learning question

[cj125]

Originally Posted by tegamom1

After reading post after post, I can not sit idly by and listen to this any longer without commenting. Yes, I feel your post have definitely had a rude and offensive tone, along with uncalled for "ringside gossip". Mary and Donna are respected, reputable and ethical exhibitors. Both have been mentored by top long time exhibitor/breeders here and in Canada and have championed numerous Yorkies. You come on with what seems to be an accusing air, no one knowing who you are and after this, probably not caring! Where your dogs come from is of no concern to anyone as long as they are healthy and excellent representatives of the breed. If you are new to the show ring, I would highly suggest you sit back and take a breather...This is not the way to gain favor or make friends in the show world. One should be grateful there are exhibitors like these ladies that are willing to befriend and help.

Wow - Thank You Mary Ann!!! I've just been reading this off and on while cleaning and I must say that I was getting a little unnerved by the "tone" this person was taking.

Originally Posted by LuvndemYorkies

sorry i guess emails tones can easily take on the tone of how the person reading them interperts them.
I have European Lines myself. That seems to be a real thorn in your side. Seems the breeders here take it as disrespect when they find you are trying to get in the breed and you have bought from European Breeders, kinda like a buy american boycott type of attitude you find.
But I love the dogs and I have meet the breeders in person and went over my dogs before i got them. Not sight unseen.
I do plan to CH them and they will be health tested before i spend the money showing them. Then and only then will they be bred. but as far as finding a mentor here, that will depend on if someone is open to the fact that I have imported mine and i am not looking to buy their lines.

No, I don't think coming on here without introducing yourself and giving some sort of insight as to why you're asking some personal questions is being misunderstood. You were offensive and rude! You were demanding and judgemental! You were disrespectful! These ladies have been on this forum for years and for you to come on here and question them about how long they've been newbies or experts.... You're the one with the ATTITUDE!

And the reason you can't find out too much about some of their lines is because they don't need to advertise it on the internet! If you really did some researching you would be able to figure out a few things.

I don't know why you have an issue with your dogs being from Europe. I have never heard anyone say anything negative on here about Eur/Mex/Can lines. They have beautiful lines.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by topknot

Yes, the ones as a majority in Memphis were on the little smaller size. I do not breed for the smaller ones, but that is what I have been getting lately myself. I have and still sitting on a couple hoping they will turn out bigger than they are. I still have hope. I am also glad that I now have my Cha-Cha, since I think she will be a little bigger - probably 5.5 - 6 pounds when she is finished.
You can go to one show and there will be smaller sized and other shows have them more up on leg and a bit bigger. Just depends, from what I have seen. It comes and goes.

Pat, did you stay for the ball?? Everyone had a great time!

The ball was terrific..caught about the last 25%..and we had a Bday party for Georgette all rolled into one...

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Please correct me if I am wrong..but as I recall, the French came to the Scott's to incorporate Stratford bloodlines in theirs..

I think it was both...from what I understand....

[YorkieRose]

One of the best examples of a breeder recognizing the benefits of using other breeders quality studs is Bobbie Rothenbach. She went out for stud service to obtain Gator by using Renee's Charger...thus the name Renee'Gade...which everyone already knows...

[bjh]

One thing that bothers me just a little is when a show breeder says they will only breed champion to champion and then low and behold you start seeing dogs in the ring that are have not been bred champion to champion, only the sire is a champion. I have no problem with breeding champion males to quality bitches that are not championed. I just wish show breeders would be honest and just say they are very selective who they breed their dogs to rather than making blanket statements.

Now, moving on. I do have a breeding question that I would like some honest input on. I have heard from different show breeders that if your lines are getting on the light side then you should breed to a dark cottony or soft coated dog to bring in the dark steel blue. True or false?

Next question, are there dark cottony coated or soft coated dogs being shown that are actually becoming champions. Just curious.

[Ladyhawk]

Now, moving on. I do have a breeding question that I would like some honest input on. I have heard from different show breeders that if your lines are getting on the light side then you should breed to a dark cottony or soft coated dog to bring in the dark steel blue. True or false?

