Rosemark responds
 

Folks,

Just to set the record straight, I sold a show prospect with a full registration to a person who showed him to his championship which requires a full registration. I do not sell pets with full registrations. Unfortunately, I trusted this person do the right thing and have learned that I will no longer sell show dogs without remaining as a co-owner so that I can retain control over where my dogs end up. I disliked the fact that other name breeders retained this type of control, but now I understand that it's necessary to retain control of where my dogs end up. A quality breeder's biggest fear is that our dogs will end up poorly cared for or in a puppy mill.

I'm happy that you love your new boy, and I do hope that you breed him wisely and for the betterment of the breed. Marshall is capable of producing wonderful puppies when bred to a quality bitch and if you understand what qualities he brings the table.

It really angers me when things like this happen. It makes it extremely difficult for newer breeders who would never betray trust to obtain quality dogs from quality breeders.

I am so sorry that you had to find out in this way what happened to your lovely boy.

No matter what a contract says, there are some underlying principles and ethics involved with breeding, showing, and ownership of all dogs.

Here in Canada it is pretty common to sell on co-ownership if the dog is on full/open registration.

It's very common here too, Gail. As Rosanne said she didn't like those ties. However, because of this particular situation, she's rethinking this, which I know goes against her character, because she is very trusting.

I feel exactly the same way, and I feel for breeders who would like to get really great breeding stock, this will just make it tougher for those who are truly motivated do what's right.

I'm sorry Roseanne you've been betrayed by someone you trusted. Thank you though for coming on and explaining this situation. I just knew in my heart, that you did not approve of Marshall's rehoming this way. But also, knew others here that didn't know of your integrity and might not be aware of your good reputation.

I still can not wrap my mind around the fact that the new owner had the gall to come on here and brag about her back door acquisition of your boy.:eek:

Rosanne
I totally know how you feel. I thought many times I could trust a person and everytime end up being used.
There is a woman who has done just that to me and will be praying on many of you. Anyone who wants the her name may PM me and I will be more than happy to help you. It is a BAD sitution and I know for a fact she is praying on the next stupid person. She comees off nice a wonderful BUT I cane give you a nightmare story.
We all need to protect our names and our wonderful dogs.
God welling you boy will be used with care and will be loved!
Sparklingbluyorkies.com

Yes and Crest wing's thread is now closed. Gosh I wonder why:rolleyes:

It was rather disingenuous to introduce to us her "new" CH and say she was looking one day for puppies in the ring. If you go to her website she already has a pup listed as being from the Marshall breeding. That means over two months ago she got that dog, or at least had one of her bitches bred by him. And apparently she is a Parti breeder too.

Perhaps she thought no one would notice. eh?

with the Internet it definitely is a small small world we live in.

Believe me, I wasn't finished posting on that thread but wasn't surprised when the OP had it closed. WTH was she thinking.....did she think we are all so ignorant here, that we would just congratulate her and go on? Did she not think the way she acquired this boy was wrong.....that she wouldn't be exposed?

I saw her puppy page yesterday too and was appalled at what I read:mad:

Unfortunately, she's not the only one to blame. :rolleyes: (Crestwing)

You're right, there is a least one other. Was Diane Henry aware the friend of hers was selling Marshall to Crestwing?

Stephanie Miller was sold Marshall without a contract. Stephanie made a deal with Susan to co-own Marshall because Stephanie felt that Susan had more quality bitches than she did (I believe she only has one female). Marshall was to live with Susan and she was to provide Stephanie with one show prospect out of him per year. He was in both their names for several months. Then a week or two ago Stephanie gave up rights and Marshall was transferred to Susan entirely. He is now in her name only, as I understand it. He is an incredibly nice dog, and I do hope things are done right by him and the Rosemark line.

So, Diane Henry sold Marshall to Stephanie Miller without a contract?

Absolutely, and that isn't all off it. All of what will be brought to YTCA's attention. Diane will be dealt with.

But, there is so much more.

As do I, hope this boy is not yet again rehomed, to resire again. My question is with all the reselling of this dog, did not at least one new owner contact the original breeder of this champ? Like there are a lot of questions I'd like to know about the lines, the health, the tendencies of this sire and what he throws.

You resell a dog without a contract? Why?

This has opened my eyes even more. I will never ever sell a breeding dog without co-ownership.

One of the first things that needs to be done is pull her name off the Bluebonnet website. I still can't get over she was the "go to" person linked for rescue. Even the the most common rescue criteria ( a contract for one) weren't met placing this boy. Her name, this situation has the potential to be a bad mark against exhibitor/breeders and rescues!

Ok for me that is it. The club knows, and will investigate and do the necessary thing,based on their investigation.

