Liver disease

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Plain milk thistle OR hepatosupport is recommended for liver compromised dogs AND denosyl or vetri-dmg.

We give our liver compromised yorkie milk thistle and vitamin E and alternate between denosyl and vetri-dmg. Ellie may is absolutely correct about the marin containing yeast and liver which are high in purines (not recommended).

Sooo, I always thought that Vetri was good but second besto to Denosyl. Are tehy equally good and why do you alternate. I thought about switching because Vetri looks cheaper but I won't if it isn't as good...

Can you just use milk thistle for humans then?
What is the dose? Any brand in particular?

[TLC]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Sooo, I always thought that Vetri was good but second besto to Denosyl. Are tehy equally good and why do you alternate. I thought about switching because Vetri looks cheaper but I won't if it isn't as good...

Can you just use milk thistle for humans then?
What is the dose? Any brand in particular?

I use the Vetri as I thought it was just as good.

I use Hepato Support b/c it has Milk Thisle and extra Vit B which is good for liver comprised b/c they may be lacking in it. Plus it is easier to use (IMO) I sprinkle the capsules into her food.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by TLC

I use the Vetri as I thought it was just as good.

I use Hepato Support b/c it has Milk Thisle and extra Vit B which is good for liver comprised b/c they may be lacking in it. Plus it is easier to use (IMO) I sprinkle the capsules into her food.

I'd like to use hepato support but I'm cheap. lol.
While Denosyl makes claims for liver protection, Vetri doesn't. I guess they are about the same but I haven't studied much about it.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Sooo, I always thought that Vetri was good but second besto to Denosyl. Are tehy equally good and why do you alternate. I thought about switching because Vetri looks cheaper but I won't if it isn't as good...

Can you just use milk thistle for humans then?
What is the dose? Any brand in particular?

The reason a lot of people use Vetri-DMG instead of Denosyl is because you can control the dosage and it doesn't have to be given on an empty stomach. It comes in liquid form, so you can give Ellie exactly the amount that she needs.

Denosyl, on the other hand, just comes in one dosage for small dogs. 90 mg is more than the smaller yorkies really need so sometimes it makes them nauseous, so they don't want to eat. There's really no adverse effects from giving the 90mg pill to the smaller yorkies, it just makes them nauseous sometimes...

As far as the vetri-dmg goes, Dr. Feinman (HomeVet© Natural Pet Care) and some other vets seem to think that Vetri-DMG may be even better. You can call and talk to him about that. They are extremely helpful over there.

Now, for the reason I alternate...I just feel like switching is beneficial. If they are missing something from one, they'll get it from the other...I alternate every month or every couple of months...

Yes, I use human milk thistle for Miko...I give sprinkle about 1/4-1/3 of a capsule onto his food per day, but I split it up into 3 meals, so that:
1) he doesn't taste it as much
2) there are studies that show it's most effective if dosage is split up into 2-3 times a day instead of once a day

The Hepatosupport is excellent too...B vitamins are very, very important for not only liver compromised dogs, but also those with GI problems.

I give vitamin B separately, so that's why I don't give the Hepatosupport.

For a brand of milk thistle...I was using GNC 200 mg Milk Thistle Herbal Supplement, but I just ordered Jarrow Formulas 150 mg Silymarin 80%. I will probably give 1/3-1/2 of a pill now.

Whichever brand you decide, make sure it doesn't contain any rice fillers or extra ingredients. Also, there are some that include turmeric and dandelion root and things like that. You have to read the label carefully.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by MauiGirl

Ok, so I paid $28 for Marin at the vet's and I now see online it is only $15; and now I hear I shouldn't use it at all. Hummm.

I'll order Denosyl and maybe vetri-dmg, and hepato support.

Yorkieluv, do you give yours milk thistle and Vit. E in a dog formula, or is human grade ok to use, and how do you know how much? Same question pertaining to sam-e, would human grade be ok, and how much.

Is Denosyl the same as sam-e? Sorry for so many questions, just trying to get educated quickly.

Marin doesn't contain enough vit. E, IMO.
I use human grade milk thistle and vitamin E. You can buy 100 IU vitamin E and pierce the end and squeeze around half to start with onto your baby's food. I give Miko more than that, but he's bigger and since you're still not sure about everything, I would say around half.
Make sure that whatever milk thistle you buy does not contain any extra ingredients...It should be 80% silymarin as well...
SAMe is the same thing as Denosyl, but I have not been able to find it in doses smaller than 200 mg, and that's too much for a small yorkie. Human grade is fine, if you can find it in 100 mg pills. Also, remember that you cannot break or crush the pill in any way because it will lose it's potency and not do any good. It must be given whole and on an empty stomach 1 hr before a meal. Morning is best b/c of this.

The advantage of giving vetri-dmg is that it comes in liquid form and does not have to be given on an empty stomach. Also, you can control the amount you give...

