Dog nutrition - what is BEST for you and your dog?
 

ok. I have struggled with this for a LONG time! I love my dogs, and i want to give them the very best i can, BUT i don't know what that is. so i want to hear from you guys. i have done some research on what is the best diet for dogs, but one thing i don't appreciate is the fact that most dog nutrition articles seems to be biased, and i don't know what to trust because no one seems to be addressing their own biases and i just don't find it convincing enough if they don't point out all sides of the story and address possible weaknesses of their own side.

i also find the subject a little overwhelming in general just because i wish it was easier, and that someone can just tell me "this is the best thing for your dog's health, feed it, have no worries and feel great about it."

here is what i have learned, I hope you will help me by sharing with me your opinions on dog nutrition.

things to consider:

What is the healthiest diet for the dog?
what is safest diet for the dog?
Time commitment
Ease - is it easy to prepare and feed?
Does your dog like eating this diet?

i have fed kibbles, premade raw, and homecook, and here is what i have observed:

kibbles:
my dogs have stinky poop, and lots of it (consistency of poop: soggy?)
they like eating kibbles the least.
this is probably the easiest on the dog owners to feed their dogs, but the quality control (from the dog food companies) and the quality/freshness of ingredients used is questionable.


pre-made raw:
hard, small, not very stinky poop, less poop.
my dogs only like this the first or second time they ate it, they don't like it after eating it for two meals. if i feed this to them, they lose weight because they don't eat very much.
again, quality control and quality of ingredients used is questionable.

home cooked meals:
my dogs love eating home cooked meals, but
lots of poop, and stinky poop. consistency is a little firmer than kibbles, but still not as hard as raw.
this is the safest diet in my opinion, you ARE the quality control. i enjoy being able to be the guinea pig for my dogs, i like being able to eat it first to make sure it taste ok before i give it to them because they can't tell me if their food taste like crap.
but i am not convinced that this is the healthiest diet for dogs.

what i prefer to feed them = pre-made raw
reason: because i just really love that their poop is so firm and it doesn't smell bad, and with firm poop, it helps them express their anal glands, which i think is a VERY good thing!

what they prefer = home cooking
i like feeding this to them because my dogs are so picky, and it makes me really happy as a mom to see them actually enjoy eating their food, however, i don't like their poop as much when they eat home cooking, because they poop more.

kibbles = nobody in my house likes this one. LOL
i don't like this because they don't enjoy eating it, and i also really don't trust ANY dog food company. (obviously this argument goes for pre-made raw as well)

i am sorry this is so long! please tell me your thought on what the best dog diet is for you and your dog, and tell me why you made your decision.

i am currently feeding all three. i feed them kibbles, i feed them home cooked, and i feed them pre-made raw. i am doing this because i am TRULY confused what the best thing is for my dogs. so i thought if i do everything, then they will get the advantage of each diet. (of course the disadvantage of each as well) but at least it's lots of varieties for them, and they seem to appreciate having the variety.

i would like to point out my own personal bias though, i like kibbles the least. i just don't trust it, what is really in it? what quality controls are in place? i think ALL pet food companies have had problems with their kibbles, and I feel uneasy feeding it to my dogs. so that's my bias. ;) (again, this argument also applies to pre-made raw, which is my favorite diet for my dogs, because the quality control is just not good enough in my opinion)

You make many good points! Many!! :rolleyes: LOL
I feed kibble, natural, holistic, no additives. Stools are not too soft. I tried several, before I stuck with one, because of sensitivities, and such.
Every day, they get kibble and veggies, pumpkin, or green beans.

thank you! LOL. i know my post was super long, thanks for reading it. someone more eloquent should re-write it for me! :p

if i opened a thread and see the length of the first post like this one, i would probably close it and be like, "uh... i will read it another day..." LOL, which is kind of how i feel about reading all these dog nutrition articles... especially since i feel like everyone is biased and i am not getting fair information...