I would think that it would be preferable to breed to a dog from a line that runs dark. Hopefully you would than get the color without taking the risk of compromising texture.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I would think that it would be preferable to breed to a dog from a line that runs dark. Hopefully you would than get the color without taking the risk of compromising texture.

That is what I would think too. If breeders introduce improper texture back into their bloodlines then you would have to worry about getting some pups that are not the right texture. The problem is that years ago I think there were more cottony coat being shown and bred so I think that is why it is still not always easy to get the right texture even when breeding silk to silk.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by bjh

That is what I would think too. If breeders introduce improper texture back into their bloodlines then you would have to worry about getting some pups that are not the right texture. The problem is that years ago I think there were more cottony coat being shown and bred so I think that is why it is still not always easy to get the right texture even when breeding silk to silk.

The yorkie was made up of so many different breeds and in the scheme of things hasn't been around for that long. This makes for more variances in the coat than in alot of breeds. I'm sure that a lot of soft coats have been bred in over time to acheive correct color and color placement, it's bound to come back and haunt us.

[cj125]

Since you had so many questions for people who have already established reputations - I have a few for you.

I noticed you haven't put anything in your bio area. I'm sure you wouldn't mind sharing some information about yourself, now that you've entered into the conversation here.


[quote=LuvndemYorkies;2880182]Great thread,
Newbie - explain this what makes you a newbie and what makes you an expert.

So when are you the breeder of a line is it your line with one generation or does this go back to the original breeder who you borrowed/bought got the line from?

So how long have you all been showing and breeding?

Are you ranking as a newbie or an expert?

How many dogs have you CH from your line? And what is your kennel name?

or from others lines? What are those kennel names?

trying to figure out what is setting a newbie apart from an expert, the terms i hear you using here.

I don't find much in the way of trying to research the different breeders in this thread, which makes me confused,

if you were more than a newbie, wouldn't i find a history of your lines?

So are you all technically newbies? or ?[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by LuvndemYorkies

I have heard that the they are breeding bitches that are way over the standard size to the number one yorkie? I also read a post somewhere on here where this was also discussed earlier.
What the heck does this do to keep the integrity of this breed if the people with top ranking yorkies are breeding to way oversized females?
I mean surely that will crop up somewhere along the way say a daughter of this breeding having trouble delivering pups because she is having way oversized pups??? I mean tell me where this helps the breed? It is being discussed how it is so important to have a bitch that should be CHampioned or could be championed etc etc and how she is worth her weight in gold, then explain how these breeding practices of breeding a top ranking dog to such a way oversized bitch. 3 lbs over the size for a yorkie is a way way oversized dog to be bred, let alone to be bred to the top ranked dog?

and this is more than just here say.

it is being discussed on another list and the person that owns the way oversized bitch has said yes she bred to the top ranked yorkie

with this way oversized bitch. and she is on a contract to not place the pups until spayed and neutered. this makes it very hard to understand, newbies are looking for the right way to breed and when we hear things like this, we loose confidence in those who we think of as experts or stewards of the breed when we hear of such breedings. any opinions on this? is there a need to breed like this? what is the justice of this type of breeding? is there a reason other than collecting that stud fee?

Originally Posted by LuvndemYorkies

Oh my dear brooklyn let me word this so you understand that i do know what I am speaking of. If you read my post it said A TOP RANKING.

Tell me being the Best of Breed Winner at Westminster 2009 would that not be considered A TOP RANKING??? LOL O LOL

Please share your answers to the highlighted comments/questions.

Please forgive me for correcting you on correcting Brooklyn. I seem to have read your statement the same way she did.

I'm really excited to read all about you.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by bjh

One thing that bothers me just a little is when a show breeder says they will only breed champion to champion and then low and behold you start seeing dogs in the ring that are have not been bred champion to champion, only the sire is a champion. I have no problem with breeding champion males to quality bitches that are not championed. I just wish show breeders would be honest and just say they are very selective who they breed their dogs to rather than making blanket statements.

Now, moving on. I do have a breeding question that I would like some honest input on. I have heard from different show breeders that if your lines are getting on the light side then you should breed to a dark cottony or soft coated dog to bring in the dark steel blue. True or false?

