Bile acid test question

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

If she does have MVD, liver shunt, or a liver disease like that, any type of food with red meat like venison would not be good for her at all...Venison is good for healthy dogs but not liver compromised dogs....Red meat produces the most amount of toxins and overworks their livers...Also, duck is not recommended for liver compromised dogs because of the tryptophan..

If she has a liver condition, these foods may have caused the increase in the bile acid test results...But if this is the case, then obviously these foods are not optimal for her and it points towards liver problems...
Did they do other bloodwork the last time you took her in? If so, what was her ALT?
How old is Samie?

I do not recommend having an ultrasound liver biopsy done because the sample is so tiny that it might not show abnormalities in the liver... If you do a biopsy, make sure they actually go in and take several samples not through needle biopsy...

If you have an ultrasound done, make sure it is a doppler u/s...Remember, a u/s is only as good as the person reading it...Just because they don't see a shunt does not mean she does not have one. A u/s will show if the liver is normal size or atrophied and will show if there are any stones/crystals in the bladder...Other than that, I would not count on it showing a shunt.

An u/s also won't show if there is MVD. The only way to confirm MVD is to do a biopsy.

It's hard to say what to do next...It depends what you want to do...

There is a protein C test also...

Keep in mind, there are several things that can cause the bile acid test results to be high, so it may not even be MVD or liver shunt, but with yorkies being 36 times more likely to have this than all other breeds combined, it's always good to rule it out.

samie is being treated for calcium oxalate crystals. we give her potassium citrate in her food. Other meds she is on is Flovent inhaler and her soloxine.
her ph was 8.0 last urinalysis. No more of the venison or duck. i have something else i can give them their meds with. until i can get something else. i have no idea what other canned food to get to give the meds with. maybe wellness other canned foods would be ok- they make a ocean whitefish.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

If she does have MVD, liver shunt, or a liver disease like that, any type of food with red meat like venison would not be good for her at all...Venison is good for healthy dogs but not liver compromised dogs....Red meat produces the most amount of toxins and overworks their livers...Also, duck is not recommended for liver compromised dogs because of the tryptophan..

If she has a liver condition, these foods may have caused the increase in the bile acid test results...But if this is the case, then obviously these foods are not optimal for her and it points towards liver problems...
Did they do other bloodwork the last time you took her in? If so, what was her ALT?
How old is Samie?

I do not recommend having an ultrasound liver biopsy done because the sample is so tiny that it might not show abnormalities in the liver... If you do a biopsy, make sure they actually go in and take several samples not through needle biopsy...

If you have an ultrasound done, make sure it is a doppler u/s...Remember, a u/s is only as good as the person reading it...Just because they don't see a shunt does not mean she does not have one. A u/s will show if the liver is normal size or atrophied and will show if there are any stones/crystals in the bladder...Other than that, I would not count on it showing a shunt.

An u/s also won't show if there is MVD. The only way to confirm MVD is to do a biopsy.

It's hard to say what to do next...It depends what you want to do...

There is a protein C test also...

Keep in mind, there are several things that can cause the bile acid test results to be high, so it may not even be MVD or liver shunt, but with yorkies being 36 times more likely to have this than all other breeds combined, it's always good to rule it out.

This is very important. If they do a biopsy, make sure they take several samples.

[sadiesamie]

I have to sign off for the night but i will check back tomorrow. thanks for writing. i really appreciate you. will you be back tomorrow? :-)

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by sadiesamie

samie is being treated for calcium oxalate crystals. we give her potassium citrate in her food. Other meds she is on is Flovent inhaler and her soloxine.
her ph was 8.0 last urinalysis. No more of the venison or duck. i have something else i can give them their meds with. until i can get something else. i have no idea what other canned food to get to give the meds with. maybe wellness other canned foods would be ok- they make a ocean whitefish.

Does Samie have hypothyroidism?? I ask because she is on soloxine...