I'm just so sorry that I never got a chance to put tags on the other thread:(

Once again Roseann I don't know you or you me, but I'm appalled at what happened. My heart goes out to you

First of all, Rosanne, it was an honor to meet you. Your pups are so loved and well cared for. I know this must be heartbreaking. Let's hope Crestwing will do the right thing and breed wisely. I hope she does not mix this Champion line with her Parti's. Mixing the breed is Not Ethical Breeding. And I hope YTCA holds the responsible parties accountable. Again Rosanne, my heart goes out to you. Lissette

I used to never understand why breeders co-owned, and at one time, would never consider co-ownership. But over the years I have come to understand the whys and how comes and totally agree with this practice. I have had only one negative experience with a co-ownership and will never recommend this breeder/exhibitor to anyone.

I feel badly for the breeder of this champion to know that he has fallen into the hands of a person that breeds for color faults.

:thumbup::thumbup:

I certainly hope that the Bluebonnet Club does infact do something about this or I feel like they'll loose all credibility because it is stated in the YTCA Code of Conduct.

I appreciate Rosanne coming on and telling us her side of the story. I think and hope that this situation has opened her eyes and that she does infact start protecting the lines that she has spent years to develope.

I also hope that all the parties involved really understand what part they played in this. It goes against everything that they're suppose to stand for. How can other members of the YTCA promote "ethical, responsible, and to the standard breeding" when they aren't doing it themselves.

Strangely enough, I feel like Crestwing is at the bottom of the pile here. Of course people are going to want to purchase a Champion to add to their breeding stock - who wouldn't? Sad that the person who actually Championed this beautiful dog was the one to start this whole thing in motion. And to be listed as the contact for rescue... :rolleyes:

Not only do breeders have the responsibility to protect their lines for themselves but they owe it to those that have purchased their dogs - show or pet!




1) Assistance and encouragement shall be willingly offered by members to Show Novices and others needing advice and guidance. The welfare of the breed will be in their hands in the future.


2) All dogs will be kept under safe and sanitary conditions, be given proper nutrition, protection, and maximum health care including regular inoculations as advised by the member's veterinarian.


3) Healthy spacing between litters will be a priority and unspayed bitches will be protected from unplanned matings. Bitches will in no case be bred before their second heat or before they are at least eighteen (18) months of age, whichever comes first, nor be placed at risk by an unreasonable number of cesarean sections and then only with the concurrence of a veterinarian.


4) Puppies will not be sold or consigned to pet stores, agents, or other commercial enterprises nor sold to disreputable breeders, and neither puppies, adult dogs, nor stud services will be offered as prizes or for raffles.


5) Prospective buyers will be screened as thoroughly as possible to determine their intent, as well as their ability and interest in providing a safe, adequate, loving environment and a long term relationship with a puppy or adult dog.


6) All puppies and dogs offered for sale will be sold with written sales agreements to include clear terms and conditions and be signed by the seller and buyer. The contract will request that the seller be contacted in the event that at any time the owner is unable to keep the dog, it will be the obligation of the seller to assist in the placement of the dog in question.

7) Purchasers will be required to neuter/spay all puppies sold as pets. If specified in the written sales contract, the seller will promptly release limited registration forms upon receipt of a veterinarian's certification of such spaying or neutering.

8) All puppies leaving the breeders possession will be a minimum of twelve (12) weeks of age to facilitate adequate socialization as well as appropriate emotional and temperament development through interaction with siblings, dam and other dogs.

9) Breeders will provide puppy buyers with written details of feeding, general care, date and types of a minimum of two (2) inoculations, as well as dates of wormings, grooming instructions, etc. and be available to offer future advice as needed.

10) Stud service will be offered only by and to AKC Full Registered, or registered with an AKC approved foreign registry, healthy, mature dogs and bitches, respectively, and only of sound temperament. The dogs and bitches should be free of serious congenital and hereditary defects. Stud service will be refused for any mating which is considered to not be in the best interest of the breed which includes dogs and bitches with Q Registration in their pedigrees, and dogs and bitches of any color, or combination of colors not specified in the standard. Members will not sell dogs of such colors as exotic or rare.

11) Animals recently exposed to the risks of infectious diseases and bitches with nursing whelp will not be exhibited.

12) Members realize that they represent the dog fancy in general and Yorkshire Terriers specifically to the general public. Members will act in a professional and good sportsmanlike manner at all times and will respect the rules of hotels/motels, other show sites and of all show sponsors.

Since there appears to be some unfamiliarity on how business is handled in breed clubs as well as the YTCA, there are steps to be followed.

The clubs operate under by-laws and protocol; so the necessary steps must be followed; board members and members must meet, discuss and vote on issues. It will be taken care of by the membership.


