Originally Posted by kate07 (Post 3056820)

Thanks for posting! Can I ask you the size of your dogs you feed this diet to and the age you think is appropriate to start a dog on a raw diet?

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 3054065)

So, my point in all those links is...I don't think feeding "human food" (ie, homecooked) necessarily means the safest diet (sadly...for both humans and dogs). I think there is risk no matter what we feed and that every brand stands a chance of being recalled (understanding some have better QC than others). Of course, it would be interesting to get into the nitty-gritty of it - ie, what is the "salmonella threshold" for meat in dog food vs. human food, ya know? That would really be an interesting comparison!

Honestly, you may be feeding one of the healthiest diets :), with good variety, and varying the sources of manufacturers (thereby lessening your chances of hitting a recall of some sort) (plus, you're still saving novel proteins in case of allergies). If your kiddos like variety, maybe you have found the ideal diet for them :D!!!

Oh! One more thought....as to "what is healthiest" -- I think most Vet Nutritionists might be able to agree upon (if nothing else? :rolleyes:) the fact that a diet balanced for a canine is very important (balancing the cal-phos etc etc), bc dogs really can get out of balance and it can be detrimental to their overall health.

Originally Posted by Sweet Apple (Post 3054077)

What is the healthiest diet for the dog?
what is safest diet for the dog?
Time commitment
Ease - is it easy to prepare and feed?
Does your dog like eating this diet?

1...I believe in raw, and it may be that you just didn't hit on one they liked...Stella & Chewies is hydrostatic pressurized, so there are no pathogens in it, and it's not cooked, so it is still natural raw...I think Primal and Bravo are both excellent too..

2...There is always a risk in anything we put in our mouths, or that of our pets...Even kibble can get salmonella, so go w/the food you have the most faith in, based on your research..

3...I think raw, canned, or kibble would be less time than homecooking, although I haven't tried that, because I burn water on the stove...lol...

4...I find raw, easy and convenient, although I would think kibble would be the most convenient...

5...My Apple wouldn't eat kibble, and was thin as a rake, 'till I put her on raw...If I think she's getting a little thin, I just increase her food, a little, and go from there....My dogs LOVE LOVE LOVE raw!!! I don't think Apple would eat kibble or canned...Buzzy Boy will eat anything you put in front of him...that boy can chow...lol...

Good luck!

Originally Posted by hugz4all4 (Post 3054330)

Dont believe in raw, wont home cook so my dogs eat good old dog food. Wet and dry. We have fed them SEVERAL different high quality brands. What I found out.. they cant tolerate high protien foods, they do better on some grains, thier poos have always stayed hard, small and not to smelly with just about every food we tried but candiae and innova (green bags). They did the best on Science Diet and I regret jumping on the high quality food bandwagon, waisting a ton of money on food my dogs wont or couldnt eat, making them sick, and picky eaters. Of course I wont put them back on science diet cause that would make me a bad pet owner, but all this food stuff has had me stressed out and given me one super bad headache. :(.

Originally Posted by PrincessDiana (Post 3054658)

I think everyone on this board knows I feed prey-model raw and LOVE IT. Here are my thoughts on dog food, ranked in order of preference. :)

Prey-Model Raw
Pros:
-I feel it is the healthiest and most appropriate diet for my dogs. Scientific evidence proves that dogs are biologically the same as wolves and that they are carnivores and thrive on meat.
-It is cheap! We have a deep freezer and buy in bulk. We typically don't spend more than $40-$50 a month on all 3 dogs. Back when we were feeding kibble we spent around $80 a month.
-My dogs are the healthiest they have ever been. My vet was amazed at Franklin's condition.
-Cleaner teeth, no doggy smell or bad breath, smaller and less smelly poops.
-No need for supplements, raw diets are balanced with fed properly!
-I know exactly what goes into my dog food and where it comes from.
-The dogs are absolutely always excited to eat and enjoy their mealtimes.

Cons:
-There is a tiny risk of bacterial infection but most of the time this can be avoided if the raw is handled properly and the right precautions are taken.
-It can be a little time consuming but nothing outrageous. I'm willing to take the extra time to guarantee my dogs are getting the best diet possible.
-Choking hazard -- while there is a risk of choking with everything, some raw feeders have had issues with their dogs choking. This can be prevented by feeding BIG and carefully supervising all meals.
-There are no current studies that have proved raw is an appropriate diet for dogs. However, the scientific evidence that is there combined with the real-life results are enough to convince me! There are also a number of reasons why there are no studies.

