learning question

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by topknot

I'm Tina. I would prefer them to be a good champion! There usually really good reasons why both parents are not championed when breeders may do a breeding. Those that were bred and did not get their championship might later gain their championships or maybe the owners had others dogs to get in the ring first or whatever the reason - the dogs they bred to were top quality and not your regular pets being bred.
In my case - Cha-Cha was whelped at the time with only her dam being a champion (and Specialty winner). Her sire had been in shows and expertly evaluated and tested, before I made the match. Cha-Cha's sire is now a champion and even took Reserves at the NJ Specialty show against tough competition. So even though when I did the breeding - not both parents were champions, but I felt it was a great match and turned out some very nice pups. Actually I was very pleased. I will have Cha-cha in the ring to hopefully finish this new year. This is just one example. Again you have to ask each breeder their reason for making the match.

Tina,

You're very correct......there are those that to prove stud, use them prior to putting them in the ring.....later on Championing them......

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by bjh

Thanks to all for you input. Sorry to be a pest.

You are asking the same questions to the same 3 people that have told you over and over you need to get out there because that is how we are learning not just sitting on the computer asking the same questions. You know what it takes to do it and that is what we've been saying and that is "ONCE" again you have to get out in the show world to prove your breeding stock and show worthy yorkies plain and simple...

Donna

[Brooklynn]

You know even when I was a newbie to the show ring...The first person I went to for a show dog didn't turn me down because they saw that I was serious in my showing and let me purchase my dog Tucker and my first show bitch Cammie I didn't even have to ask for she was "offered" to me at pet price and not even a show price and I took her to the top 10 in the rankings. And then when it was time to seek out my next male I made my first contact and that was Radar's breeder and I got Radar. So what I'm trying to say is even if you are a newbie and you are serious it's NOT hard to get what you want as long as you are doing it right and they know it. Everyone I came in contact with knew I was on the up and up and was going to do what I set out to do plain and simple. I guess I was one of the lucky ones. But I have proved myself time and time again and now I'm in contact with a good breeder for a show bitch and guess what, we are just waiting on her to see if she is going to turn out for show and if so she's mine

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Now, moving on. I do have a breeding question that I would like some honest input on. I have heard from different show breeders that if your lines are getting on the light side then you should breed to a dark cottony or soft coated dog to bring in the dark steel blue. True or false?

I would think that it would be preferable to breed to a dog from a line that runs dark. Hopefully you would than get the color without taking the risk of compromising texture.

Breeding a fault to a fault gives you a new fault to deal with...breed to a line of steel blue, silk.

My best advise is to go and watch, be everywhere until you are a fixture. I went to show for pure fun and pleasure long before I showed...I never really understood a breeder who hated watching a dog show...it was going to college for me.

[topknot]

Honestly - Barb, you really do have to get out at shows to learn and really get to know the exhibitors. Donna is so right. Sometimes one needs to be frank, so we hear. I had a friend that was really frank with me about my job consumming my whole life and I had to get a life of my own. I am glad I listened to her. That is when I came back to yorkies. I thank her all the time now. At first , when she told me this - I resented it and how dare her talk to me that way. Like I said - I am so glad she did!!
I know it may be hard for you to get out to shows, but nothing really worth doing is easy. It takes determination and motivation. If you really want to - you will find a way.
Shortly after my move back in the late 80s, my husband got laid off (one of the recessions) and I was a stay at home mom. So what did I do - I got a job at a school so I would not have to pay a sitter, open up a business too, and went back to college - all at the sametime.My hubby did get a job, second shift at a factory and ran our business in the morning. It was not easy, but if one is motivated nothing is impossible and you can do what you set your mind too. Please do not take me wrong - just trying to motivate using my own experiences.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

You know even when I was a newbie to the show ring...The first person I went to for a show dog didn't turn me down because they saw that I was serious in my showing and let me purchase my dog Tucker and my first show bitch Cammie I didn't even have to ask for she was "offered" to me at pet price and not even a show price and I took her to the top 10 in the rankings. And then when it was time to seek out my next male I made my first contact and that was Radar's breeder and I got Radar. So what I'm trying to say is even if you are a newbie and you are serious it's NOT hard to get what you want as long as you are doing it right and they know it. Everyone I came in contact with knew I was on the up and up and was going to do what I set out to do plain and simple. I guess I was one of the lucky ones. But I have proved myself time and time again and now I'm in contact with a good breeder for a show bitch and guess what, we are just waiting on her to see if she is going to turn out for show and if so she's mine

