Neutering At 3 years old????

[gemy]

New Link to an older article
Tables

Determining The Best Age At Which To Spay Or Neuter | AKC Canine Health Foundation

This article is based on rather dated research approx. 10yrs old.

What is very interesting are the tables they provide at the bottom of the article.

Showing breed pre disposition to certain health conditions and by health conditions those that are increased from either the spay or neuter or those that are decreased from the spay or neuter.

I copied what this researcher overall "conclusions were" from the above link onto this post:

Conclusion So how do you reconcile all this information in helping make decisions for individual animals? Considerations must include evaluation of incidence of various disorders, breed predisposition, and health significance of the various disorders (Table 2 and Table 3). For female dogs, the high incidence and high percentage of malignancy of mammary neoplasia, and the significant effect of spaying on decreasing its incidence make ovariohysterectomy prior to the first heat the best recommendation for non-breeding animals. The demonstrated increased incidence of urinary incontinence in bitches spayed before 3 months of age and possible effect of CCL injury in bitches spayed before 6 months of age suggest that spaying bitches after 6 months of age but before their first heat is most beneficial. For bitches of breeds predisposed by ovariohysterectomy to highly malignant tumors and for breeding animals, spaying at a later age may be more beneficial. For male dogs, castration decreases incidence of disorders with little health significance and may increase incidence of disorders of much greater health significance. For non-breeding animals, evaluation of breed and subsequent predispositions to disorders by gonadectomy should guide when and if castration is recommended. As dog breeders, you are a source of information for people seeking a dog for companionship, to show or work as a hobby, or to grow up with their children. As veterinarians, we are one of the guardians of safety and good health for all animals in our society. It behooves all of us to thoughtfully consider why we recommend spay or castration for dogs, to ensure we are not putting our own convenience above their good health. For every individual bitch or dog, careful consideration of their breed, age, lifestyle, and suitability as a breeding animal must be a part of the decision as to when or if they should undergo gonadectomy. - See more at: Determining The Best Age At Which To Spay Or Neuter | AKC Canine Health Foundation


Please note what I have highlighted in red.

More research is very necessary specifically breed specific research. Some of course has been done but not nearly enough.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by gemy

New Link to an older article
Tables

Determining The Best Age At Which To Spay Or Neuter | AKC Canine Health Foundation

This article is based on rather dated research approx. 10yrs old.

What is very interesting are the tables they provide at the bottom of the article.

Showing breed pre disposition to certain health conditions and by health conditions those that are increased from either the spay or neuter or those that are decreased from the spay or neuter.

I copied what this researcher overall "conclusions were" from the above link onto this post:

Conclusion So how do you reconcile all this information in helping make decisions for individual animals? Considerations must include evaluation of incidence of various disorders, breed predisposition, and health significance of the various disorders (Table 2 and Table 3). For female dogs, the high incidence and high percentage of malignancy of mammary neoplasia, and the significant effect of spaying on decreasing its incidence make ovariohysterectomy prior to the first heat the best recommendation for non-breeding animals. The demonstrated increased incidence of urinary incontinence in bitches spayed before 3 months of age and possible effect of CCL injury in bitches spayed before 6 months of age suggest that spaying bitches after 6 months of age but before their first heat is most beneficial. For bitches of breeds predisposed by ovariohysterectomy to highly malignant tumors and for breeding animals, spaying at a later age may be more beneficial. For male dogs, castration decreases incidence of disorders with little health significance and may increase incidence of disorders of much greater health significance. For non-breeding animals, evaluation of breed and subsequent predispositions to disorders by gonadectomy should guide when and if castration is recommended. As dog breeders, you are a source of information for people seeking a dog for companionship, to show or work as a hobby, or to grow up with their children. As veterinarians, we are one of the guardians of safety and good health for all animals in our society. It behooves all of us to thoughtfully consider why we recommend spay or castration for dogs, to ensure we are not putting our own convenience above their good health. For every individual bitch or dog, careful consideration of their breed, age, lifestyle, and suitability as a breeding animal must be a part of the decision as to when or if they should undergo gonadectomy. - See more at: Determining The Best Age At Which To Spay Or Neuter | AKC Canine Health Foundation


Please note what I have highlighted in red.