Next question, are there dark cottony coated or soft coated dogs being shown that are actually becoming champions. Just curious.

First of all let me say....Of course when I started out my first bitch was NOT a champion and what I learned from that experience I wouldn't do it again, now mind you she did produce my first homebred champion However,I learned quickly from that experience I needed a CH worthy bitch for my foundation Then when I started over my breeding program I started back the correct way breeding CH to CH...aka CH Groveshire's Under the Radar to CH Myboy Camality Jane who by the way was specialed also and was in the top 10 when she was being shown and was #1 yorkie bitch in breed in 2005 I still have Radar who by the way was in the top 5 in breed in the USA in 2008 but am on the search for a show quality bitch so that is why I haven't bred in over 2 years because my search is for the right one and not something I have to do in a hurry because I want to continue to breed and show to the best representation I can....I have been in the show ring but have been showing Radar or for others while I am in search of the bitch that is worthy.
Now on to the question....I don't mind a modified silk coat (no it's not a soft coated dog) but the texture is more on the silk side but of course you want the true silk, which by the way Radar is a very true silky dog but a very true silk is a thin coat and takes forever to grow. Yes, some breeders in my opinion do bring in a soft coated yorkie to their breeding program to get a thicker silk coated dog, not to get color but to get a heavier silk which is what I would call a modified silk. Hard to explain the difference.
There are soft coated yorkies becoming champions but I don't see cotton coated as much anymore being shown as it is very very incorrect and most cotton coated dogs are black instead of a dark steel blue and with the DQ it's halted that. I see more soft coated in the ring than cotton coats.
I hope that helps answer your questions

Donna

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

First of all let me say....Of course when I started out my first bitch was NOT a champion and what I learned from that experience I wouldn't do it again, now mind you she did produce my first homebred champion However,I learned quickly from that experience I needed a CH worthy bitch for my foundation Then when I started over my breeding program I started back the correct way breeding CH to CH...aka CH Groveshire's Under the Radar to CH Myboy Camality Jane who by the way was specialed also and was in the top 10 when she was being shown and was #1 yorkie bitch in breed in 2005 I still have Radar who by the way was in the top 5 in breed in the USA in 2008 but am on the search for a show quality bitch so that is why I haven't bred in over 2 years because my search is for the right one and not something I have to do in a hurry because I want to continue to breed and show to the best representation I can....I have been in the show ring but have been showing Radar or for others while I am in search of the bitch that is worthy.
Now on to the question....I don't mind a modified silk coat (no it's not a soft coated dog) but the texture is more on the silk side but of course you want the true silk, which by the way Radar is a very true silky dog but a very true silk is a thin coat and takes forever to grow. Yes, some breeders in my opinion do bring in a soft coated yorkie to their breeding program to get a thicker silk coated dog, not to get color but to get a heavier silk which is what I would call a modified silk. Hard to explain the difference.
There are soft coated yorkies becoming champions but I don't see cotton coated as much anymore being shown as it is very very incorrect and most cotton coated dogs are black instead of a dark steel blue and with the DQ it's halted that. I see more soft coated in the ring than cotton coats.
I hope that helps answer your questions

Donna

I just have to add to this....I don't think you'll have Statford, Tyava or some of the other "Top" breeders making a blanket statement like this on YT or to those they don't know...I don't think I've heard the "TOP" reputable breeders make this statement...maybe you'll see a smaller show exhibitor make this statement more.....Barb I really don't know who you talk too and would be interesting to know where you get all this information LOL...

