IM definitly no dog food expert and all the research that has been listed is interesting but its all stuff that I have read numerous times and I have a hard time believing most of it... and I have 4 dogs (diff. sizes, ages and breeds) that will tell you otherwise.. I am a firm believer that not all dogs can thrive on a high protien all meat diets. I have one dog that is on a prescription diet for life, due to a fatty blood condition that was triggered by a high protein diet. I have another dog that thanks in part to my NEED to make sure I was feeding them the best I could cant tolerate any protien level over 26 percent without getting violently ill and has allergies to just about everything that he is on a grain free limited diet that consists of lamb, peas and potatoes. I get that some dogs do awesome on all meat diets but most dont..despite what ever findings you read on the internet. If you are pro something you can find a ton of research to support that cause. I will stick to what my vet has to tell me and what reasearch she has done and what my dogs "tell me" when it comes to their food.
Bottom line is that you need to feed your pets what they will eat and do the best on.. if that means pedigree dog food than so be it..:)....

While I do agree what works for some dogs won't work for others... I definitely wouldn't say most dogs don't well on it because that's simply not the case. I find it very rare and odd that ALL four of your dogs couldn't tolerate it. I totally believe you, I'm not saying you're lying, it just really shocks me... it's definitely a rarity and not something that is common. High protein in general should not cause ANY issues... it's where the protein is coming from. If you have a high protein food but the protein is coming from crappy things, THEN it's gonna cause issues. Obviously all of us that are pro high-protein diets have done research or there wouldn't be pages and pages of qualified research posted in this thread alone. Now, with me personally, I am for raw food but I don't have the means to do it... I don't have the money, the freezer space, the knowledge or the time to prepare it. So that's why I don't feed raw. However, I am 100% confident in the food I am feeding my dog (as well as many others I know) so I think in VERY rare cases do dogs NOT do well on high protein diets. I still would never recommend Pedigree, even if my dog seemed to do well on it. Many dogs SEEM to do well on crappy foods but it will sometimes show up later in the dogs life.

:thumbup: Agree!
So far all my 5 yorkies are loving raw diet, and they've never looked so excited for any food like raw. I've been asking people in dog park if they feed raw, and I met about 5 people (11dogs) who's been feeding raw without any problem at all. I haven't met anyone who had bad experience with raw. I'm sure there are dogs who didn't do well with raw as well as there are dogs who didn't do well with some kibbles.

I don't understand the part in the earlier post (not yours Ellie) that 'most dogs with liver disease do not need low protein diets'. I can see the immediate effect on Lucy when she consumes too much meat protein such as beef. Many people that have liver diseased dogs have kept them ALIVE using low protein and 'liver friendly protein' ie - not meat. Internists that treat and follow dogs with liver disease have protocols they follow - and low protein is often part of that protocol UNLESS your dog is not symptomatic.

So while I have no partiular issue with feeding raw; I don't like raw feeders trying to push protein on my MVD dog. Certain proteins - yes. Any ole kind of meat protein - NO. HE symptoms will then rear their ugly head. And anyone who has experienced these know how frightening it can be. Directly related to the amount and type of protein in the system.

Ha. Oh boy. YES of course dogs have spleens unless they have been removed.:) I just noticed a large chunk of what I wrote is missing in that paragraph - I must have deleted it when editing. I had some interesting info about dogs without spleens. I'll post it later when I can find the article I was reading. At any rate I think dogs having spleens (unless removed of course) can be something easily agreed upon by all. :)

I fully understood what your point was and as I said I know you were just using it as an example (not a literal one). :) My response was that while I understand a body can" survive" I wouldn't say "necessarily thrive" the chances of it doing so or the percentage of those "surviving" when exposing themselves to known toxins/dangers are so slim.