More research is very necessary specifically breed specific research. Some of course has been done but not nearly enough.

Totally disagree on their conclusions on males. You have to understand research to know to be wary of this. In my 21 years as a mobile dog groomer with thoiusands of clients over the years, I have found ALL animals in my clientel that were left intact and pets ran into trouble somewhere to severe detriment to their health. That includes one of my boys I was no longer using for breeding but did not have him neutered. I will never do that again, if I know he will not be in my breeding program for any reason and not being used he will be neutered regardless of age.
In my opinion, that is the responsible thing to do based on years of experience.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

Totally disagree on their conclusions on males. You have to understand research to know to be wary of this. In my 21 years as a mobile dog groomer with thoiusands of clients over the years, I have found ALL animals in my clientel that were left intact and pets ran into trouble somewhere to severe detriment to their health. That includes one of my boys I was no longer using for breeding but did not have him neutered. I will never do that again, if I know he will not be in my breeding program for any reason and not being used he will be neutered regardless of age.
In my opinion, that is the responsible thing to do based on years of experience.

Well we all have our own years of experience, which is not necessarily reflective of what current research is telling us.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by gemy

Well we all have our own years of experience, which is not necessarily reflective of what current research is telling us.

The research you posted is not current. You likely dont know research published 10 years ago is actually about 12 years old.
I prefer listening to Veterinarians that are knowledgable on many levels as there are some that are not very knowledgable on barely any levels. The vets I know and many of my very long time in the show rings friends have recommended spay/neuter unquestionably. Dogs owned by my vets that are male dogs are neutered. that works for me!
Canada and the USA pretty much support altering intact pets. Most of Europe is decades behind on that one.

[gemy]

Yes I know that research is not current, which is why I stated so in my posting.
And I am aware of the lag time in getting research published, as well as peer reviewed.

There are even as we speak many on-going studies being done, 10,000 Golden Retriever study ; at least one goal is to find out why 1 in 5 goldens die at avg age of 8yrs from hemangiosarcomas. And there is already in existence studies that show a significantly higher incident rate in especially spayed females; spayed at any age.

I am for all well conducted research that informs our knowledge of how we keep our canine companions healthy. Even if that flies in the face of what historically has been done.

I am for a medical profession that queries their policies and procedures intelligently. And keeps current with the newest of findings.

Whether Europe is behind us or ahead of us only time will tell as all the research comes in. And speaking of hemangiosarcoma at a vet symposium, my vet was talking to another European vet about a sad case he just ddx'd prior to the symposium of a 5yr old female with this cancer. How it was the 8th dog that year (six months into the year) he had to give this bad news to the owner. Wow the European vet said, in my 25 years of practice I have not seen that yet.....

So there are many things we need. Get the vets out of the 19th century with affordable health reporting software. Get a National Registry where automatically all conditions are reported in. Get the breed determined through either a DNA Mars test or like - registered pedigrees for dogs et al.

Let us get some nationwide accurate health reporting at the source! The vets office(s). Make it easy for them to fill out as part of their health record keeping requirements.

And lets educate the public on all aspects of dog husbandry. Yeah I know an old fashioned term but kind of apt!

[Lorraine]

Unfortunately the health issues you mention cannot be pinned onto spay/neutering. Large breeds do seem to have more issues from early spay/neuter in growth plate and general growth issues than smaller breeds.
From many reports, research, what vets are seeing, it looks like yearly vaccination or over vaccination could be a far larger culprit in problems across the board in canines and felines I might add as well. Do you know how the yearly vaccination protocol came about? I do. Parvo outbreak in the 80's when 1 vaccination was given to puppies. A new strain came out and many dogs died. Drug companies decided to advocate yearly vaccinations without any research to find out how long a vaccine will protect an animal and that is still the case as it is expensive to do and the drug companies are not interested in spending that money. Titers started being done years ago and it was found that the vaccination given even 3 or 4 years ago, often more, were still giving protection. Now it is thought continually challenging the already protected immune system with more vaccinations could be the greater culprit in breaking down the immune system leaving the animal susptible to anomolies even leading to death.
Also how many pet food recalls has there been in the last 5 or 10 years? Scads! and involving very dangerous stuff used in dog and cat food especially those companies getting their product from China.
Also think about the general health in humans, the increase of cancers, deaths in young and old alike from health issues including leukemia, sarcoma, brain tumours, babies (human ones) born with brain tumours etc etc. It is not just in the animal world both domestic and wild, and I personally do not know of any male humans or wild animals that have been neutered.
We cannot avoid pesticides in our world anymore, not for animal not for human. There are many variables to consider in general health not just spay/neuter.
think about it.