While Diane is listed as rescue, she does not operate a rescue in the true sense of the word. There are times members, or others may come into access of a dog that is either a stray, a dog that has been found, etc. She is Bluebonnet Contact, takes the dog in, has it vetted, makes sure that all it's needs are met (at the expense of Bluebonnet) and exhausts all possibilities to contact owners. However, during this time frame she's in contact with proper rescues to find a foster home for the dog.

[QUOTE=cj125;3253139][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]
I also hope that all the parties involved really understand what part they played in this. It goes against everything that they're suppose to stand for. How can other members of the YTCA promote "ethical, responsible, and to the standard breeding" when they aren't doing it themselves.
QUOTE]

There are good and bad in every club, that small % bad does not represent the majority of said clubs and should and does not take away from what the club represents.

I don't understand why so many people look to YTCA as a problem solving organization. Where are the people that are responsible? This dog is not home. Why isn't this the future of the dog being talked about? Why isn't this women agreeing to return him, in due respect? That is what should be done. Try to salvage the pieces.

Something terrible happened, yes. Moving forward, what will be done about it? Years of ethics get dumped in the drain because somebody wants puppies? You don't get good offspring just because you bought a finished dog. If he was a great producer, would he have left the breeder to begin with? I'm not saying this to speak badly about this line. Being a champion does not make you a good producer.

There are many caveats to this nightmare.
Sure this is a lesson to people that don't know about back door breeding. But this kind of thing has been going on for years. Part of the glory of having a CH is knowing that you know everything about the lines. YOU know where the tail set is off, the flawless textured coat, the fearless wild side etc. You know the line better than anything else. You can't know about improving it if you don't know what's in back of it. Sure you can breed him to expect puppies better than SOME yorkies have produced. MAYBE you will be lucky, maybe. But at the end of the day, you are not getting anything better for "the ring" or the breed (which is the same thing) by doing this. Selling puppies with a champion sire will bring more a little more money. Only a couple more dollars, on a very good day if you're lucky. Maybe if you do a nice website and all that jazz.

But putting something in the ring is a lie. Most people that have the ethics also get the education to know the work it involves. It's not just mating a finished dog. I resent that statement, it implies that all we have to do is breed.

Who wants a dog that the breeder would not sell to you? What a dishonorable way to obtain any dog. They eat, breath, sleep. They live. They are not a material possession. Somebody spent more years eat, breath sleeping that dog. I wouldn't sleep another night knowing that my dog was being used like that. This is horrible. I'm sorry if the buyer was deceived in buying the dog.

This is why you have contracts. However when you have to look at a contract, you know it was wrong to begin with.

I'm sorry for Marshall. If the new person must keep him, he should be neutered. This is only right. Preserve the pedigree. There are too many dogs that need homes now. Let experienced people breed the way it should be for show prospects. This dogs pedigree lost the most important part. He's only one dog, what has be been proven for?

All champions don't have to be bred. Sounds like he's been bred plenty already.

ELLE
Great post, Breeding is more than putting 2 dogs together, It takes years of studying Pedigrees, long nights and many many tears!!!!!!!!!
Then there is no guarantee,the most we how for are healthy happy babies.
Champions do not make Champions. Dillion is beautiful and I hope and Pray for the best for him.
sparklingbluyorkies.com

[QUOTE=Elle;3253847] Why isn't this women agreeing to return him, in due respect? That is what should be done. Try to salvage the pieces.

Who wants a dog that the breeder would not sell to you?

Here is what i think. It is a true question of scruples. Before entering into any verbal or for that matter written agreement with the second owner of Marshall. Why a) didn't she ask about the contract, that would have allowed him to be sold? and b) why not ask the original breeder if she knew that her dog was going to her for breeding purposes and was she okay with that?

This last owner is a parti breeder if her website is accurate. So will she use the CH of standard color to breed into her parti program?

She should offer to sell him back to the original breeder. Or come to some sort of other arrangement. I can;t fathom that this original breeder envisioned her dog to have been rehomed so many times.

For shame on all the previous owners. Good grief, you can get the "studs" sperm through artifical insemination, you don't have to rehome this wonderful boy.

Is this boy just a "commodity" to push here or there? Where is the love ? Where is the willingness to do the best to give your boy the bestest type of home?

So the original owner was naive, and trusting, and didn't put co-ownership in her contract.

Did that original purchaser really believe the breeder would be okay or fine with her reselling this dog?

I am very saddened by this story. My only hope is that Marshall will not yet again be shunted to another breeding home.

I hate to tell this, but co-ownership on a dog does not protect your line. Your better off on a bitch, but any litter can be registered w/ DNA testing of the puppies (if the dog has been DNA tested) even if the dog owner does not sign. The only way to protect your lines is not to sell an intact dog.

Nope the only way to protect your lines is only deal with people that are trustworthy, have integrity and understand what it takes to build a line; blood, sweat and tears.

Trust can and have been broken, therefore the line is not protected.