Is it possible for the hypothyroidism or the hypothyroidism meds to be affecting her liver; therefore, affecting the ALT values?? Or is it possible that she may have abnormalities in the liver ALONG with hypothyroidism?

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by TLC

Here is a perfect example. Roxy and TJ show NO signs of liver shunt. I never even knew what MVD was. Both have had routine blood work and nothing strange about it.

My groomer purchased 2 yorkies from the same place mine came from, she also told me that a customer also purchased a male from them too. The male died after 9 months, and one of her females has a compromised liver.

So, off to the Vet we went to get Both Roxy and TJ Bile Acid Tested.

Well, THANK GOD I did, and my Vet said that as well too, b/c he would have NEVER suggested it.

Roxy's post # was 100.9 - That's very high, I think it should be under 20 - They say 100 and above is LS territory

Thankful, after some testing, etc...We do believe that Roxy has MVD, although I won't know for sure, I'd have to get a liver biopsy and I am not sure about that just yet.

TJ's post # was 43 - High again too

I retested BAT 2 months after. Roxy's post # came down to 67 and TJ to 21.5

Since August they have been on a special diet and supplements. I have an appt to retest BAT again on 1/21 - I am hoping that TJ's # stay low. Roxy I am sure will still have a high #, but I am hope for as low as possible.

So, YES - I too recommend BAT - It's relatively inexpensive. It's $80 here on Long Island, NY

we too are experiencing the high values. If you don't mind me asking, what special diet and supplement do you give?

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Does Samie have hypothyroidism?? I ask because she is on soloxine...

Is it possible for the hypothyroidism or the hypothyroidism meds to be affecting her liver; therefore, affecting the ALT values?? Or is it possible that she may have abnormalities in the liver ALONG with hypothyroidism?

yes both of my girls hypothroidism. Both on soloxine. Do you think her ALT values were high. her last reading 6 mos ago showed 25- range is 5-107. or do you mean her bat values? I also am still on line. :-) my hubby went to bed w/o me LOL... not when i get news like today- of course i am going to want to research...

btw- samie shows NO symptoms. she is happy, playful and energetic. very good appetite. Normal stool. but before we found out she was hypothyroid she was very lethargic and put on weight- she was very mopey. since the soloxine big changes with her. The past year lots going on with both of my girls. I have got to be forming ulcers by now. I have just been very worried that's all. always on my mind...

[Yorkieluv]

Sorry, yes, I meant BAT results...It's late!! LOL
Do you know her ALT values for this last time?
I hope you get some answers...Poor Sadie and Samie and you!!

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Sorry, yes, I meant BAT results...It's late!! LOL
Do you know her ALT values for this last time?
I hope you get some answers...Poor Sadie and Samie and you!!

no ALT values on this work up i have. I got that latest one off of her blood panel we did when we found out about the hypothryoidism. oh it surely has been quite a year. I was really hoping 2008 woud bring better news for them both. All's i know is my girls LOVE this wellness canned venison and also duck. NO MORE though... I am thinking tomorrow we are going to tell the vet that we #1 want to be referred to a specialist. I will give you some backround on us tomorrow. i need to get something else to give meds with. I checked in the pantry and no other dog food in there to get by until i get to the store tomorrow. Sadie gets 2 pills and samie gets her 1 (soloxine)
i guess i can put it in some smashed up wet dog food. Because i really don't want her to have this food (even though she LOVES it) anymore. Too much going on with her to risk anything. Wellness makes a oceanfish canned- do you think that would be ok?

I think it would better because i know that venison and duck are richer meats. higher in protein, etc. but i am not sure about the whitefish. I jbuy any of that flavor bc the thought of feeding a dog fish??? i don't know- supposed to be good for the skin and god knows- my other dog has skin issues. the only reason we have been putting off allergy testing on her (sadie) is bc of the finacial problems we ran into with both of them last year. so i wanted to try a different food first- then if still not better then do allergy testing. but the liver issues now far outweigh allergy testing. Sadie itched constantly while on the hills food.

yeah it is late- i will get only 4 hrs of sleep tonight and i am very tired. i will be back tomorrow. thanks for writing. you really brought me a sense of relief this evening! I know we are stil lin the dark here but my vet gets so overly dramatic. I am still worried don't get me wrong but for right now- i want to rest and research more and tell the vet tomorrow that we are not jumping into things this w/end. they sometimes just rush you into doing so many tests. With my sadie we did so many tests on her- 3000.00 later to take visit to see a specialist to find out she was undermedicated. long story- i will fill you in though tomorrow. thanks for listening. i appreciate you sooooooooooooo much!