Do not give vetri-dmg and denosyl together b/c they are basically the same thing. Vetri-DMG is the precursor to denosyl, so you can give one OR the other or you can alternate every month or whatever you choose.


Milk thistle can be given any time of the day.

The dose of milk thistle is:
5-10 lb dog = 15% of the human dose
11-20 lb dog = 20% of the human dose
The typical dose for humans is 200mg capsule - 2x/day, so that = 400mg, and then you just have to multiply it by .15 to get 60mg per day for a 5-10lb dog...
Milk Thistle

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Plain milk thistle OR hepatosupport is recommended for liver compromised dogs AND denosyl or vetri-dmg.

We give our liver compromised yorkie milk thistle and vitamin E and alternate between denosyl and vetri-dmg. Ellie may is absolutely correct about the marin containing yeast and liver which are high in purines (not recommended).

My vet recommended Marin. Lady's taken it for years. Since Lady only gets 1/4 tablet, I don't think the liver in it is significant enough to cause a problem. Just my opinion, though.

If you give plain milk thistle, make sure you also give Vitamin E. It's an antioxidant. It's included in Marin.

[Ellie May]

One thing to be careful of if you give SAMe for humans instead of something like Denosyl is that the potency isn't guaranteed...

[MauiGirl]

Again, can't thank you all enough for sharing your valuable information. I'm a bit overwhelmed, reading, printing, and trying to understand everything, and ordering additional supplements. I'll continue Marin just for now, and hope that at 1/4 tab. per day, there isn't enough bad stuff to be harmful short term. I'll order everything else, so I can try it too.

The other vet at our clinic who will oversee Tiki's case next week is the only Board Certified Surgeon on Maui, and also specializes in integrated vet medicine including acupuncture, Chinese medicine and herbology. His link is http://www.centralmauianimalclinic.c...swillauer.html

I'm expecting that he will be open to all the support info I have gathered, and it will be an interesting consult. I will "invite" him to consult with the other experts you have all mentioned here.

It will take time to fine tune diet for Tiki. So far she and the other 2 are not wild about the Natural Balance Vegetarian, and they are looking hungy and kinda mad. They even dug under the couch cushion and got out Meika's secret stash of treats that she had stockpiled. Poor babies.

[Ellie May]

I personally wouldn't be worried about giving Marin until what you bought is used. Some vets do recommend it and it probably is okay short-term, especially since she is asymptomatic. Why waste it?

Can you mix something into the kibble to make it appealing?
Maybe a low protein canned food? Tiki will probably need a different kind than the other two though. Or maybe a small amount of mashed potato?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

The reason a lot of people use Vetri-DMG instead of Denosyl is because you can control the dosage and it doesn't have to be given on an empty stomach. It comes in liquid form, so you can give Ellie exactly the amount that she needs.

Denosyl, on the other hand, just comes in one dosage for small dogs. 90 mg is more than the smaller yorkies really need so sometimes it makes them nauseous, so they don't want to eat. There's really no adverse effects from giving the 90mg pill to the smaller yorkies, it just makes them nauseous sometimes...

As far as the vetri-dmg goes, Dr. Feinman (HomeVet© Natural Pet Care) and some other vets seem to think that Vetri-DMG may be even better. You can call and talk to him about that. They are extremely helpful over there.

Now, for the reason I alternate...I just feel like switching is beneficial. If they are missing something from one, they'll get it from the other...I alternate every month or every couple of months...

Yes, I use human milk thistle for Miko...I give sprinkle about 1/4-1/3 of a capsule onto his food per day, but I split it up into 3 meals, so that:
1) he doesn't taste it as much
2) there are studies that show it's most effective if dosage is split up into 2-3 times a day instead of once a day

The Hepatosupport is excellent too...B vitamins are very, very important for not only liver compromised dogs, but also those with GI problems.

I give vitamin B separately, so that's why I don't give the Hepatosupport.

For a brand of milk thistle...I was using GNC 200 mg Milk Thistle Herbal Supplement, but I just ordered Jarrow Formulas 150 mg Silymarin 80%. I will probably give 1/3-1/2 of a pill now.

Whichever brand you decide, make sure it doesn't contain any rice fillers or extra ingredients. Also, there are some that include turmeric and dandelion root and things like that. You have to read the label carefully.

Wow, Yorkieluv. Thanks for taking time to type all of that. We might switch knowing that it would be about $50 a year compared to the $225 a year for Denosyl since it is just as good or maybe alternate because I really do like Denosyl.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I personally wouldn't be worried about giving Marin until what you bought is used. Some vets do recommend it and it probably is okay short-term, especially since she is asymptomatic. Why waste it?

Can you mix something into the kibble to make it appealing?
Maybe a low protein canned food? Tiki will probably need a different kind than the other two though. Or maybe a small amount of mashed potato?