Donna, you miss understood, I was talking about stud service and I was not exactly turned down, she just said she would not breed to any of mine unless they were champions. I did not even have anything at that time that I would want to breed to him. It was just a statement I made to her that I might want to someday. I have bought two show prospects, both are nice dogs but I felt the first one was a bit too big for the show ring. My other one, like I explained, I have not had the funds to show him plus he messed up his topknot. I hope to get either him or one of my pups out next year if finances allows it. In the mean time I will continue to study and learn all I can.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by bjh

Donna, you miss understood, I was talking about stud service and I was not exactly turned down, she just said she would not breed to any of mine unless they were champions. I did not even have anything at that time that I would want to breed to him. It was just a statement I made to her that I might want to someday. I have bought two show prospects, both are nice dogs but I felt the first one was a bit too big for the show ring. My other one, like I explained, I have not had the funds to show him plus he messed up his topknot. I hope to get either him or one of my pups out next year if finances allows it. In the mean time I will continue to study and learn all I can.

Barb,

Although, you directed it to Donna.....and maybe you aren't asking a question here.....

But, I'm gonna make a statement here......you were turned down.......it was very evident, since I think you said that later you found that the stud was bred to non-championed dams........I guess what I'm attempting to say.....more to learn in the dog world.......more like read between the lines.....

[bjh]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Breeding a fault to a fault gives you a new fault to deal with...breed to a line of steel blue, silk.

My best advise is to go and watch, be everywhere until you are a fixture. I went to show for pure fun and pleasure long before I showed...I never really understood a breeder who hated watching a dog show...it was going to college for me.

I agree, I have been going to some shows. I have video taped the specialty in our area the last two years and I love watching the video, studying the dogs and the handlers. I much prefer to watch as opposed to getting in the ring. If I had the funds I would much rather hire a handler but to me the win does mean a lot more if you are behind the lead.

[Brooklynn]

Here is something I'm going to put out here....not directed at anyone....

I will say this....I will never sell a show potenial/quality male or female to anyone (newbie's included) that will not champion it and even then when breeding occurs I will be involved in every aspect involved in the breeding. I willl stay on as co-owner of the bitch and if you decide to stud the male it will only be to approved bitches with my consent and you will not be able to sell show dogs out of either male or female. You will have to sell anything that goes as pets spayed or neutered before it leaves your home and I will have to see the proof before I sign off on anything. AND if you keep anything before you breed it, it will have to be championed as well...
I have studded out Radar "ONE" time and this person is NOT allowed to sell show dogs out of that litter and if she places as a pet it has to be neutered as the bitch had 3 males that were produced and she cannot sell show dogs out of the male she kept that is from Radar. Sounds harsh maybe but it will protect what I am working hard to acheive. I do not EVER want any of my dogs that leave my house that will be used as breeding machines to supply the pet population.
So, I guess the jest of all this is I won't sell anyone that has NO intention of showing a show yorkie.
Now everyone knows how my breeding practice goes.

Donna

[bjh]

Originally Posted by topknot

Honestly - Barb, you really do have to get out at shows to learn and really get to know the exhibitors. Donna is so right. Sometimes one needs to be frank, so we hear. I had a friend that was really frank with me about my job consumming my whole life and I had to get a life of my own. I am glad I listened to her. That is when I came back to yorkies. I thank her all the time now. At first , when she told me this - I resented it and how dare her talk to me that way. Like I said - I am so glad she did!!
I know it may be hard for you to get out to shows, but nothing really worth doing is easy. It takes determination and motivation. If you really want to - you will find a way.
Shortly after my move back in the late 80s, my husband got laid off (one of the recessions) and I was a stay at home mom. So what did I do - I got a job at a school so I would not have to pay a sitter, open up a business too, and went back to college - all at the sametime.My hubby did get a job, second shift at a factory and ran our business in the morning. It was not easy, but if one is motivated nothing is impossible and you can do what you set your mind too. Please do not take me wrong - just trying to motivate using my own experiences.

Tina, I really understand. I know I need to get in the ring and I know I ask too many questions. I suppose a public forum is not the place to be asking some questions. I know everyone means well and all of you do help motivate me. Hopefully I will get to meet everyone some day. Thanks again.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Here is something I'm going to put out here....not directed at anyone....

