Royal Canin Yorkie for Puppies

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I think even if we looked at current market prices, the price of soy isn't as low as what people may think. The stores shelves usually reflect the market.

I should add to my post that I agree with this too, but pricing ingredients that go into dog food is much more complex than looking at the price of a cut of meat at the grocery store and declaring there is no way that a manufacturer could produce an affordable bag of dog food unless it is nothing but sawdust. (actually sawdust would be a very expensive ingredient because it is a valuable "by-product" that is used to make other things )

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Britster

Yeah, that's pretty crappy on their part for the lack of customer service.

I will give it to Science Diet/Hills and even Purina for producing their own foods in their own manufacturing plants. I believe they both do this.

A lot of the so called "premium" brands are manufactured in these same plants where all the recalls took place. So that kind of makes me nervous.

But believe it or not, as much as I don't particularly like Merrick, they have their own facilities, too. So I guess it doesn't always matter. I believe Champion Pet Foods, Merrick Pet Care, Natura and Fromm all produce their food in their own facilities unless something has changed since I last looked. But some of the companies actually DO have reps at the facility to supervise processing, and some of them DO test the final product. I think Wellness is one of them.

And I do agree that the decision to purchase a bag of dog food is way more than simply ingredients and the nutrition analysis. I believe that it is equally important to buy from the source. I will agree on that notion.

It's probably a lot cheaper to hire a foreman than it is to hire a veterinary nutritionist. Testing should be done by independent third party laboratories yet few do this...

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Maximo

Soy is soy. I don't see how there could be different grades of soy, inferior or superior, unless it is like olive oil. I have a brand preference, but I can't really say that one is garbage compared to another.

There's different types of soy listed in dog foods. I am not sure which would be considered "cheaper".

Soy Flour

Soybean Hulls - consist primarily of the outer covering of the soybean.

Soybean Meal (Dehulled, solvent Extracted) - obtained by grinding the flakes remaining after removal of most of the oil from dehulled soybeans by a solvent extraction process.

Soybean Meal (Mechanical Extracted) - obtained by grinding the cake or chips which remain after removal of most of the oil from the soybeans by a mechanical extraction process.

Soybean Mill Run - composed of soybean hulls and such bean meats that adhere to the hulls and such bean meats that adhere to the hulls which results from normal milling operations in the production of dehulled soybean meal.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Maximo

Soy is soy. I don't see how there could be different grades of soy, inferior or superior, unless it is like olive oil. I have a brand preference, but I can't really say that one is garbage compared to another.

When evaluating ingredients, their quality and prices, we have to look at the producer and trade market, not the grocery store. Buying huge quantities wholesale from the producers or their co-ops is a lot different than buying a product packaged and priced for individual sale at the grocery store.

The raw food feeders often point to the price of meats and other ingredients at the grocery store as proof that kibble is made of cr@p. Yet they often belong to co-ops themselves. I would think they would have an inkling of how the trade market works.

SOOOO true! We have a whole commodities future trade commission (CFTC) to regulate the trading of this market.

[Ellie May]

I've seen a lot of soybean meal or soy protein isolate (which is what E eats).

Feeding trials were done on HA and I can be assured that there is an acceptable level of digestibility (because feces are analyzed in a trial). I have no idea what these other companies are doing/saying their foods are just fabulous and fit for canines, but not even doing a 6 month test to look at things like digestibility. It really appears as though $20K is just too much for them to spend. If they are taking the cheaper way out, then what else are they taking the cheaper way out on?

Choosing corn over potatoes is not my top concern. Actually, I'd just as soon they chose corn.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Britster

There's different types of soy listed in dog foods. I am not sure which would be considered "cheaper".

Soy Flour

Soybean Hulls - consist primarily of the outer covering of the soybean.

Soybean Meal (Dehulled, solvent Extracted) - obtained by grinding the flakes remaining after removal of most of the oil from dehulled soybeans by a solvent extraction process.

Soybean Meal (Mechanical Extracted) - obtained by grinding the cake or chips which remain after removal of most of the oil from the soybeans by a mechanical extraction process.

Soybean Mill Run - composed of soybean hulls and such bean meats that adhere to the hulls and such bean meats that adhere to the hulls which results from normal milling operations in the production of dehulled soybean meal.

I see. Each of these would then have to be evaluated for their nutritional value. The oil extracted from the bean is highly desirable for one product, while the remainder is used to make other products (including human foods). I don't have a problem with that. It isn't harmful (is it , other than the general debate over soy), and it still adds up in the final nutritional analysis.

[Ellie May]

I still don't understand what makes soy so much less desirable than meat. There is meat in a kibble that I am feeding, but also soy. They could have just as easily added more meat and skipped the soy. They balanced it that way for some reason. If prices are comparable, I have to believe that there is a reason SD chooses to use it sometimes. I think the amino acid profile appeals to them based off of what canines need. They don't need meat, but nitrogen and amino acids. If meat was the only right choice, Ellie would be dead by now because she hasn't had any in months. I guess the question is what makes soy so terrible and you should avoid it if you don't have to use it?

And I really don't understand why owners decide to feed high protein with the knowledge that the BUN in these dogs goes up rather easily and with the knowledge that tons of dogs are headed straight for kidney failure by age 5 or 6 and owner won't know it for years by bloods alone. Doesn't the phosphorus concern anyone? Why not be cautious instead?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by capt_noonie

Well Katie was fed Beneful, and when she started having uti and bladder problems, her owner did not feed her the rx diet she was supposed to and of course, her condition got worse. Of course we can't say that Beneful caused her to have the problems in the first place. But the cat I had before had similar bladder issues and he was fed really crap food as well. Just personally, I see a connection, even if it is purely coincidental.