I've never fed kibble. I've always home cooked. My friends dogs who eat kibble have very stinky poop. My girls poop doesn't stink that bad. My girls eyes are clear, bright and very alert, their skin and coat are in top notch condition and they are very happy, healthy babies.
My Vet. in fact has just ask me for the recipe that I use to fee my girls, and so did the lady who owns the vitamin store, and she has a phd. in nutrition. This just happen last week. I'm happy each time someone notices how beautiful and healthy they are. They have never been sick a day in their lives, and two are five years old and one is two years old. I love knowing exactly what my girls are eating and I love trying new foods on them from time to time.

Hi,

Our two Yorkies are the healthiest dogs ever. We feed them a combination of organic real food with a small amount of pet supplementations. Their little poops are always well formed, and not very stinky.

Here is their diet.

70% of each meal is chopped steamed green beans. I steam up a bunch and keep them in the fridge. We serve them cold. Add to that a small amount of chopped boiled organinc chicken breast, a nice portion of frozen organic blueberries (I chop them up if they are really big), steamed sweet potatoes, a dollop of either organic cottage cheese or organic plain yogurt (not low fat).

There is a company called Earth Animal that makes a terrific supplement in soft nugget form. We add one of these nuggets to two of the meals. Also, once a day I give them fish oil (Mercury free -strained available at Whole Foods) - I squeeze the fish oil out of the gel tab into their food. Occasionally I will substitute grilled Salmon for the chicken, in which case I pass on the fish oil tab.

We feed our dogs three times a day plus a tiny midnight snack of the steamed sweet potatos. We give the snack because one of our pups has a tendency to develop gastro entritis is her tummy is emptry for a long time.

We feed ZERO kibble. Totally not necessary for the health of the dog.

In the AM we do give them a small dog "biscuit" made by EVO - The Ancestral Diet.

Not to brag, but our pups poops are alway nicely formed, solid and not very stinky.

Hope this helps.

Please note that the greenbeans, organic chicken and sweet potatoes are steamed, NOT BOILED, this is for maximum nutritive value.

Best Regards,

boomerstv

I have been home cooking for Cerise since she's been home (Valentine's Day) and her poop is not stinky. It is solid and has a very faint odor. she had only one stinky poop day and that was two weeks ago when I let her eat Wellness for one day and it was a disaster. :eek: Stinky soft and too much poop everywhere! I cook a variety and freeze it then alternate the meals. She doesn't eat the same thing everyday. Yes it takes more time but I know the quality of what she is eating and the actual ingredients and expiration date :D

I must add that I bought the Wellness before Cerise came home and didn't want to waste it so I thought I'd leave some out for her for one day and YUCK!

Wow, great post! :thumbup:

Well, I think it's a never ending battle when it comes to dog food. Often when we think we've found a wonderful food, something goes wrong. Back in the day, I believe dogs were just fed human food. Now I don't know what the average lifespan of a dog was back in the 1800's so I guess we don't really know HOW healthy they were. Commercial dog food, AKA Purina, was introduced in the 1950's. I believe England had some kind of dog food earlier though. But the concept of dog kibble is actually fairly new. I had some of my grandparents dogs, etc, that lived to be over 15 surviving off of Kibbles n' Bits and table scraps so it does make me wonder sometimes.... is all this really worth it? But I feel more comfortable feeding my dog a "higher quality" food than just some grocery store brands. Is there a difference? I think there is. Maybe it's all a scam, who knows.

I personally believe that a dog kibble food should contain lots of meat and a good amount of protein. I really like for the first 2-3 ingredients to contain meat, so I know there's a significant amount in it. I know dogs would naturally eat a lot of meat in the wild and like to stand by that now, even in my 12lb Yorkie.

Like you said, the most convenient is kibble, IMO. I like it because it's easy... I hardly homecook for myself, let alone my dog, LOL. Raw scares me... I don't disagree with it, but me... I don't like dealing with raw meat personally. I wouldn't care if Jackson ate it, I just don't wanna mess with it.

Jackson mainly eats his kibble (NV Instinct - 35% protein) and at dinnertime, I usually mix in Merrick's Before Grain canned food (which is 100% turkey, water for processing). BUT, with that said... he's a pretty active, muscular, atheltic dog and I think he needs the protein. I don't know... it's just what I feel comfortable with.