[bjh]

I am so skeptical of all kinds of studies, regardless of who does them. It seems like things are constantly changing about what is good for you and what is not. Spay and neutering is a big money maker for vets as is vaccinating. There are risks no matter what you do. I think overall it is best to spay and neuter pets but not at an early age. I think we just don't really know the long term effects. Often health issues come up that we might not think are connected to the spaying, neutering or the over vaccination of our pets.

It comes down to personal choices and those that wish to keep their pets unaltered have got to be responsible and keep them safe.

BTW, the oldest dog that I have ever known was a toy poodle that my brother and sil owned. She lived to be 22 years old and she was never spayed, and she ate whatever. Go figure.

[lisaly]

It is very difficult to go against the established order and to change people's' way of thinking. As new research comes out, it will take a long time for the veterinary profession to change their views if that, in fact, is what's best for our beloved pets. I am a teacher in one of the best high schools in the United States. I've seen teachers who are highly educated, wonderful in their chosen subject and field who are so slow to accept new technology or ways of doing things. I think vets have very important things to stay current on, and although this is such an important issue related to our pets, it may not be their first priority. Most of the people who are members of YT are not your average pet owner. Considering the lifestyles of most people and how they are with their pets, perhaps early spay and neuter is the best option. I understand why vets recommend it due to the pet overpopulation problem. However, that does not mean that it's best for our pets. I hate that Katie does not have her hormones. I have an amazing little girl personality wise, so it's not about it affecting her temperament. She gets a lot of exercise daily, but keeping her at a healthy weight is a daily struggle. I don't know if spaying her affecting anything else in her, and that worries me. I do know that we would spot any changes in her if she got sick. My husband checks her body fully every day to make sure she remains very healthy, and I,too, check our little girl so that we can make sure we are proactive with her health. I strongly believe we need to be open minded and to always question and educate ourselves about what's best for our dogs. They count on us to protect them, and we owe them the same devotion that they give to us..

Thank you, Gemy, for always helping to educate. I have learned so much from you. With your intelligence, sensitivity, and giving and inquisitive nature, you add so much to this forum, and you always evoke such emotion and thought for me.

[gemy]

I think about it all the time. And I think that it is way past time to find out how de-sexing dogs at varying ages affects their health. Pure and simple.

I don't feed kibble have not for over 6 years. I go to a vet nutritionist and I home feed.

I titer and don't over vaccinate; and yes I try to be up on the latest research on vaccinosis.

Now how about you think about this. What if every early (5-6wk old) 5way or 6way vaccines, coupled with a predisposition to MVD actually was the culprit in expression of MVD. Just how long does the liver actually take to mature? Are the cells still susceptible to change? We now know plasticity of cells longevity is much much longer than science ever thought. Change that affects the dogs overhealth and longevity?

So there is much food for thought....

[107barney]

Originally Posted by gemy

I think about it all the time. And I think that it is way past time to find out how de-sexing dogs at varying ages affects their health. Pure and simple.

I don't feed kibble have not for over 6 years. I go to a vet nutritionist and I home feed.

I titer and don't over vaccinate; and yes I try to be up on the latest research on vaccinosis.

Now how about you think about this. What if every early (5-6wk old) 5way or 6way vaccines, coupled with a predisposition to MVD actually was the culprit in expression of MVD. Just how long does the liver actually take to mature? Are the cells still susceptible to change? We now know plasticity of cells longevity is much much longer than science ever thought. Change that affects the dogs overhealth and longevity?