Sometimes it takes us humans time to figure out that it's not nice to mess with Mother Nature. We're learning some of those lessons the hard way... like when we read about dioxins, PCBs, and other toxins being present in human breast milk. It seems that if we've learned anything it should be to proceed with extreme caution when we're heading in a different direction than what Mother Nature prescribes.

Most veg. fed dogs do not do well at all and what is meant by that from the reading/research I've done is that a lot end up with stunted growth, and malnourishment among many other things. Most studies on dogs that are vegetarian have shown dogs to be severely lacking in basic nutritional needs, particularly calcium. It's not an optimal diet. Sure dogs can "survive" on it (those on it due to allergies and digestive problems more so). Dogs can "survive" on a lot of things, but personally I want my dog to "thrive". I don't think anyone is making a blanket statement that no dog can eat a veg diet, that would be completely fallacious. Luckily, vegetarian fed dogs do get protein although the amounts aren't usually excessive and the proteins are of a low quality. Veg. fed dogs get their "protein" through nuts and seeds, pulses, soya product among other things. Ovo-vegetarians give their dogs eggs then there are Lacto-vegetarians to feed their dogs dairy products but disapprove of eggs.

Plant foods do contain protein but this is the problem: Proteins are made up of smaller units called amino acids. There are about 20 different amino acids, eight of which must be present in the diet. These are the essential amino acids. Unlike animal proteins, plant proteins may do not contain all the essential amino acids in the necessary proportions - that's a problem since proteins are needed for growth and repair and play a role in all biological processes in the body (Muscle contraction, immune protection, the transmission of nerve impulse, structural support, source of energy, etc., etc. etc.) Also if digestibility is the factor that determines how much of the nutrients are absorbed then we can all agree I think that a properly devised diet with highly digestive nutrients should form the base for optimal health. Studies show that vegetables are basically useless by dogs and they get little nutrional value from them. With veggies making up a large portion of a veg. fed dog that seems like a big issue.

Sure a feeding trial is probably a better indicator, but the AAFCO feeding trials are a joke. The weren't designed to measure the long term effects of diets. The trials consist of at least 8 dogs, fed the same diet for only 26 weeks. During this time, 25% of the dogs can be removed from the test. Dogs eating the food can lose up to 15% of their weight and condition and the food will still pass the test and be labeled complete and balanced. I'm sure if you extrapolate these figures to the number of animals eating this food for much longer than 26 weeks and you will have much more of a problem. If a food caused dogs to start losing condition over the 26 week period yet still passed, imagine how many animals would fail to thrive in real life while being fed this food for years.. I don't think studies with standards like this are good or real indicators of how dogs will do...I'd be very interested in looking at the full AAFCO studies though...

What I'd really like to know is 1) Why Zoey has always "RUN" away from any type of kibble whenever I tried to feed it to her 2) Why she is also not interested in wet food even if I put a piece in her mouth she would always spits it right out 3) Why when I home-cooked for Zoey she would eat things for a few days then hate everything and not touch it with a 10 ft pole and also she would spit out all veggies either given raw or steamed - don't tell me I'm a bad cook with this one because I'm definitely not.

Now was Zoey trying to tell me something when I try these diets above to her or what? Lol. Oh if dogs could only talk..

I have to disagree on vegetarian diets. My dog is on a vegetarian diet for over 5 years. Her blood work is perfect and she is deficient in nothing. The board certified veterinary nutritionist that formulated the diet for her has certified that it is complete and balanced. She is not stunted. She is beautiful and thriving and her condition is optimal just like all of my dogs.

