Royal Canin Yorkie for Puppies

[Ellie May]

I really don't get the soy is so cheap thing either. When I go look at the frozen food section for vegetarian soy burgers, protein bars, etc., it doesn't appear any cheaper than meat to me.

A can of corn and a can of peas are priced the same at the store, so then do we say peas are a cheap filler too? Corn is used as a carb for the most part an d it is first on the list of ingredients because carbs are supposed to make up the majority of the food. Anyway, you get a can of corn for what, 75 cents? It's maybe about a pound. Potatoes run about $2 for 10 pounds here. So 5 pounds of potatoes for $1. So I can get more potato with my $1 than I can get corn. I'm just really confused about this.

[Ellie May]

ETA: If they used mostly corn for protein, then they would need more of it than they would need meat because it's just not very high in it. So they would be spending just as much on corn for a protein or more I would think. Would not be a good business move, imo. It's first on the list because there are more carbs in dog food than protein. If one wants to overfeed protein just to have a meat meal first, second, and sometimes third on the list, that's fine. I just don't see a point to that and I don't believe it is all that healthy.


Corn is not necessary in dog food, but then no grain is technically. So I still don't get what makes it worse than the others. And then we could say carbs aren't truly needed, but I'd never cut them out of my dog's diet and overfeed them protein.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I really don't get the soy is so cheap thing either. When I go look at the frozen food section for vegetarian soy burgers, protein bars, etc., it doesn't appear any cheaper than meat to me.

A can of corn and a can of peas are priced the same at the store, so then do we say peas are a cheap filler too? Corn is used as a carb for the most part an d it is first on the list of ingredients because carbs are supposed to make up the majority of the food. Anyway, you get a can of corn for what, 75 cents? It's maybe about a pound. Potatoes run about $2 for 10 pounds here. So 5 pounds of potatoes for $1. So I can get more potato with my $1 than I can get corn. I'm just really confused about this.

Yes, but let's face it: the soy most are using in dog food is NOT going to be coming from top-of-the-line grocery stores, either. So comparing the cost of human products is kind of irrelevant because those companies are not going to the grocery store and shopping for the best products out there. The same can be said for meat, too, though of course.

Soy is one of the top allergens for dogs and it's also been known to cause bloat in large breeds. It can also irritate the bowels but foods with soy usually also contain beet pulp, which will harden the stool and a lot of people think that makes everything okay and healthy. Of course, soy is not the only thing. The most common allergens are beef, dairy products, chicken, wheat, eggs, corn and soy so that's kind of a long list. It's nice that we have the options out there for a kibble to contain corn and soy, for example, for a dog who may thrive on a food like that. But I would say most dogs would be perfectly healthy, maybe healthier, not eating them. It is nice to have all the kibble options out there that we have and I don't think a few major companies should be the only food to feed. That would suck.

Why are carbs supposed to make up a majority of the food? That doesn't make sense to me. Some carbs aren't bad, IMO, but canines bodies aren't entirely meant to process a ton of them. I think having lower carb (but not zero) can be good for energy and digestibility. But I don't see why it's important for a food to be made up mostly of them. Yep, grain-free foods have carbs too (usually in the form of potatoes, sweet potatoes, peas, etc) but usually it is less (not all the time). And maybe not every dog will do good on low-carbs, I am sure there are some that thrive more on a higher-carb diet. But I don't think most healthy dogs require them. And luckily for us, most dogs digestive tracts are very adjustable. So while they can survive solely on protein and fat, they don't HAVE to, unlike cats who are obligate carnivores.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Corn is not necessary in dog food, but then no grain is technically. So I still don't get what makes it worse than the others. And then we could say carbs aren't truly needed, but I'd never cut them out of my dog's diet and overfeed them protein.

I agree with you. I think corn is not really worse than other grains.

I'm still iffy on grains. Though I used to only feed a grain-free diet, I am more along the lines now that some grain can't be that bad, and the dogs who were eating nothing but table scraps in the past were most likely getting grain as well. I still don't feel they are entirely necessary but I don't think they are harmful either (I've always felt this way), and maybe they could even be beneficial.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Britster

Yes, but let's face it: the soy most are using in dog food is NOT going to be coming from top-of-the-line grocery stores, either. So comparing the cost of human products is kind of irrelevant because those companies are not going to the grocery store and shopping for the best products out there. The same can be said for meat, too, though of course.