I will say this....I will never sell a show potenial/quality male or female to anyone (newbie's included) that will not champion it and even then when breeding occurs I will be involved in every aspect involved in the breeding. I willl stay on as co-owner of the bitch and if you decide to stud the male it will only be to approved bitches with my consent and you will not be able to sell show dogs out of either male or female. You will have to sell anything that goes as pets spayed or neutered before it leaves your home and I will have to see the proof before I sign off on anything. AND if you keep anything before you breed it, it will have to be championed as well...
I have studded out Radar "ONE" time and this person is NOT allowed to sell show dogs out of that litter and if she places as a pet it has to be neutered as the bitch had 3 males that were produced and she cannot sell show dogs out of the male she kept that is from Radar. Sounds harsh maybe but it will protect what I am working hard to acheive. I do not EVER want any of my dogs that leave my house that will be used as breeding machines to supply the pet population.
So, I guess the jest of all this is I won't sell anyone that has NO intention of showing a show yorkie.
Now everyone knows how my breeding practice goes.

Donna

And one more thing.... I will never sell on open registration to anyone for breeding purposes or stud out a male for breeding purposes as I will not have any of my males open for public stud.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by bjh

I agree, I have been going to some shows. I have video taped the specialty in our area the last two years and I love watching the video, studying the dogs and the handlers. I much prefer to watch as opposed to getting in the ring. If I had the funds I would much rather hire a handler but to me the win does mean a lot more if you are behind the lead.

I love to breed a show pup, raise it, grow a coat, turn it over to the handler. We are all different, but I am a breeder at heart, producing the pup was my passion...you never have to breed a litter to finish one and the ring never had much appeal...I guess because I had a business, home, children, clubs..traveling was no fun for me...

Would I have felt any different if I had finished my own..I doubt it, but sure understand the satisfaction for others to do it...

[bjh]

I do want to say that I appreciate those that PM'ed me with support and advise. I understand why many did not wish to post publicly on YT. Thank again to all.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by bjh

I do want to say that I appreciate those that PM'ed me with support and advise. I understand why many did not wish to post publicly on YT. Thank again to all.

Barb,

It appears you feel that one is attacking you....not the case......the attempt as stated on other threads is to encourage you and get you in the ring......

You asked questions they were answered, but answers from a forum can only go so far.......

I know from experience, people could tell and answer question from here till dooms day.....and their advice was once you get in the ring and then begin a breeding program you'll get it.....

Let me commend you for having the courage and posting your questions publically and wish more people would do that....What it shows to me is that you are willing to learn, even though we may sound frustrated in answering you, other's learn by your questions......The only way to get the word out is to ask questions, even though the answers may not be what you want to hear. That's the only way you can learn....and we've all seen many people change their thinking with threads such as this.....

[Brooklynn]

[QUOTE=bjh;2881643]Donna, thanks for you input. Radar is beautiful, he has the type of coat I prefer.

Out of curiosity I looked at the champions that were entered in the roving specialty, counting the veterans, and out of the 20 champions entered, 5 had neither parent a champion, 7 had one parent that was championed and 8 had both parents championed. I guess my point is that I feel a dog/bitch does not necessarily have to be a champion to be worthy of breeding. There are many things to consider.


Radar's sire and dam were not Canadian champions but both grandparents on sire's side were champions as were both great grandparents on sire's dam side as was great great grandparents on sire's side. Great great grandsire on dam side was champion and it keeps going...
Radar's dam's side, great grandsire was a champion as was the dam's sir's great great grandsire and dam were both champions and the dam's side's dam both of the dam's parents were champions so even tho Radar's parents weren't champions he comes from a very long line of champions.

Only 8 on Radar's sire's side for 4 generations were not champions and on his dam's side only 10 were not champions in a 4 generation pedigree. And most of these were both CA/AM champions, some just Canadian champions which will not show up on an American pedigree. Most of Radar's pedigree consists of Areo, for several generations to Pastoral to Durrer to Jentre's ect...
Dam side is NicNac, Aero, Pastoral, Premar, Rothby and Durrer.
He really is heavy in the Aero lines that goes back to Pastoral and Durrer. So while his parents weren't champions for one reason or another the breeder (Preston) felt this would produce a good litter and well as it turned out he was right and Radar was produced. Breeders that have been doing this for many years know their lines pretty well or those that have entrusted them with their lines know what will work and give it a go.
I would be happy to show anyone Radar's pedigree at any time I would have it posted on my website but I haven't figured out the htt codes to put it there LOL...
I hope this explains why Radar's parents weren't champions

Donna

P.S. Would I purchase another yorkie without champion sired sire or dam...if I knew the breeder knows what they are doing of course I would as long as it compliments what I have in my breeding/showing program and on the advice of the very experienced mentors I do have