Pre-Made Raw
I don't choose to feed pre-made raw all the time but I do have it on hand.

Pros:
-Already balanced and pre-packaged
-It is especially convenient for traveling and for when I forget to thaw out food.

Cons:
-It is expensive
-It contains a large amount of fruits and vegetables
-There are always concerns with quality control, as with any commercial pet food

Homecooked
Pros:
-I don't know much about homecooked but I would rather homecook than feed kibble.

Cons:
I personally feel like homecooking would take a lot of time and I'd be worried about balancing and making sure I was giving the right supplements. I would prefer to feed food in it's fresh, natural form.


Kibble
-While kibble works for some people, we have found an alternative and will likely never go back. It is the most convenient and probably cheapest, depending on what you buy.

Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 3054751)

Just out of curiosity, why don't you feed prey model raw if you don't trust dog food companies and like raw?

We'll just say that I am talking about a normal, healthy Yorkie here because Ellie is an oddball. For one small dog, I like homecooked mostly because I don't like any other choice. I won't do raw and I don't trust any dog food companies entirely (even more so than I don't trust people food companies), so what's left? While all food (dog and people food) is really scary at times, I am more confident with people food than dog food. I look at the lists of things that are in our food and think dog food has to be much worse... And for those who have the time and money, if homecooking you can go to farm stands, buy meat locally, etc. (would also be true for prey model).

There are many things that should be considered though (cost, time, storage, travelling, boarding, how many dogs and what sizes, etc.).
If I had a large dog or 3 or 4 small dogs, I would not homecook. It's just too much.
Also, the most important thing. The recipe has to be balanced preferably by a vet nutritionist. I would not feed a diet long-term that has not been. It's also pretty difficult to meet puppies' needs with this diet.

Kibble, canned, and pre-made raw I'll lump into one. I don't trust the companies. It's really that simple. It is my personal preference to not feed an entirely dry diet. It doesn't make sense to me (just my way of thinking). The canneries seem to always be in question, etc. The smaller, "holistic" companies can't put as much into QC as larger companies can. But hey, if I had a big dog or a bunch of little ones, kibble here we come!!! Unless there was a medical issue involved though, I would not withhold small amounts of people food. I'd give just enough to not throw off the balance of the kibble most likely.

Raw, I think dogs can do great on this (like all other diets). There are health benefits (like clean teeth). There are also things that are perceived as benefits like not much poop. Some may not agree that that is a good thing. The big thing now is the enzymes that it provides. But, I have an extremely reliable source that says the pancreas supplies 70x the enzymes needed to digest food (I think it is). So unless the pancreas is compromised, your dog(s) shouldn't need these. You don't really have to supplement with raw, but have to feed certain % of each thing (muscle, organ). I'm not sure who came up with this system, but??? If dogs are doing well on it, great. It just appears that we aren't using nutritional information based on solid science. Did a PhD come up with this (or maybe MS)? Was it peer reviewed? And if prey model is supposed to model a wolf's diet, does that mean wolves eat certain % of certain things? See, I just think that while this diet may have promise, there are some areas that are very sketchy to say the least. The same can be said about homecooked, but I like to follow AAFCO (or at least NRC) guidelines for that, so I don't feel like there is any risk with balancing if done correctly.

Originally Posted by PrincessDiana (Post 3054768)

Ellie May, to answer your question, I'm not entirely sure but from what I understand, the 80/10/10 guidelines are formulated from two things. The first is that real life prey are roughly 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ. I know that if you are feeding whole prey over a week's time (for instance), then it is balanced and you don't need to provide anything else. Second, I know the all the nutrients, minerals, and vitamins are accounted for in this guideline. I can try to find the literature.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 3055429)

My feeling is that generally if an animal can eat it, it's a legitimate part of the diet. Humans can live healthily as both vegetarians and carnivores. Our digestive systems have evolved to allow us to get nutrition from a wide variety of foodstuffs.

So my dilemma is: dogs can also eat a wide variety of foods. A dog can live as a vegetarian. If done correctly, it will be healthy (though probably pretty grumpy). Cats, OTOH, cannot. They are true carnivores. So I have a hard time believing that dogs CAN eat vegetable matter, but get no benefit from it.

Sometimes I toy with going prey with Thor, but I am never certain enough to really commit to it.