I agree about the Marin...If your baby is *completely* asymptomatic, I wouldn't waste the pills. I would go ahead and finish them But for dogs who do have symptoms of liver disease, I never recommend the Marin b/c even small amounts of things like that can have an effect on them. My yorkie, for example, reacts to even the smallest things. He's one of the more severe cases, but we keep his symptoms completely under control by being very careful about what we give him, supplements, special food, lactulose, etc.

Be careful with "low protein" foods b/c you have to convert to a dry matter basis to be able to actually see how much protein is in them.

Take the percentage of protein listed and divide by (100 minus the percentage of moisture listed). For example:
Canned food A:
8% protein
80% moisture

Take 8 (protein) and divide by 20 (b/c 100 - 80(moisture) = 20) and you get .40 which is actually 40% protein.
So that canned food that you thought was low protein b/c it listed 8% protein is actually 40% protein.

[MauiGirl]

She has not had any of the classic symptoms, but on a more subtle level I think she appears to be somewhat thin and has sort of thin hair. She weighs a little over 7#, and had gained 1 lb. last month, but she's long. She eats well (except with new food), is very active with lots of energy. The only way I knew she had a problem was from pre-spay blood work.

At 1/4 tab per day, it will take 120 days to use up the Marin, so I'm ordering everything else to have handy when I want to switch.

She turns her nose up at canned food, and I'm just giving her the tiniest bit of boiled chicken and rice mixed in kibble. Would it be ok to try a little egg or cottage cheese as an alternative to her chicken bites?

I'm just winging it here to get started learning, as the vet hasn't actually recommended a diet change yet, though she agreed that it wouldn't be a bad idea to cut back on protein.

How often do you repeat BATs in your liver challenged babies, for maintenance purposes?

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by MauiGirl

She has not had any of the classic symptoms, but on a more subtle level I think she appears to be somewhat thin and has sort of thin hair. She weighs a little over 7#, and had gained 1 lb. last month, but she's long. She eats well (except with new food), is very active with lots of energy. The only way I knew she had a problem was from pre-spay blood work.

At 1/4 tab per day, it will take 120 days to use up the Marin, so I'm ordering everything else to have handy when I want to switch.

She turns her nose up at canned food, and I'm just giving her the tiniest bit of boiled chicken and rice mixed in kibble. Would it be ok to try a little egg or cottage cheese as an alternative to her chicken bites?

I'm just winging it here to get started learning, as the vet hasn't actually recommended a diet change yet, though she agreed that it wouldn't be a bad idea to cut back on protein.

How often do you repeat BATs in your liver challenged babies, for maintenance purposes?

If she likes chicken and rice, you could try the recipe I make for Lady.

1 cup raw rice
1 cup low fat cottage cheese
1 hard boiled egg
1 cup diced chicken breast
1 T canola oil
1 tsp bone meal
1 tsp salt substitute

You need to give an infant multivitamin drop daily with this recipe.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by MauiGirl

She has not had any of the classic symptoms, but on a more subtle level I think she appears to be somewhat thin and has sort of thin hair. She weighs a little over 7#, and had gained 1 lb. last month, but she's long. She eats well (except with new food), is very active with lots of energy. The only way I knew she had a problem was from pre-spay blood work.

At 1/4 tab per day, it will take 120 days to use up the Marin, so I'm ordering everything else to have handy when I want to switch.

She turns her nose up at canned food, and I'm just giving her the tiniest bit of boiled chicken and rice mixed in kibble. Would it be ok to try a little egg or cottage cheese as an alternative to her chicken bites?

I'm just winging it here to get started learning, as the vet hasn't actually recommended a diet change yet, though she agreed that it wouldn't be a bad idea to cut back on protein.

How often do you repeat BATs in your liver challenged babies, for maintenance purposes?

Miko is also not a "tiny" yorkie...He weighs in at just above 11 lbs though People have a misconception that only the "tiny" yorkies are the ones at risk...His hair was also thinner and a bit more brittle than others.
Yes, egg white and low sodium, low or nonfat cottage cheese (Friendship brand makes a low sodium kind) are good alternatives for her.
It's not really just a cut back in protein b/c protein is important, it's giving the right type and spread out over several meals. Meats produce more ammonia, so that's why vegetarian/dairy/egg proteins are recommended instead.

[MauiGirl]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

If she likes chicken and rice, you could try the recipe I make for Lady.

1 cup raw rice
1 cup low fat cottage cheese
1 hard boiled egg
1 cup diced chicken breast
1 T canola oil
1 tsp bone meal
1 tsp salt substitute

You need to give an infant multivitamin drop daily with this recipe.

This looks interesting, but what is "raw" rice, and is it cooked? Before this all came up, I've been boiling a couple boneless, skinless chicken breasts, with some baby organic carrots, and jasmine rice.