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

First of all let me say....Of course when I started out my first bitch was NOT a champion and what I learned from that experience I wouldn't do it again, now mind you she did produce my first homebred champion However,I learned quickly from that experience I needed a CH worthy bitch for my foundation Then when I started over my breeding program I started back the correct way breeding CH to CH...aka CH Groveshire's Under the Radar to CH Myboy Camality Jane who by the way was specialed also and was in the top 10 when she was being shown and was #1 yorkie bitch in breed in 2005 I still have Radar who by the way was in the top 5 in breed in the USA in 2008 but am on the search for a show quality bitch so that is why I haven't bred in over 2 years because my search is for the right one and not something I have to do in a hurry because I want to continue to breed and show to the best representation I can....I have been in the show ring but have been showing Radar or for others while I am in search of the bitch that is worthy.
Now on to the question....I don't mind a modified silk coat (no it's not a soft coated dog) but the texture is more on the silk side but of course you want the true silk, which by the way Radar is a very true silky dog but a very true silk is a thin coat and takes forever to grow. Yes, some breeders in my opinion do bring in a soft coated yorkie to their breeding program to get a thicker silk coated dog, not to get color but to get a heavier silk which is what I would call a modified silk. Hard to explain the difference.
There are soft coated yorkies becoming champions but I don't see cotton coated as much anymore being shown as it is very very incorrect and most cotton coated dogs are black instead of a dark steel blue and with the DQ it's halted that. I see more soft coated in the ring than cotton coats.
I hope that helps answer your questions

Donna

Let me add to your post Donna.

Breeder/exhibitors with smaller breeding programs are more selective and choose to breed Ch. to Ch., than breeder/exhibitors that have a larger program. Those larger programs have the option of more bitches that have the qualities of a show dog, but may not have liked being in the ring....should she not be used....I don't think so......Therefore, you see a pup in the ring that is Championed sired but not the dam....doesn't make her less qualified, but she can be a top producing bitch.

Then you have the situation that I ran into with my Tahlulah, lacking a 3 point Major, bred from a Ch. Sire and Ch. Bitch.......Came out winning, pointing at her first show and almost every show their after, taking a 4 point Major and the Dallas Fort Worth Toy Club, from the Bred By Class....however, circumstances in my life; my mother passing, me moving to California.....I ran out of time......she had to be bred as she was approaching 3 years old.....should I have kicked her to the curb, not used her and petted her out.....I think not....as she had all the attributes and qualities of a Champion.......

Asking a question why some breeder/exhibitors don't breed Ch. to Ch. one needs to be familiar with each and every breeder/exhibitor's practice and their reasons behind their decisions.

[bjh]

Donna, thanks for you input. Radar is beautiful, he has the type of coat I prefer.

Out of curiosity I looked at the champions that were entered in the roving specialty, counting the veterans, and out of the 20 champions entered, 5 had neither parent a champion, 7 had one parent that was championed and 8 had both parents championed. I guess my point is that I feel a dog/bitch does not necessarily have to be a champion to be worthy of breeding. There are many things to consider.

I still get so confused on the differences between cottony, soft coated and modified silk. I have only had one that stayed black and I petted her out. I thought she was soft coated. Her coat felt silky, was cool to touch, never matted but she was black and her head never cleared.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I just have to add to this....I don't think you'll have Statford, Tyava or some of the other "Top" breeders making a blanket statement like this on YT or to those they don't know...I don't think I've heard the "TOP" reputable breeders make this statement...maybe you'll see a smaller show exhibitor make this statement more.....Barb I really don't know who you talk too and would be interesting to know where you get all this information LOL...

Mary, what statement are you referring to? I totally understand that "top" breeders do not go into details about their breeding programs. It is a vicious world out there and so many things are said that are not true or are twisted around. That is one reason it is harder for a newbie to learn because there are so many different opinions on things. That is one reason I like to hear all different viewpoints. There is just so much to learn.

[topknot]

Originally Posted by bjh

Donna, thanks for you input. Radar is beautiful, he has the type of coat I prefer.

Out of curiosity I looked at the champions that were entered in the roving specialty, counting the veterans, and out of the 20 champions entered, 5 had neither parent a champion, 7 had one parent that was championed and 8 had both parents championed. I guess my point is that I feel a dog/bitch does not necessarily have to be a champion to be worthy of breeding. There are many things to consider.

I still get so confused on the differences between cottony, soft coated and modified silk. I have only had one that stayed black and I petted her out. I thought she was soft coated. Her coat felt silky, was cool to touch, never matted but she was black and her head never cleared.

Champion parents: I think what you are missing Barb is that the quality and pedigree must have been there and most all show exhibitors have their dogs expertly evaluated and tested. As Mary mentioned there are different reasons why the exhibitor made the match and why the sire or dam was not finished, yet.

Coat - How old was the one of yours that stayed black before you petted her out?