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie (Post 3059063)

wow, thank you for the info. very helpful. i think part of the reason people might be a little intimidated with the prey model diet is just not knowing enough about it. just like before i started feeding pre-made raw, i thought it was going to be totally disgusting, but after i tried it out, it really was a lot better than i imagined.

prey-model sounds like a good way to go, but i don't feel like i know enough about how to do it correctly, and it feels a little overwhelming. i don't know how to prepare it.

another question regarding prey-model: what if your dogs do not like to eat raw food? what would you do? would you try to force them to eat it? my dogs do not enjoy eating the pre-made raw, and they get pretty skinny when i feed them raw because they both run away from the food when it's time to eat. how would you handle that situation if your dogs acted like that? i thought about locking them in the bathroom(because it's a small room and there is nothing else for them to do in there) and not letting them out till they eat their food, but they just cry and i really dont' want food to be a punishment to them... i guess that's why i put one of the things as consideration is if your dogs enjoy eating the food.



thank you for the info.!
i don't feed pre-model because i don't know much about it. and i am also concerned about the quality/safety of food i get. i think that maybe for human food, they expect you to throughly cook it, it might actually be handled less carefully than the pre-made raw, because with the pre-made raw, they know that dogs are going to be eating it AS IS. so i would imagine there are safety/sanitary procedures. (more so than human food where they don't expect anyone to be eating it raw) i am not sure if this is a legit concern or not?

right now, for home cooking, i just cook the meat and add it to the honest kitchen mix. so that should be a balanced diet for the dogs, and it's really easy to do and the dogs love it. although i can also just add raw to the mix as well.

do you see any disadvantages in my approach of feeding the all three? (pre-made raw, homecooked, and kibble) i just thought this might keep food interesting for my picky dogs, and also i would be able to "diversify" my risks of feeding them something bad. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by kate07 (Post 3056820)

Thanks for posting! Can I ask you the size of your dogs you feed this diet to and the age you think is appropriate to start a dog on a raw diet?

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 3059209)

I guess I could try pre-made raw first... I have a feeling that if I started prey-model, Thor would simply refuse to eat ever again if I had to stop it. I do like the idea of Thor chewing on bones. I've mentioned before that he doesn't like to chew all that much, and his teeth are horrible. The only thing I've ever really gotten him to chew on is a flossy, and that's if I boil it soft first.

So on one hand, I like kibble because it's the only food Thor really crunches on, and I hold out hope that the "scraping teeth" argument for kibble is true. His poops are also very good on his current kibble.

FYI, this is the one thing I know about yorkie poop - it shouldn't be SUPER hard. According to Victoria Stilwell, a proper poop is formed, but will leave a residue on the ground. The dog should not have to struggle to expell it.

OTOH, Thor definitely only eats kibble as a last resort. I'm not sure if he counts as a picky eater or not... he loves pretty much everything but fruit, vegetables, and healthy kibble. He loves the local corner store, and cannot get enough of their treats. I thought they must be cookies or something, but it's just store brand dog food.

He is skinny, but not so skinny as to be unhealthy. He's "lean".

I did give him some homemade raw once (they were handing out samples), and he wolfed that down, so maybe... but again, I train him a lot, and I want him to think the treats are high value, which is easier when he is not crazy about his food.

But what the heck, I might as well try raw for a bit. :) It's another way to spoil him, and if it helped his teeth, that would be amazing.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 3055372)

For people who feed prey - any concern about so much protein being hard on the kidneys?

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 3055429)

My feeling is that generally if an animal can eat it, it's a legitimate part of the diet. Humans can live healthily as both vegetarians and carnivores. Our digestive systems have evolved to allow us to get nutrition from a wide variety of foodstuffs.

So my dilemma is: dogs can also eat a wide variety of foods. A dog can live as a vegetarian. If done correctly, it will be healthy (though probably pretty grumpy). Cats, OTOH, cannot. They are true carnivores. So I have a hard time believing that dogs CAN eat vegetable matter, but get no benefit from it.

Sometimes I toy with going prey with Thor, but I am never certain enough to really commit to it.

Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 3059395)

Nutritionally, as long as all three meet AAFCO guidelines, that should be fine. If you're asking if I'd do it, no I wouldn't. I might feed some kibble and homecooked, kibble and raw (if raw was even on my list of consdierations), or kibble and canned; but I just see no reason to feed all the different types. I really do understand your concerns b/c I have the same ones :), but mixing things up that much just isn't my thing. It sounds like you're really worried about making the wrong choice and I'm sorry. :( I question my choice regularly... In the end, I think my pick is the safest, so I go with it.