Hugs!!!!

[sadiesamie]

I also am thinking back off of the canned food use only for meds- i will get something else tomorrow in a canned. but i also want to order some of the hepato support. Would it hurt to give to both of my girls? do they sell it at maybe GNC healthfood store or does it strictly have to be ordered. I don't even know if i would need a prescription? I do not hesitate when it comes to my angels. If I read about something that could help i go and get it immediately. no matter what the cost- nothhing. :-)

[Ladymom]

Ultrasounds are only 80% accurate in diagnosing liver shunts according to studies done at the University of Tennessee (Dr. Tobias). Dr. Center estimates their accuracy to be as low as 60%.

Your next step after a BAT would be a Protein C test and depending on the results, a scintigraphy, not an ultrasound.

A liver biopsy would be your last resort, only after the Protein C test and scintigraphy. Since it is an invasive surgical procedure, hopefully it can be avoided.

If you vet has questions, why don't you have him contact Dr. Center? She is very accessible for consults.

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...2675&O=Generic

[Ellie May]

Does she have any food allergies?
Could you please name all of her symptoms in one post and all her diagnoses?
I am getting confused because there are so many things wrong and you have two dogs. I can barely keep up with my own.

Is this right:
Hypothryroidism
Calcium Oxalate Stones

Medicines are:
Soloxine
Potassium Citrate

[TLC]

Originally Posted by sadiesamie

we too are experiencing the high values. If you don't mind me asking, what special diet and supplement do you give?

The following is what I feed Roxy and TJ - Please note that this works for them. I measure out each meal specific to what Roxy should get and what TJ should get. I feed them 2x a day.
Their meals consist of:

Spinach Egg Noodles
Organic Brown Eggs
Organic Low Fat Cottage Cheese
Organic Pureed Raw Carrots
Organic Frozen Cut Green Beans
Organic Sweet Potato (Baked into French Fries)
Organic White Potato (Baked into Frencj Fries)
Dried Cranberries
Dried Blueberries
Organic Golden Delicious Raw Apple Pieces

They get the following supplements:
Coconut Oil
Brown Egg Shells (for Calcium)
Vitamin E
Fish Oil
Vetri-DMG-Metabolic
Hepato Support
Synovi G3 Granuals

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by TLC

The following is what I feed Roxy and TJ - Please note that this works for them. I measure out each meal specific to what Roxy should get and what TJ should get. I feed them 2x a day.
Their meals consist of:

Spinach Egg Noodles
Organic Brown Eggs
Organic Low Fat Cottage Cheese
Organic Pureed Raw Carrots
Organic Frozen Cut Green Beans
Organic Sweet Potato (Baked into French Fries)
Organic White Potato (Baked into Frencj Fries)
Dried Cranberries
Dried Blueberries
Organic Golden Delicious Raw Apple Pieces

They get the following supplements:
Coconut Oil
Brown Egg Shells (for Calcium)
Vitamin E
Fish Oil
Vetri-DMG-Metabolic
Hepato Support
Synovi G3 Granuals

Can I come over for dinner?

[TLC]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Can I come over for dinner?

You can, but Roxy isn't sharing (hehehehehe)

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by TLC

You can, but Roxy isn't sharing (hehehehehe)

LOLOLOL

I would love to see Roxy and Ellie eat together. I wonder what they would do to each other.


Original Poster: Sometimes Wysong SENIOR canned is okay but I think it might have corn in it...maybe? Is she allergic to corn?