I really never thought I'd care this much about my dogs nutrition (more than I care about my own!) but it's been interesting studying up on canine nutrition and after trying multiple foods, Instinct has been what's worked best for us. I'm thinking of trying Acana next. :)

:thumbup: i know right. i was doing so great with NV raw and loved it, then i read about detenurization and that their meats were not USDA approved for "human consuption" and i'm finding bone chips in it and worried Sadie will choke or get it stuck in her digestive tract. so now :thumbdown NV raw and i'm going to have to go back to home made raw...or some other raw. i'm a raw feeder to the end no kibbles for me. but i don't always trust even the raw foods because of the dangers of bad meats and rotten/bad veggies nad because of keeping it fresher and not gaining bacteria.

what to do now?

Food is such a fiasco! If it's not one thing that's an issue, it's another!

Well what works best for Sasha is a "high quality", high protein grain-free kibble mixed with a dab of homecooked. I use 4 different kibbles and rotate the protein source after every bag. This has worked the absolute best for Sasha. She used to be such a picky eater & sometimes wouldn't eat for a day when I knew she was hungry. Grain-free was apparently the way to go for her.

I did try raw with her at one point. She loved it for about 2 weeks and then refused to eat it completely. I even tried switching the flavors and still a no go. I'm not sure if I would've continued feeding it even if she did like it. I wasn't completely educated on the topic and was only giving her the NV raw (which is having problems now lately anyways).

This diet is what works best for Sasha and I'm pleased with the results. Her coat looks great...shiny & extremely soft. Her appetite is great & she looks forward to her meals now.

Great post :).

1. Not sure I can answer this one, but I like this white paper on canine nutrition
2. Can't answer this one either, bc too many things I can't control
3. Very little, with pre-made raw, which is what I feed (Primal)
4. Easy!
5. They *love* it!

I like pre-made raw for my boys bc I think it is healthy for them, species-appropriate, they love it, and I think their poo tells me a lot about the fact that it is working for them (btw, I don't think the things I've just said are necessarily unique to what I'm feeding - I've just seen the best results with my boys eating raw). I have also previously fed kibble, canned, and homecooked - all of which I think dogs can do well on, but I do like raw best for my dogs. I like the freshness of the meat, and the fact that the natural enzymes are not cooked out of the meat, and I like the bone.

As for safety of dog food - I hear you. I don't feel food is all that well protected in general though. Human food is also so vulnerable, as we can see :eek::

Human Food - Current Recalls - Meat, Poultry, Eggs

FDA, Human Food - 7 Pages of Recalls, Market Withdrawals, Safety Alerts

CDC - Human Food, Foodborne Illness Outbreak Update

Food Safety (.gov) - Salmonella outbreaks - Hydrol. Veg Protein, Italilan Sausage, and Crushed Red Pepper

FDA - Consumer Advisories

So, my point in all those links is...I don't think feeding "human food" (ie, homecooked) necessarily means the safest diet (sadly...for both humans and dogs). I think there is risk no matter what we feed and that every brand stands a chance of being recalled (understanding some have better QC than others). Of course, it would be interesting to get into the nitty-gritty of it - ie, what is the "salmonella threshold" for meat in dog food vs. human food, ya know? That would really be an interesting comparison!

Honestly, you may be feeding one of the healthiest diets :), with good variety, and varying the sources of manufacturers (thereby lessening your chances of hitting a recall of some sort) (plus, you're still saving novel proteins in case of allergies). If your kiddos like variety, maybe you have found the ideal diet for them :D!!!

Oh! One more thought....as to "what is healthiest" -- I think most Vet Nutritionists might be able to agree upon (if nothing else? :rolleyes:) the fact that a diet balanced for a canine is very important (balancing the cal-phos etc etc), bc dogs really can get out of balance and it can be detrimental to their overall health.

What is the healthiest diet for the dog?
what is safest diet for the dog?
Time commitment
Ease - is it easy to prepare and feed?
Does your dog like eating this diet?

1...I believe in raw, and it may be that you just didn't hit on one they liked...Stella & Chewies is hydrostatic pressurized, so there are no pathogens in it, and it's not cooked, so it is still natural raw...I think Primal and Bravo are both excellent too..

2...There is always a risk in anything we put in our mouths, or that of our pets...Even kibble can get salmonella, so go w/the food you have the most faith in, based on your research..