Your reasoning could be right. Not sure. But then, do these raw food companies say that their ingredients are fit for human consumption? Then I come back to the question: Why is the safety an issue if dogs can handle all of this bacteria? It tells me that some raw feeders are concerned about the type and amount of bacteria in meat, but what types and how much are concerning? So there are yet more questions... Actually, kibble feeders should be concerned about it too.

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie (Post 3060362)

well, the reason i started this thread is because i am hoping that i will be able to learn the pros and cons of each diet. and be able to make a decision on my dogs' diet that i can feel confident about.

i know what kind of a diet is healthiest for "people". i mean, i have a pretty good idea of it. not that i choose to follow what i know is healthy, but at least i KNOW WHAT IT SHOULD consist of.

are there good books on canine nutrition you recommend? something that's not biased and based on studies?

i just haven't read anything that makes me feel like i get a good understanding of what a dog's diet should consist of. i think i just need to read more about it in general. i just have been frustrated with a lot of the info i had read, i just feel like i don't really trust it since like i mentioned, i feel that most are kind of biased.

thank you so much for your support and input, i have learned a lot form your posts. i started brushing milu's teeth because of your post! (the one you talked about flossing ellie may's teeth)

milu finally let me see her back teeth yesterday, i wasn't able to get the tooth brush in there, but i was able to use a Q-tip to open her lips wider so i can see the back teeth. she has some plaque? or tarter? (not sure which) in the back, and using a Q-tip to clean it doesn't seem like enough...but it's a start.;)

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie (Post 3059063)

wow, thank you for the info. very helpful. i think part of the reason people might be a little intimidated with the prey model diet is just not knowing enough about it. just like before i started feeding pre-made raw, i thought it was going to be totally disgusting, but after i tried it out, it really was a lot better than i imagined.

prey-model sounds like a good way to go, but i don't feel like i know enough about how to do it correctly, and it feels a little overwhelming. i don't know how to prepare it.

another question regarding prey-model: what if your dogs do not like to eat raw food? what would you do? would you try to force them to eat it? my dogs do not enjoy eating the pre-made raw, and they get pretty skinny when i feed them raw because they both run away from the food when it's time to eat. how would you handle that situation if your dogs acted like that? i thought about locking them in the bathroom(because it's a small room and there is nothing else for them to do in there) and not letting them out till they eat their food, but they just cry and i really dont' want food to be a punishment to them... i guess that's why i put one of the things as consideration is if your dogs enjoy eating the food.

Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 3060372)

I use "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition"...the fourth edition. It's the "bible" of veterinary nutrition, but it is not pro raw, so I'm not sure it would be much help from that standpoint. Yes, studies are cited in parts of the book. While I don't agree with their approach that dog food is best when available, etc., I do generally agree that most of the info in the book is correct and they are the people I am most willing to listen to on the topic b/c they are the experts.

For anybody else reading this though, I should mention that it's a veterinary textbook and not an easy, one day, do ABC and you're done type of read.

Originally Posted by PrincessDiana (Post 3075997)

Does this book have specific clinical studies done over home cooked diets for dogs? Or do you happen to have any links saved or anything? I'm really interested in reading the results. I'm an advocate for home prepared food, cooked or not so I'd love to learn more.

Originally Posted by mileydog (Post 3083413)

Geez you guys cook so healthy for your dogs. What do you cook for yourself? I can't imagine how healthy you must eat for yourself?

Do you guys ever eat at McDonalds. I imagine not.

Originally Posted by mileydog (Post 3083413)

Geez you guys cook so healthy for your dogs. What do you cook for yourself? I can't imagine how healthy you must eat for yourself?

Do you guys ever eat at McDonalds. I imagine not.

Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 3083417)

Coke and chocolate, and if I'm really ambitious, a Lean Cuisine.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by mileydog (Post 3083435)

Parents everywhere seem to feed their kids pizza, cheeseburgers, sodas all the time...and then we have people on YT that cook all natural foods including crushed blueberries, boiled chickens, eggs, etc...i mean cmon if you are feeding your kids Fast Food...the dogs can simply eat some Pedigree kibbles...right?

Originally Posted by mileydog (Post 3083474)

I agree that quality food will help and I am a firm believer that diet is a key driver to living a healthy lifestyle. My problem is that although most people understand that diet is important but they cannot commit to follow a strict diet. Many times I see soccor mom's buying Mcdonalds and Taco Bell for their skin kids but they are also telling me how they are home cooking for their dogs. It just seems so odd that they don't provide the same quality of foods for both the fur babies and the skin kids. I mean to go through the extra effort to cook for the dogs and then to buy Taco Bell for the 10 year old kids makes no sense.