alyssa's emotions are into play......I know mine were.....it's hard not to make a decision with ones heart.

I can only offer advice based on my experiences of being on both sides; first at purchasing my own first show dog and now being being a exhibitor breeder.

AMD · 10-19-2007, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I stand by my advice......I know I waited for my first show prospect for awhile...My breeder (very reputable show breeder) kept my pup until 6 months of age, any reputable would. A good contract would protect you, the dog and herself. Junior Handlers go in with good representations of the breed too....

Again it is my advice....Alyssa, I only wish you lived closer.....I'd work with you. The fact that your immediate plans are for Junior Handling should not make any difference on the quality of the dog......still a big investment.

Me toooo! I would love to come and have you teach me..I need lots of teachin'. lol hmmm looking for a summer assistant?..jk

crystalsmom · 10-19-2007, 06:57 AM

Yes, I can see Alyssa's heart is longing for this pup. Mary I agree with you and always do about the 6 months and even that way you miss the worry of liver shunt showing up in the pup. But I can see all sides and I don't like the fact a breeder would gamble with full registration and some times you have to lead with your head but not necessarily the first time.....I didn't

AMD · 10-19-2007, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystalsmom

Yes, I can see Alyssa's heart is longing for this pup. Mary I agree with you and always do about the 6 months and even that way you miss the worry of liver shunt showing up in the pup. But I can see all sides and I don't like the fact a breeder would gamble with full registration and some times you have to lead with your head but not necessarily the first time.....I didn't

I know..I do really want this pup...I've wanted one for a almost a year now...

I'm so glad I have you guys though. I want to do what's best, but it's just so hard to tell. . .hearts are strong against heads...

Mardelin · 10-19-2007, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMD

I know..I do really want this pup...I've wanted one for a almost a year now...

I'm so glad I have you guys though. I want to do what's best, but it's just so hard to tell. . .hearts are strong against heads...

I know this is a hard decision you have to make....you have so many things to think of....

Have you obtained your parents support on this matter....that would be your # one priority...since without it you can't proceed any further?

Trish in Calif · 10-19-2007, 07:37 AM

With that pedigree behind the dog, at 6mo. you would be paying at least $3,000. and up if the breeder is sure it's show quality. I'm guessing she if offering a younger puppy at a much reduced price. Buying a show dog is always a gamble. Most show breeders will keep a puppy or two for them- selves and at 6 to 8 mos. sell the one they like the least. If the breeder is trying to get a bitch to show, it's not uncommon to sell the males and not keep them ,tying up kennel space. A 5 pound male puppy who will be a nice representation of the breed will sell to a pet home just as fast, so the breeder has no incentive to keep it until it's 6 months. I do agree, if I was selling him, I would hold on to full AKC reg. until I knew what your intentions are.
That said, this breeder is one who produces some magnificent show dogs. You have a better chance with a younger puppy from Kathy Murphy then a guaranteed show quality dog from a lot of others. Show quality is in the eye of the beholder, and a lot of dogs with Champion in front of there name aren't my idea of a show dog. Just the best of what is in the ring at the time they won.
Trish In California

YorkieRose · 10-19-2007, 08:09 AM

At some point you are going to have to take a chance..since JR showmanship does not concentrate on conformation..it is your handling abilites, correct, then you have nothing to lose? IF regular conformation is your only goal, then you are taking a big chance...especially since your parents do not want to spend alot on a pet...

Remember, what one breeder may think is showable, another will not...seriously, have you ever considered starting with another breed? Many breeds can be picked at 12 weeks with confidence they will mature as a show pup...but not the Yorkie...out of the mouths of many judges of late.."Yorkies are the most difficult breed to judge"...that is due to what you see at 12 weeks is most often not what you see at 12 months..
Even a toy dog like a Maltese is so much easier to finish...they are suppose to be white..how many people have a difficult time deciding what is white and what is not...Good luck

PS..if this breeder is known for producing terrific show dogs, why are these being placed at a pet age, but maybe showable??

Trish in Calif · 10-19-2007, 08:31 AM

Alyssa,
If a breeder keeps a puppy until it is 6 or 8 months and it turns out to be show qualty ,then that breeder will have her pick of show homes who are experinced at showing and have finished championships on dogs before. Your compatition to purchase a good show dog is going to be tought. Only you can deside if you want to take a chance on a younger dog. As you can show it in junior even if it won't become a champion, you have the fun of showing and a wonderful companion. After you have sucesfully shown in juniors with your dog, breeders will be more willing to take a chance on selling you a show dog.
Many, many people aproch breeders wanting an animal to show and don't stick with it. So you can see why they are leary of selling to someone without a history of showing.
Just the fact Kathy Murphy is willing to let you have full registration means she has faith in you.
Kathy partners with Betty Ann Durrer on many of her dogs. They both have people standing in line to buy one of there dogs to add to there breeding program.

YorkieRose · 10-19-2007, 08:33 AM

Okay..in that case buy it...somebody has to make a decision..LOL

10-19-2007, 06:33 AM	#17
crystalsmom Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,946	Sugars Mom has a good point. A six or seven month old show dog as your first is really hard to find unless you know this breeder really well. I don't remember if she is close enough to watch progress but I hope so and see if she would go 16 weeks. That's not going to make alot of difference but when you are starting out you have to gamble once in awhile and your changes might be better this way and that way you might know if she is serious about you taking a prospect. It's six of one, half dozen of the other and I think the most important thing in all of it is having a breeder you know well and that doesn't happen over night. I could never in a million years pick out a puppy, they are all cute. Have you met her at the shows, if not make a point to do that as much as you can. __________________