[QUOTE=Melcakes;3202068]What I'd really like to know is 1) Why Zoey has always "RUN" away from any type of kibble whenever I tried to feed it to her 2) Why she is also not interested in wet food even if I put a piece in her mouth she would always spits it right out 3) Why when I home-cooked for Zoey she would eat things for a few days then hate everything and not touch it with a 10 ft pole and also she would spit out all veggies either given raw or steamed - don't tell me I'm a bad cook with this one because I'm definitely not.
:laugh:

what about their teeth?
 

i'm curious about what you do for their teeth? since dry dog kibble is supposed to be good for Yorkie teeth, do you give your dogs any bones or hard treats/supplements to their diet?
thanks,
Finns mum (and now Lola too!):aimeeyork

Not all dogs like raw. So does that mean the ones who don't like raw are just oddballs who don't know what's good for them?:confused:

I'm getting more confused. I'm just saying that nobody has proven to me that this is a healthier and safer diet and kibble will be number one until somebody can. Before I feed something, I want to be reasonable confident that it won't do more harm than good. I am not yet convinced that raw meet that criteria for me. Also, I do think AAFCO is a minimal requirement and each dog should be monitored by their owner. I also think that reviews on the internet about things going wrong with certain brands of kibble (i.e. Nutro) should not be overlooked.

And while I definitely don't prefer kibble, there are many dogs doing fantastic on rx diets. I know a lot of people on YT say they would never feed this kind of garbage (and I probably have said it before too), but when you are in a spot where your dog is sick and everything else has been tried, I'm sure minds would change.

Price is not the issue
 

Orijen is not pricey at all ... you can get Orijen Adult Dog food online:
5.5 lbs for $14.99, 15.4 lbs for $34.99 or 29.7 lbs for $58.99, those are great prices compared to other better dog foods. I believe this stuff is also sold in Walmarts.

Before Grain is a good brand and sells for a bit more but is higher grade and has absolutely NO grain. It is a dry food as well. Comes in 3 flavors, buffalo, chicken, and salmon. Prices range from $13.99 to $42.99 (for 25.3 lbs)

Eagle Pack Holistic is another great brand. Prices range from $14.99 to $44.50 (for 33lbs.) even includes glucosamine chondrotin -- no preservatives, no antibiotics,& lots of probiotics. Costly as well.

Then of course there is The Honest Kitchen which is worth every penny if your favourite member of the family wants to feel the love of a "home cooked" meal. It is a dehydrated raw food. My friends have used PREFERENCE (GRAIN FREE) which a combination of fruits, vegetables, & herbs. You can add raw meat to it if you wish but it is palatable without that even. Prices range from $25.99 (3 lbs) to $49.99 (7 lbs). But do not forget, you add water to it and each 1/4 cup yields one day's serving for our babies. So a 3 lb box can last more than 3-6 months. Costly but worth it.

The reason I am mentioning this is because some people feel that they need to say they are feeding a "pricey" dog food in order to say they are better than others. (Ahem, not so)

I have personally gone to dog shows and nutrition seminars to find the right dog food for my dogs. Price does not come into the picture. I would sooner eat less and give my dogs the best. I do not trust anything that comes off the shelves of the supermarket or Walmart, KMart or other big box stores. Nutrition is what it is all about. I treat my dogs as I do my children.

And their poops are firm and solid {ready to be bronzed :)}. I have alternated between the above mentioned & have no complaints.

Simply a suggestion.

^^ I do agree about the price. Some people think it's ohhh so expensive, but you've gotta remember, you're going to be feeding LESS of a high quality food as well. I also get Orijen for around $15.99 and Acana for $14.99 (both 5.5lb bags). I see some foods at Petsmart that are WAY more expensive than that and aren't even *that* great. Royal Canin, for example, I saw, like, a 3lb bag and it was over $18. I thought that was crazy, considering there is hardly any meat in it. Plus, with us having small dogs... it's not really that much to feed them. :)

I agree again ... just did not understand why that person felt the need to mention it was pricey ... (If you have 5 dogs, feeding them is going to cost more than having only 1-2, do the math)

Well, actually the starch in the kibbles stick btw the teeth and that's how they get teeth problem. when you feed raw, dog's saliva breaks own the protien much faster and there's nothing sticking to thier teeth. Clean breath was one of the first thing I noticed after switching to raw.