3...I think raw, canned, or kibble would be less time than homecooking, although I haven't tried that, because I burn water on the stove...lol...

4...I find raw, easy and convenient, although I would think kibble would be the most convenient...

5...My Apple wouldn't eat kibble, and was thin as a rake, 'till I put her on raw...If I think she's getting a little thin, I just increase her food, a little, and go from there....My dogs LOVE LOVE LOVE raw!!! I don't think Apple would eat kibble or canned...Buzzy Boy will eat anything you put in front of him...that boy can chow...lol...

Good luck!

Dont believe in raw, wont home cook so my dogs eat good old dog food. Wet and dry. We have fed them SEVERAL different high quality brands. What I found out.. they cant tolerate high protien foods, they do better on some grains, thier poos have always stayed hard, small and not to smelly with just about every food we tried but candiae and innova (green bags). They did the best on Science Diet and I regret jumping on the high quality food bandwagon, waisting a ton of money on food my dogs wont or couldnt eat, making them sick, and picky eaters. Of course I wont put them back on science diet cause that would make me a bad pet owner, but all this food stuff has had me stressed out and given me one super bad headache. :(.

Can't get any better endorsement for your home cooked diet than healthy dogs! Could you please post your recipe for us?

I think everyone on this board knows I feed prey-model raw and LOVE IT. Here are my thoughts on dog food, ranked in order of preference. :)

Prey-Model Raw
Pros:
-I feel it is the healthiest and most appropriate diet for my dogs. Scientific evidence proves that dogs are biologically the same as wolves and that they are carnivores and thrive on meat.
-It is cheap! We have a deep freezer and buy in bulk. We typically don't spend more than $40-$50 a month on all 3 dogs. Back when we were feeding kibble we spent around $80 a month.
-My dogs are the healthiest they have ever been. My vet was amazed at Franklin's condition.
-Cleaner teeth, no doggy smell or bad breath, smaller and less smelly poops.
-No need for supplements, raw diets are balanced with fed properly!
-I know exactly what goes into my dog food and where it comes from.
-The dogs are absolutely always excited to eat and enjoy their mealtimes.

Cons:
-There is a tiny risk of bacterial infection but most of the time this can be avoided if the raw is handled properly and the right precautions are taken.
-It can be a little time consuming but nothing outrageous. I'm willing to take the extra time to guarantee my dogs are getting the best diet possible.
-Choking hazard -- while there is a risk of choking with everything, some raw feeders have had issues with their dogs choking. This can be prevented by feeding BIG and carefully supervising all meals.
-There are no current studies that have proved raw is an appropriate diet for dogs. However, the scientific evidence that is there combined with the real-life results are enough to convince me! There are also a number of reasons why there are no studies.

Pre-Made Raw
I don't choose to feed pre-made raw all the time but I do have it on hand.

Pros:
-Already balanced and pre-packaged
-It is especially convenient for traveling and for when I forget to thaw out food.

Cons:
-It is expensive
-It contains a large amount of fruits and vegetables
-There are always concerns with quality control, as with any commercial pet food

Homecooked
Pros:
-I don't know much about homecooked but I would rather homecook than feed kibble.

Cons:
I personally feel like homecooking would take a lot of time and I'd be worried about balancing and making sure I was giving the right supplements. I would prefer to feed food in it's fresh, natural form.


Kibble
-While kibble works for some people, we have found an alternative and will likely never go back. It is the most convenient and probably cheapest, depending on what you buy.

Just out of curiosity, why don't you feed prey model raw if you don't trust dog food companies and like raw?

We'll just say that I am talking about a normal, healthy Yorkie here because Ellie is an oddball. For one small dog, I like homecooked mostly because I don't like any other choice. I won't do raw and I don't trust any dog food companies entirely (even more so than I don't trust people food companies), so what's left? While all food (dog and people food) is really scary at times, I am more confident with people food than dog food. I look at the lists of things that are in our food and think dog food has to be much worse... And for those who have the time and money, if homecooking you can go to farm stands, buy meat locally, etc. (would also be true for prey model).