I suppose the main point of feeding a dog any food, is so it won't starve to death, then I guess Beneful does its job great. But the fact they use artificial colors means they are a bad food to me. It's not proven fact that these artificial colors can cause cancer or whatever, but it doesn't need to be there, it's just for the human eye to have it look more appealing.

Now on the corn thing, the thing that confuses me is that when corn is eaten, the whole kernel, the body hardly digests it, as it comes out pretty much looking like how it went in. Is corn even a nutritious food? I have read that huitlacoche is more nutritious than the corn crops they infect. Maybe we should be feeding that to dogs too. LOL

I do tend to think of Beneful more as the McD's equivalent. Katie was kind of pudgy. But then again, she could have been free fed, I don't know.

There’s some good research that shows certain diets are beneficial to dogs that are prone to develop stones. I think it’s only certain type of stones, but I think an owner would be wise to buy those foods if the type of stone found is helped by these diets. I’m not sure any research shows that a certain food causes the stones, but we know that dogs prone to a certain type of stone do better on certain diets.

The cheaper grocery store foods fill a need for the average consumer. We are pretty lucky in that most of us can afford to feed our Yorkies whatever we want, but how about dog owners who have dogs that weigh 10 times as much? Are their dogs doomed to bad health? I don’t think I’d recommend the cheapest of any product, but rarely is the most expensive of any product a good value either. Totally agree with you on the artificial colors, and I really wish they would take them out of human foods as well. Lol, it’s true some vegetables go through pretty much unchanged if you don’t break the kernel. However, the kernel is ground and cooked so dogs have no problem digesting it.

Beneful is not the McDonnells equivalent because it’s a complete and balance diet. Beneful does more than keep a dog from starving to death, A human bowl of cereal would keep a dog from starving, but the dog would suffer malnutrition, but that’s not true with Beneful. I don’t think you can say the same for a person eating only McDonnell’s.

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

There’s some good research that shows certain diets are beneficial to dogs that are prone to develop stones. I think it’s only certain type of stones, but I think an owner would be wise to buy those foods if the type of stone found is helped by these diets. I’m not sure any research shows that a certain food causes the stones, but we know that dogs prone to a certain type of stone do better on certain diets.

The cheaper grocery store foods fill a need for the average consumer. We are pretty lucky in that most of us can afford to feed our Yorkies whatever we want, but how about dog owners who have dogs that weigh 10 times as much? Are their dogs doomed to bad health? I don’t think I’d recommend the cheapest of any product, but rarely is the most expensive of any product a good value either. Totally agree with you on the artificial colors, and I really wish they would take them out of human foods as well. Lol, it’s true some vegetables go through pretty much unchanged if you don’t break the kernel. However, the kernel is ground and cooked so dogs have no problem digesting it.

Beneful is not the McDonnells equivalent because it’s a complete and balance diet. Beneful does more than keep a dog from starving to death, A human bowl of cereal would keep a dog from starving, but the dog would suffer malnutrition, but that’s not true with Beneful. I don’t think you can say the same for a person eating only McDonnell’s.

Do you mean McDonald's? LOL I think the fact that you can't spell it shows how often you go there...you're putting us to shame Nancy!!

Sorry for the useless comment...I've been following this thread because I have nothing to contribute but I like reading about nutrition...it's jut that this made me laugh

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by roseylovestosho

Do you mean McDonald's? LOL I think the fact that you can't spell it shows how often you go there...you're putting us to shame Nancy!!

Sorry for the useless comment...I've been following this thread because I have nothing to contribute but I like reading about nutrition...it's jut that this made me laugh

Ha ha, I knew it looked wrong, but I wasn't sure what it was. That first paragraph is a dozy too, I'm going to drink more coffeeee.

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Ha ha, I knew it looked wrong, but I wasn't sure what it was. That first paragraph is a dozy too, I'm going to drink more coffeeee.

Enjoy your cup!

[Nancy1999]

Just a side note, is basic nutrition taught in schools anymore? I mean like what is a "protein"? What is a "starch"?

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Just a side note, is basic nutrition taught in schools anymore? I mean like what is a "protein"? What is a "starch"?

I had a health class in middle school, but admittedly I didn't pay much attention. My knowledge of nutrition has come primarily from my best friend who is a fitness competitor. What I do remember form my health class, I found to be pretty misleading. The dairy industry's influence on FDA recommendations for example, I'm not particularly fond of.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by roseylovestosho

I had a health class in middle school, but admittedly I didn't pay much attention. My knowledge of nutrition has come primarily from my best friend who is a fitness competitor.

Years ago, they use to be the worst ones passing bad information. (Don’t ever eat carbs! ) I think most are pretty knowledgeable now. I just think if we could understand some of the chemistry behind what these things are, we wouldn’t be so easily duped. While human nutritional needs are different than dogs they are basically the same nutrients.

Do I sound any better, I just downed my second cup!

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Years ago, they use to be the worst ones passing bad information. (Don’t ever eat carbs! ) I think most are pretty knowledgeable now. I just think if we could understand some of the chemistry behind what these things are, we wouldn’t be so easily duped. While human nutritional needs are different than dogs they are basically the same nutrients.

Carbs aren't bad, but fitness competitors do cut out a lot of carbs prior to a competition. Carbs and dairy to be more specific. This is not a "forever" thing though...it just helps slim down faster to cut these things out of your diet a month or two before competition. When preparing for competition, their carbs come from plain oatmeal, sweet potatoes, and protein powder.