What parasite cysts are you referring to? And what parasites do dogs get from eating raw? If you could give me some specific details I can probably answer them. :)

Also, aside from the freezer question -- can you answer these questions for home-cooked? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am genuinely interested.

In my understanding, a dog's saliva doesn't contain anything to break down proteins in the mouth. Similarly, a dog's saliva does not contain amylase to break down carbs (like a human's saliva does). Although physical breakdown (chewing) begins in the mouth, chemical breakdown of proteins doesn't begin until the stomach (for both humans and dogs).

Saliva does contain lysozyme, however, and this is anti-bacterial and may help w/ oral hygiene. There are also live enzymes in raw meat itself.

IMO, teeth problems originate from lots of different sources, food being one possible source/contributor.

I tried this one and it made my dog itch like crazy. Once I swapped it out for Canidae the itching stopped. I can't figure out why it made her itch as I have used other grain free foods before w/o effects. I'm wondering if sweet potato makes her itch...

She did LOVE eating it though and I liked that it came in a 1lb bag for $2.49 so it was easy to try out.

I'll just say tapeworms for now. Dogs get tapeworms and they are present in meat (which Merck seems to think can cause a problem). So how do we know these things are being processed properly if dogs need to be dewormed?

1. Yes, the supplementation for homecooked is peer reviewed. It meets AAFCO guidelines or at least that is the standard I have for it. If it doesn't meet AAFCO or at least NRC at a minimum, I'd be concerned. That's no guarantee that a dog will do well on it, but it's better than just giving whatever vitamin supplement that looks ok.

2. It would be the same for humans. Most or all parasites and bacteria are killed at the temps generally used for cooking. I couldn't say whether all homecookers make sure the meat is done enough, but I know I do...

3. I have no evidence that dogs who eat homecooked live longer and wouldn't want anybody to believe that I do.

If you look at the life cycle of a hookworm you'll see that it's much more likely it came from the environment and not from one's dog food. Marvistavet.com is a website that helps show the life cycle of hookworms and show why it's very unlikely worms came from a dog's food and the same for Giardia too. The chances of a dogs getting worms actually lessen on a raw diet rich in bone, because a raw dogs feces are harder, which is not a parasite friendly environment. Dogs need to be dosed from time to time no matter what they are fed.

Are people are aware of the right supplementation in homecooking? I don't think they are? Are people aware of the dangers of supplementation? It's very complicated. When you supplement with one thing you can be decreasing something else. It's a big risk IMO.

Typically dogs acquire tapeworms from eating fleas, not raw meat. I've been reading about the raw food diet for over a year now and have not encountered a single dog who got tapeworms from raw meat. This is probably because the tapeworm which commonly affects dogs is Dipylidium caninum, whereas the tapeworms found in raw pork and beef are Taenia solium and Taenia saginata. These tapeworms are in entirely different families and I have not been able to find anything that suggests these Taenia cysts can affect dogs if consumed. I will keep looking though!

I think a lot of people give up on raw after trying it and/if their dogs don't take an immediate liking to it or they notice cleansing/detoxification symptoms which may scare them. They expect their dogs to "love" it immediately and gobble it down - sometimes dogs do well transitioning cold turkey and sometimes they don't and need to be transitioned gradually. When one's dog doesn't take an immediate liking to raw people think their dogs just "don't like" raw. The problem is that transitioning to raw is a big change for a dog that's been on commercial food or home-cooked. There are a lot of people that don't transition correctly and then give up on raw because they think it's not working when in fact they probably transitioned the wrong way for their dog and/or didn't give it enough time.

IMO nobody has proved that kibble or homecooked is better than raw...The research and studies that exists (mostly for commercial food and/or homecooked) is pretty scary IMO. I'd take a million years and evolutionary science that shows dogs have thrived and been brought up on raw diets just fine over diets that are showing to have more issues and problems as every day goes by. The fact is that I think raw is scary for this current generation of people who really now nothing but commercial pet food and until more studies are done on raw to ease people's minds there will continue to be doubts about raw, but there will also be people who will continue to feed raw and whose dogs will thrive as many raw fed dogs are currently.