Soy is one of the top allergens for dogs and it's also been known to cause bloat in large breeds. It can also irritate the bowels but foods with soy usually also contain beet pulp, which will harden the stool and a lot of people think that makes everything okay and healthy. Of course, soy is not the only thing. The most common allergens are beef, dairy products, chicken, wheat, eggs, corn and soy so that's kind of a long list. But why feed them to a dog who doesn't need them? It's nice that we have the options out there for a kibble to contain corn and soy, for example, for a dog who may thrive on a food like that. But I would say most dogs would be perfectly healthy, maybe healthier, not eating them. It is nice to have all the kibble options out there that we have and I don't think a few major companies should be the only food to feed. That would suck.

Why are carbs supposed to make up a majority of the food? That doesn't make sense to me. Some carbs aren't bad, IMO, but canines bodies aren't entirely meant to process a ton of them. I think having lower carb (but not zero) can be good for energy and digestibility. But I don't see why it's important for a food to be made up mostly of them. Yep, grain-free foods have carbs too (usually in the form of potatoes, sweet potatoes, peas, etc) but usually it is less (not all the time). And maybe not every dog will do good on low-carbs, I am sure there are some that thrive more on a higher-carb diet. But I don't think most healthy dogs require them. And luckily for us, most dogs digestive tracts are very adjustable. So while they can survive solely on protein and fat, they don't HAVE to, unlike cats who are obligate carnivores.



I agree with you. I think corn is not really worse than other grains.

I'm still iffy on grains. Though I used to only feed a grain-free diet, I am more along the lines now that some grain can't be that bad, and the dogs who were eating nothing but table scraps in the past were most likely getting grain as well. I still don't feel they are entirely necessary but I don't think they are harmful either (I've always felt this way), and maybe they could even be beneficial.

It might surprise you that my dog with IBD and severe allergies along with MVD/liver disease has just been put on a soy diet....

[Britster]

Originally Posted by 107barney

It might surprise you that my dog with IBD and severe allergies along with MVD/liver disease has just been put on a soy diet....

That's fine. It works for your dog. Like I said, I think it's great that the option is out there and I'm really glad you found something that is working for him.

I'm going to assume it's not kibble, right? Because I think soy in kibble could be considered different than "people food soy". Just like a lot of dogs are allergic to chicken in kibble, but not fresh cooked meat. I would think it'd be the same concept.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Britster

That's fine. It works for your dog. Like I said, I think it's great that the option is out there and I'm really glad you found something that is working for him.

I'm going to assume it's not kibble, right? Because I think soy in kibble could be considered different than "people food soy". Just like a lot of dogs are allergic to chicken in kibble, but not fresh cooked meat. I would think it'd be the same concept.

Nope, it's kibble, and it's another dog, not the pancreatitis dog. It's my dog with allergies and food intolerances. And I laugh in the faces of people who tell me to feed her meat or raw food. LOL $30,000 later spent on this dog in her 11 years and I'll feed soy if it works.

[Britster]

Oh, and I stay away from wheat gluten because that was the culprit of the big dog food recall in 2007. I doubt it would happen again since it was such a huge deal but yeah, I'd prefer to just stay away from it. But it wasn't ALL wheat, either.

In addition to wheat gluten, products containing rice protein have also been contaminated with melamine. Natural Balance Pet Foods recalled two products on 16 April due to kidney damage associated with melamine contamination despite the products not containing wheat gluten.[62] Melamine has also been implicated in corn gluten in South Africa.

2007 pet food recalls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This recall was a pretty huge deal and it involved all the major dog food companies, including Eight varieties of Sensible Choice, three varieties of Veterinary Diet, six varieties of Kasco dog and one variety of Kasco cat food.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Nope, it's kibble, and it's another dog, not the pancreatitis dog. It's my dog with allergies and food intolerances. And I laugh in the faces of people who tell me to feed her meat or raw food. LOL $30,000 later spent on this dog in her 11 years and I'll feed soy if it works.

I would never tell you to feed her meat or raw food, especially if she doesn't do well on it.

Like I've always re-iterated, feed what works best for your dog.

No matter what my beliefs or opinions are, if all my dog thrived on was a soy-diet, I'd do it to keep him alive, healthy and well.

[Ellie May]

My IBD/pancreatitis dog is also on soy, and nope, it's not homecooked.

I think even if we looked at current market prices, the price of soy isn't as low as what people may think. The stores shelves usually reflect the market.

Beef is also one of the top allergens in dogs. It's not a bad food though.