So there is much food for thought....

There is fact and there is opinion. The fact is that the breeding and genetic garbage pool affecting these dogs is mostly the problem. I can't say my dog tore a ligament because he was early neutered when at the same time he was bred with grade 2-3 MPLs that gave rise to the perfect set of anatomical circumstances to tear that ligament when jumping off a bed and landing on hard wood. I can't say home cooking using local organic ingredients has created longevity and youthfulness in my 13-year old dogs when I spend a ton on preventative vet care, training, and the like. And I can't say my dog has MVD from a vaccine when the dog was not in sale able condition when I took her home and she was frail and sickly. And I can't say that one dog has not needed a dental more than once in 13 years because of my good home care and nutrition when everyone else eating the same diet needs dental more often. I think it is genetics all the way.

[gemy]

[QUOTE=107barney;4255657]There is fact and there is opinion. The fact is that the breeding and genetic garbage pool affecting these dogs is mostly the problem.

No that is not fact but your opinion. If it is anywhere close to fact post the actual research to support your opinion.

There is so much we don't know about a whole lot of things, human or animal.

What I don't know as "fact" but what I believe is that you always have the best interests of your pets at heart.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by 107barney

There is fact and there is opinion. The fact is that the breeding and genetic garbage pool affecting these dogs is mostly the problem. I can't say my dog tore a ligament because he was early neutered when at the same time he was bred with grade 2-3 MPLs that gave rise to the perfect set of anatomical circumstances to tear that ligament when jumping off a bed and landing on hard wood. I can't say home cooking using local organic ingredients has created longevity and youthfulness in my 13-year old dogs when I spend a ton on preventative vet care, training, and the like. And I can't say my dog has MVD from a vaccine when the dog was not in sale able condition when I took her home and she was frail and sickly. And I can't say that one dog has not needed a dental more than once in 13 years because of my good home care and nutrition when everyone else eating the same diet needs dental more often. I think it is genetics all the way.

I think I understand what you are saying. Some dogs, whether well bred or not, are just predispositioned to problems just as us humans are predispositioned to things like breast cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc.
Some of the things that are linked to spaying and neutering like obesity, incontinence, increased risks to certain types of cancers, increased chances of adverse reaction to vaccinations, etc, can effect some dogs but not others. It could all be a combination of genes along with diet and exposure to chemicals. I don't know if we will ever have all the answers. All the doctors and scientists in the world can't even figure it all out for us humans.

[Yorkiemom1]

I personally support my beliefs, based on medical/vet literature and try very hard to look for any agendas or motivational factors that could be reduced the published material, to nothing more than propaganda to support a cause. With that in mind, I thought I would share the following article regarding this touchy subject. I have changed my own views on when to spay/neuter, from knowledge gleened from medical literature written on the subject. People will support positions they take for or against specific actions or beliefs, based on what they feel validates their position. So, below is one of many articles that support my position/argument. Until I read new research, written up in medical/vet journals, that deviate from this current research, this will be my position.

Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay/Neuter in DogsAn objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the long term health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject. On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases. On the positive side, neutering male dogs

*eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
*reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
*reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
*may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs

*if done before maturity, increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) by a factor of 3.8; this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
*increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
*triples the risk of hypothyroidism
*increases the risk of geriatric cognitive impairment
*triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
*quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
*doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
*increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
*increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

Female Dogs
For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.
On the positive side, spaying female dogs
*if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
*nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
*reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
*removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
*if done before maturity, increases the risk of osteosarcoma by a factor of 3.1; this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
*increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
*triples the risk of hypothyroidism
*increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
*causes urinary "spay incontinence" in 4-20% of female dogs
*increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
*increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
*doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
*increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
*increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
One thing is clear - much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate pet owners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits associated of spay/neuter in dogs.

The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or (perhaps in the case of many male dogs) foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary. The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature.

[lisaly]

This is a link to an update of a very informative article by Dr. Chris Zinc, DVM about early spay and neutering.

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/...tions_2013.pdf

[ladyjane]

As if we don't see enough "oops" breedings now. Depressing thread.