10-19-2007, 06:41 AM	#19
crystalsmom Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,946	We both posted at the same time. I'm not sure I like the fact that she is letting this pup go full registration. I wish she said she would limit it and then remove once it shows promise. I'm really leary of this now. What do the rest of you think?? __________________

10-19-2007, 06:44 AM	#20
Mardelin Mardelin Yorkshire Terriers Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: California Posts: 14,776	I stand by my advice......I know I waited for my first show prospect for awhile...My breeder (very reputable show breeder) kept my pup until 6 months of age, any reputable would. A good contract would protect you, the dog and herself. Junior Handlers go in with good representations of the breed too.... Again it is my advice....Alyssa, I only wish you lived closer.....I'd work with you. The fact that your immediate plans are for Junior Handling should not make any difference on the quality of the dog......still a big investment. __________________ Mardelin *Yorkshire* *Terriers*

10-19-2007, 06:57 AM	#24
crystalsmom Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,946	Yes, I can see Alyssa's heart is longing for this pup. Mary I agree with you and always do about the 6 months and even that way you miss the worry of liver shunt showing up in the pup. But I can see all sides and I don't like the fact a breeder would gamble with full registration and some times you have to lead with your head but not necessarily the first time.....I didn't __________________

10-19-2007, 08:09 AM	#28
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	pup At some point you are going to have to take a chance..since JR showmanship does not concentrate on conformation..it is your handling abilites, correct, then you have nothing to lose? IF regular conformation is your only goal, then you are taking a big chance...especially since your parents do not want to spend alot on a pet... Remember, what one breeder may think is showable, another will not...seriously, have you ever considered starting with another breed? Many breeds can be picked at 12 weeks with confidence they will mature as a show pup...but not the Yorkie...out of the mouths of many judges of late.."Yorkies are the most difficult breed to judge"...that is due to what you see at 12 weeks is most often not what you see at 12 months.. Even a toy dog like a Maltese is so much easier to finish...they are suppose to be white..how many people have a difficult time deciding what is white and what is not...Good luck PS..if this breeder is known for producing terrific show dogs, why are these being placed at a pet age, but maybe showable?? Last edited by YorkieRose; 10-19-2007 at 08:12 AM.

10-19-2007, 06:14 AM	#16
Sugar's Mom BANNED! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 9,248	The thing of it is, she is not selling him to you as a show prospect but thinks he could be. No guarantees. It is a chance you take like I did on my last little girl. She COULD be a show prospect and was sold to me as a POSSIBLE and she has the look so it's up to me. Now, if you do not want to take that chance that he could or could not be, then you just need to wait and purchase one that is already six or seven months old and let me tell you, they are hard to come by. Most of the show breeders that have a show prospect are going to keep them and who can blame them. My opinion and it may be wrong, is that if the breeder keeps the dog till it's six or seven months old then puts it up for sell, i would wonder why she is not keeping it for her/himself to show? Sometimes that happens because of too many dogs with the same bloodline or something. I don't know.

10-19-2007, 06:38 AM	#18
Trish in Calif Yorkie Yakker Join Date: May 2007 Location: Walnut Creek,CA Posts: 41	Kathy Murphy is a wonderful breeder and has some of the top bloodlines in the country. I would buy a 12 week old puppy from a great bloodline as opposed to a 6 or 8 mo. old from a lesser line. I would also buy the one Kathy likes best as no one is as good a judge of how a dog will turn out as his experienced breeder. Just my humble opinion. Also, if a breeder is going to keep a puppy until it's 6 months or so and deems it show quality, you can expect to pay 2 to 4 times as much for the same dog. Trish in California

10-19-2007, 07:37 AM	#27
Trish in Calif Yorkie Yakker Join Date: May 2007 Location: Walnut Creek,CA Posts: 41	With that pedigree behind the dog, at 6mo. you would be paying at least $3,000. and up if the breeder is sure it's show quality. I'm guessing she if offering a younger puppy at a much reduced price. Buying a show dog is always a gamble. Most show breeders will keep a puppy or two for them- selves and at 6 to 8 mos. sell the one they like the least. If the breeder is trying to get a bitch to show, it's not uncommon to sell the males and not keep them ,tying up kennel space. A 5 pound male puppy who will be a nice representation of the breed will sell to a pet home just as fast, so the breeder has no incentive to keep it until it's 6 months. I do agree, if I was selling him, I would hold on to full AKC reg. until I knew what your intentions are. That said, this breeder is one who produces some magnificent show dogs. You have a better chance with a younger puppy from Kathy Murphy then a guaranteed show quality dog from a lot of others. Show quality is in the eye of the beholder, and a lot of dogs with Champion in front of there name aren't my idea of a show dog. Just the best of what is in the ring at the time they won. Trish In California

10-19-2007, 08:31 AM	#29
Trish in Calif Yorkie Yakker Join Date: May 2007 Location: Walnut Creek,CA Posts: 41	Alyssa, If a breeder keeps a puppy until it is 6 or 8 months and it turns out to be show qualty ,then that breeder will have her pick of show homes who are experinced at showing and have finished championships on dogs before. Your compatition to purchase a good show dog is going to be tought. Only you can deside if you want to take a chance on a younger dog. As you can show it in junior even if it won't become a champion, you have the fun of showing and a wonderful companion. After you have sucesfully shown in juniors with your dog, breeders will be more willing to take a chance on selling you a show dog. Many, many people aproch breeders wanting an animal to show and don't stick with it. So you can see why they are leary of selling to someone without a history of showing. Just the fact Kathy Murphy is willing to let you have full registration means she has faith in you. Kathy partners with Betty Ann Durrer on many of her dogs. They both have people standing in line to buy one of there dogs to add to there breeding program.

10-19-2007, 08:33 AM	#30
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	pup Okay..in that case buy it...somebody has to make a decision..LOL