There are many things that should be considered though (cost, time, storage, travelling, boarding, how many dogs and what sizes, etc.).
If I had a large dog or 3 or 4 small dogs, I would not homecook. It's just too much.
Also, the most important thing. The recipe has to be balanced preferably by a vet nutritionist. I would not feed a diet long-term that has not been. It's also pretty difficult to meet puppies' needs with this diet.

Kibble, canned, and pre-made raw I'll lump into one. I don't trust the companies. It's really that simple. It is my personal preference to not feed an entirely dry diet. It doesn't make sense to me (just my way of thinking). The canneries seem to always be in question, etc. The smaller, "holistic" companies can't put as much into QC as larger companies can. But hey, if I had a big dog or a bunch of little ones, kibble here we come!!! Unless there was a medical issue involved though, I would not withhold small amounts of people food. I'd give just enough to not throw off the balance of the kibble most likely.

Raw, I think dogs can do great on this (like all other diets). There are health benefits (like clean teeth). There are also things that are perceived as benefits like not much poop. Some may not agree that that is a good thing. The big thing now is the enzymes that it provides. But, I have an extremely reliable source that says the pancreas supplies 70x the enzymes needed to digest food (I think it is). So unless the pancreas is compromised, your dog(s) shouldn't need these. You don't really have to supplement with raw, but have to feed certain % of each thing (muscle, organ). I'm not sure who came up with this system, but??? If dogs are doing well on it, great. It just appears that we aren't using nutritional information based on solid science. Did a PhD come up with this (or maybe MS)? Was it peer reviewed? And if prey model is supposed to model a wolf's diet, does that mean wolves eat certain % of certain things? See, I just think that while this diet may have promise, there are some areas that are very sketchy to say the least. The same can be said about homecooked, but I like to follow AAFCO (or at least NRC) guidelines for that, so I don't feel like there is any risk with balancing if done correctly.

Ellie May, to answer your question, I'm not entirely sure but from what I understand, the 80/10/10 guidelines are formulated from two things. The first is that real life prey are roughly 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ. I know that if you are feeding whole prey over a week's time (for instance), then it is balanced and you don't need to provide anything else. Second, I know the all the nutrients, minerals, and vitamins are accounted for in this guideline. I can try to find the literature.

This thread has been very helpful! A lot of times when I read food threads here, it seems like people just want to defend what they've chosen, which is totally understandable, but it's hard for a newbie like me to sort it all out.

wow. that's nice. can you also share the recipe with us?
i enjoy home cooking for my dogs as well, just because it feels like it's something i can do for them to show them love, and it's rewarding because they love eating it.

haha! you can totally brag about your dogs poop here. we love to brag about our dog's poop. LOL! (i know i do)

thanks for the supplement recommendation. :D
i am a little confused about the 70% steamed green beans though?



yea, my dogs also have very soggy, stinky poop when they eat kibble. however, their poop is still not that great when i feed them home cooked meals. the only time i see really nice firm poop from my dogs are when they eat raw.

i know, i feel the same way. you are completely right about some dogs living a long healthy life eating even low quality kibble, it does also make me sometimes think if i am way over reacting about what i should be feeding my dogs. but like you said, it's what each of us are 'comfortable' with, that really is the key.

i am NOT comfortable with any of the diets, that's why i am frustrated. and i know that part of my discomfort comes from lack of understanding/knowledge about dog nutrition.


when i first started feeding raw, i also started with NV. after that i switched to primal, which i liked, but i wanted to try something new with milu so i switched again to stella and chewy's.

i like priaml and stella and chewy's better than NV, the nuggets look better than the NV nuggets.

there is a organic brand pre-made raw (Paw Naturaw) i would try next once i finish the stella and chewy bag. from the reviews i read, it seems like it's even better quality than primal and stella and chewy.

the honest kitchen also has raw dehydrated food, and they seem like a real 'honest' (LOL) dog food comopany.

i wasn't too educated on the topic before i just started feeding raw either, but then milu's poop really convinced me that it's a healthier diet.

i am glad you found something sasha enjoys eating. part of the reason this is such a big deal for me is because my milu is just so picky and doesn't like to eat. she would run away from me when she knows i am preparing her food, and that makes me sad that she hates her dog food that much!