Just found something! Chapter 5 - Taeniasis - 2010 Yellow Book | CDC Travelers' Health

"Freezing (23° F, –5°C) meat for 4 or more days will kill cysticerci." -- This applies to the cysts of both Taenia solium (pork tapeworm) and T. saginata (beef tapeworm).

If a normal freezer is 0° F (I think you posted that), then that should cover it if these organisms were able to affect canines.

Also, you posted this already but freezing raw pork for 24 hours in a domestic freezer will render Toxoplasma gondii nonviable (aka, unable to reproduce).

The raw feeding guidelines should be adjusted to reflect these recommended freezing periods as to eliminate or at least minimize risk of parasitic infection.

hi diana,

thanks for all the info. you've been adding to the thread. i have been learning a lot on this thread!

one quick question though, does raw chicken smell worse than the other meats? i buy pre-made raw for my dogs, but it seems like the chicken smells kind of bad usually, while the other meats don't smell as bad, is the chicken bad? or does raw chicken just smell worse than other raw meats?

i am hesitant to make my own raw, because i am scared that maybe it's not as safe as pre-made raw, because with the raw meats they sell at supermarkets for human consumption; they don't expect anyone to eat it raw, so i am afraid that it might not be very safe to feed it directly to my dogs without cooking first. any thoughts on that?

thanks!

Has anybody heard anything BAD about Hill's Prescription Diet I/D? Our vet put Buddy on this food as he occasionally gets diarrhea and vomits. The vet said maybe he gulps down his canned food too quickly, and then it comes back up? Is anybody here familiar with inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) in dogs? I wonder if this is what Buddy might have/or be developing. I have been reading that if your dog has IBD his chemistry panel is normal, which Buddy's is, and it also says that the cause of inflammatory bowel disease is unknown, which is what the vet keeps saying. Does anybody know anything about IBD? I am worried about Buddy, who will be 6 on August 29th.

Hi YB,

Don't know anything about this diet. We feed Schmitty and her sister anall natural diet of steamed green beans 50%, steamed organic chicken 5 - 10%, steamed sweet potatoes and chopped blueberries. Schmitty like meto add a dollop of plain yogurt too. Then we add a supplement from a company called ANT (Animal Nutrition Technologies) that is formulated from 's annual blood test.

Schmitty couldn't be healthier or happier.

We once had a bout of hemorragic gastro entritis that was awful and too scary to talk about. Since we developed this all natural diet for our pups, we have had absolutely no problems.
T

Sorry it's been so long since I've been on YT!

Raw meat is raw meat so it will obviously have a smell. It doesn't typically bother me but if the smell of chicken is too much to handle you could definitely use other meats. I don't really know how to help you there...

As far as safety -- you have to go with what you feel is safest. I personally trust the raw food I buy at the grocery store much more than pre-made raw, simply because I don't trust any commercial pet food completely. That doesn't mean I won't feed it, however.

Originally Posted by Yorkiedaze http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/ima...s/viewpost.gif
I've never fed kibble. I've always home cooked. My friends dogs who eat kibble have very stinky poop. My girls poop doesn't stink that bad. My girls eyes are clear, bright and very alert, their skin and coat are in top notch condition and they are very happy, healthy babies.
My Vet. in fact has just ask me for the recipe that I use to fee my girls, and so did the lady who owns the vitamin store, and she has a phd. in nutrition. This just happen last week. I'm happy each time someone notices how beautiful and healthy they are. They have never been sick a day in their lives, and two are five years old and one is two years old. I love knowing exactly what my girls are eating and I love trying new foods on them from time to time.


Have you posted the recipe? I can't find it, and I HAVE to find something to feed my Lacey..she won't eat anything other than what I eat.