I'm not convinced that dogs would die without carbs by any means. And they certainly don't have to have grain. But then we are feeding about 50%+ protein. If that is what an owner wants to do, great. However, I will worry about their dog's kidneys. The BUN climbing up in dogs fed high protein is enough for me to say no thanks. No idea what is going on in their kidneys unless a necropsy is done. There is already some indication that dogs go into renal issues earlier in life than what we would want to believe. But the numbers don't always go up right away. In fact, they usually stay low until a significant portion of the kidneys are damaged. So I err on the side of caution. Also, both protein and carbs provide 4kcal/gram. Kcals = energy. No need to feed excessive protein for energy. If somebody wants to, that's fine. It doesn't happen here though. Taking the overall picture into consideration, I'm much more concerned about kidney function than I am about feeding lots of carbs. It comes down to the fact that after protein, fat, and vit/min needs are met, there is 50+% of "space" left for something to be added to the food. Should this 50% go to fat? Nice case of pancreatitiis. Should it go to vit/min? Toxicity issues. Should it go to protein? I guess if an owner wants it to, but I certainly don't. So what's left...

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Britster

Oh, and I stay away from wheat gluten because that was the culprit of the big dog food recall in 2007. I doubt it would happen again since it was such a huge deal but yeah, I'd prefer to just stay away from it. But it wasn't ALL wheat, either.

In addition to wheat gluten, products containing rice protein have also been contaminated with melamine. Natural Balance Pet Foods recalled two products on 16 April due to kidney damage associated with melamine contamination despite the products not containing wheat gluten.[62] Melamine has also been implicated in corn gluten in South Africa.

2007 pet food recalls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The same can be said for oats or any other grain. The better practice is to select a company that can tell you what they test for and how. I think some of the smaller companies dodge the questions -- if they respond at all. I believe Crystal is still waiting on some companies, and they have entered the dog food hall of shame in my book for their lack of customer service skills. Loved the one response "we take our own truck to get the meat" - that is scary, where do they take the truck and what meat are they getting? The least of my concerns in dog food would be carbs honestly based on what we've been reading. I am not at liberty to share this info but there are only a few companies I'd trust and even then I trust myself and my home cooking more.

[Ellie May]

Just checked the bag of HA. No beet pulp.

Yup, still waaaaaaaaiting ever so patiently on a few companies. I guess they have better things to do than talk to potential customers if those customers ask hard questions. I wonder what would happen if I sent them a "fluff" question. Bet that would get answered rather quickly.

I'd rather feed corn from a company that answers my questions instead of peas from a company that doesn't.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Just checked the bag of HA. No beet pulp.

Yup, still waaaaaaaaiting ever so patiently on a few companies. I guess they have better things to do than talk to potential customers if those customers ask hard questions. I wonder what would happen if I sent them a "fluff" question. Bet that would get answered rather quickly.

I'd rather feed corn from a company that answers my questions instead of peas from a company that doesn't.

Oh and let's not forget the company that said "we test, but it would be too cumbersome to explain". Cumbersome? Running right out to buy that company's product. Not.

My all time favorite is
"We use our own truck to get the meat"
What truck?
What meat?
I have visions in my head of some employees getting into a broken down pick up truck and scouting the area for road kill.

[Britster]

Yeah, that's pretty crappy on their part for the lack of customer service.

I will give it to Science Diet/Hills and even Purina for producing their own foods in their own manufacturing plants. I believe they both do this.

A lot of the so called "premium" brands are manufactured in these same plants where all the recalls took place. So that kind of makes me nervous.

But believe it or not, as much as I don't particularly like Merrick, they have their own facilities, too. So I guess it doesn't always matter. I believe Champion Pet Foods, Merrick Pet Care, Natura and Fromm all produce their food in their own facilities unless something has changed since I last looked. But some of the companies actually DO have reps at the facility to supervise processing, and some of them DO test the final product. I think Wellness is one of them.

And I do agree that the decision to purchase a bag of dog food is way more than simply ingredients and the nutrition analysis (not that those are UNimportant). I believe that it is equally important to buy from the source. I will agree on that notion.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Britster

Yes, but let's face it: the soy most are using in dog food is NOT going to be coming from top-of-the-line grocery stores, either. So comparing the cost of human products is kind of irrelevant because those companies are not going to the grocery store and shopping for the best products out there. The same can be said for meat, too, though of course.

Soy is soy. I don't see how there could be different grades of soy, inferior or superior, unless it is like olive oil. I have a brand preference, but I can't really say that one is garbage compared to another.

When evaluating ingredients, their quality and prices, we have to look at the producer and trade market, not the grocery store. Buying huge quantities wholesale from the producers or their co-ops is a lot different than buying a product packaged and priced for individual sale at the grocery store.

The raw food feeders often point to the price of meats and other ingredients at the grocery store as proof that kibble is made of cr@p. Yet they often belong to co-ops themselves. I would think they would have an inkling of how the trade market works.

[Ellie May]

I should go sift through those emails and see what other treasures I can find.

How about the "we never have had a recall" line. No you've never had a recall, but the FDA is on you for your stupid practices.

I do want to give the ones that didn't answer one more chance just in case the emails didn't go through.