OMG addevo and yorkiepuppy, I'm not sure if you "really" want to know what I cook up and freeze! :eek: I can tell you but not sure if your really ready for this:

10 pounds of red meat. (I use ground Bison ) You can buy inexpensive roasts and have the butcher grind it which is generally cheaper than buying the meat already ground. It’s also leaner to buy the roast and have ground).
6 packages of calf liver (cover with water, boil till done then put in the refrigerator till very cold. (save the liver broth)
2 cup of wild rice
2 cup gourmet field blend black mahogany rice (Lundberg Wehani Brand) I get these as Lassens in Santa Maria.
2 cup gourmet aromatic whole grain brown rice (Lundberg Wehani Brand)
1 cup split peas
1 cup lentils
1 cup whole grain millet (I buy at Lassens)
1 cup whole grain barley
2 cups dried vegetable mix Grain?Free Natural Dog Food - Veg-To-Bowl - Dr. Harvey's
3 large heads of broccoli, slightly steamed. Put in either the freezer or refrigerator to stop the cooking process.
Depending on the amount of time each ingredient takes to cook, you will be adding only two or three of the ingredients at a time. Look on the cooking directions.
I cook the split peas and lentils in some of the liver broth and five cloves of garlic till the split peas and lentils are crisp tender then discard the garlic cloves.
Cook the vegetables in two cups of the liver broth for about 5 minutes (covered) and five garlic cloves, turn off the heat and allow the vegetables to absorb the liver broth. Discard the garlic cloves.
Grind the meat and broccoli till fine and add all ingredients together in a VERY large pan. Mix well and put in plastic containers and freeze.

I don't use poultry, but if you would like to boil or bake up a small turkey and grind it with the other meats, it will certainly make enough food to last quite a long time depending on how many dogs you are feeding. (If you do cook a turkey to add, then you can then increase the other four grains from 1 cup to 2 cups each). I'm feeding 5 dogs right now and the recipe I make up feeds them 1/4 rounded cup twice daily for 45 to 50 days if I feed only this, but I like giving them scrambled eggs and oatmeal for breakfast once in awhile, salmon and sweet potatoes once in awhile and so on. I also like giving them a light lunch of Yogurt & berries.
My foster, Porkchop is on a diet, so she will get 1/4 of the mix with some grated carrots, baby bok-choy and snow peas. (plus two walks a day) ;)
I make the HEALTHY POWDER and put a teaspoon over their food twice a day along with Omega 3, & 6 gel cap split between them.

Is this diet a veterinary nutritionist formulated diet? I'm curious because I have home cooked for many years and recently started to use fish oils for our dog Daisy. I have been advised by our veterinary nutritionist NOT to use omega 6 or 9 products. We use only an omega 3 product.

Also, years ago I used a healthy powder recipe - loved the way it made my dogs smell. I think it was nutritional yeast that did it.

For people who feed prey - any concern about so much protein being hard on the kidneys?

Generally no, dog has evolved over many million years on a natural raw diet and that is the best and most natural way to feed them.

Kibble are just more convenient, that's all. And they have been around for 100 years or so only. Before that, people would feed mostly left over and meaty bones.

In my opinion

1.Raw Feeding (I think fresh is best but pre-made is good too)
2.home cooking
3.Kibbles

My feeling is that generally if an animal can eat it, it's a legitimate part of the diet. Humans can live healthily as both vegetarians and carnivores. Our digestive systems have evolved to allow us to get nutrition from a wide variety of foodstuffs.

So my dilemma is: dogs can also eat a wide variety of foods. A dog can live as a vegetarian. If done correctly, it will be healthy (though probably pretty grumpy). Cats, OTOH, cannot. They are true carnivores. So I have a hard time believing that dogs CAN eat vegetable matter, but get no benefit from it.

Sometimes I toy with going prey with Thor, but I am never certain enough to really commit to it.

Sure, I'll read whatever you have. :) I prefer peer reviewed and/or information from those you went to grad school for this rather than just online articles...

I'm going to try this recipe, but I'll use half portions because it's just for Cerise. :D Thank you for posting it!

All I'm saying is what "I" use for my dogs, and without any problems. ;)

Awesome. Thanks for posting!!!

Thanks for posting! Can I ask you the size of your dogs you feed this diet to and the age you think is appropriate to start a dog on a raw diet?