question

[lara2913]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

It seems like there have been quite a few raw debates around here lately. I thought I would give my point of view since everyone else has given theirs.

Great! Its always good to have lots of opinions

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Someone asked, "What is wrong with the food from the pet store?". It is overprocessed garbage. Kibble is meat and vegetables (and chemicals) baked together into hard crunchy things, bagged up and fed after six months of sitting around. I don't care what brand it is. I cannot believe that that is a good diet for anybody. Then this same food is fed twice a day forever. Now I have fed kibble recently and sometimes there is no choice (when you go away for the day and they need to eat), but I refuse to say any kibble is optimal.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Canned food is just slightly better quality garbage. I would feed this over kibble anytime but it is still canned meat which sort of grosses me out and it isn't fit for human consumption, so that makes me wonder where they are getting the stuff from.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I do not feed raw. I never have and I don't think I ever will. I most definately would never give Ellie bones of any kind. I believe that is a good way to tear up the stomach and intestines. I'm still researching though. The raw feeding thing is just something I couldn't do.

Ummmmm, well some of us would beg to differ. More than anything its the type of bone that needs to be considered. Generally speaking, its cooked bones, beef bones, the leg bones of large animals and bones that are an inapropriate size for the said dog that can cause problems. Its all about research and 'know thy dog' really. Myself, I consider the risks of appropriate raw meaty bones doing damage to my dogs to be lower that the risk of serious dental dieseses that they could get if they were not eating rmb's. Of course you can just brush your dogs teeth, that will have some effect, however there was recently a recall on a type of dog toothpaste, how do we know petzlife won't be next?

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I do homecook and am in 100% agreement with it. I know you do have to supplement but atleast the food is fit for human consumption. Since it's cooked I don't have to be concerned about bacteria and parasites. Ellie doesn't need bones if I supplement with calcium. She is a happy dog because she gets something that tastes good. She loves her meals. I'm not forcing her to eat dry dust everyday of her life (been there, done that, wish I wouldn't have).

Are you sure about that? A few years ago I became very ill after contracting salmonella poisening from a store bought chicken sandwich. Bacteria is everywhere.

All the food my dogs eat is deemed fit for human consumption.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I'm not saying homecooked is the only way, but it is the only way for US right now. This is my OPINION and everyone is entitled to their own, so please no bashing.

I am complete agreement that home cooked is much better than kibble. If I was to have a dog who had some sort of issue that meant they could not eat raw, I would home cook. Because I would move heaven and earth before feeding kibble. Your right, everyone in entitled to their own opinions and its great to hear them!

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by lara2913

Personally, I woulden't consider evolution a theory, but thats a whole 'nother debate

Yes, another debate altogether.

Originally Posted by lara2913

Well, some things I already mentioned, they have very thick stomach linings, strong stomach acids and different digestive enzymes to us. Those are all facts.

Agreed. (Although feeding whole bones--different subject again--still pose possible risks to stomachs, intestines, and teeth.)

Originally Posted by lara2913

Do you have any 'proven' research that commercial pet food is safe? The pet food recall would suggest otherwise...

Heck, recalls happen all the time...my Totinos pizzas got recalled last month! Seriously, depends on what you consider 'proven.' You could argue there is no proof for either side. Maybe 'extensive' research was a better choice of phrase...

Originally Posted by lara2913

Well, some things are killed through freezing for at least 48 hours and there are many that affect humans but not dogs. Now, of course raw is not risk free, but nothing is, there is no evidence to suggest that commercial pet food is any safer, as I already mentioned, the pet food recall would suggest otherwise.

True, freezing does kill out many (not all) things and contaminates are everywhere. Of course, if freezing first is the key, that throws out that whole 'it's what they eat in the wild' argument, huh? Cooking (home or commercial) does eliminate alot of those risks...although you then have to supplement for some things lost in the cooking process. Guess you have to decide which is a bigger concern for you.

Originally Posted by lara2913

Potentially yes, but it is almost unbeliveably rare and only really presents itself in dogs who are already immune compromised.

I believe some of those recalls you mentioned were because the products were found to contain Salmonella? So either 1) those recalls weren't needed should be taken out of the equation for that argument, or 2) it does pose some threat....
The article was interesting. I've never really looked into how Salmonella (and other bacteria that plague humans) affect dogs differently...glad you brought this up....I'm going to try to look into it more.

Originally Posted by lara2913

People who home cooked have to add supplements to their dogs diet because a home cooked diet is not balanced by itself, raw is, no supplentation is needed with raw, I have always thought that speaks volumes.

True, supplements do have to be added, but the important things is that the dogs ARE getting them. If it's just a matter of what is the more 'convenient' way of doing it....
As far as it being 'balanced,' that, IMO is up for debate. Most of the non-captive wolves (since that is the example you gave) studied who eat this 'natural raw' diet are highly malnourished. So, something's missing somewhere....

Originally Posted by lara2913

Well, depends on what specific chemicals your talking about? If your talking about for example when animals being raised for meat are vaccinated, there are incredibly strict guidlines as to how soon after chemicals are put in in an animal can they be slaughtered. Its pretty specific so that the chemicals will be out of the animals system. All the meat my dogs eat is sold as fit for human consumption (unlike what is in mose dog foods.)

Actually, I wasn't talking about vaccines (or steroids for that matter) but that doesn't help ease my mind about it. It may be fit for human consumption...but would YOU eat it raw? And I won't argue with you that I wouldn't eat the meat used for most dog foods either...even the so called 'high end, high quality' ones. Heck, I can't even think about what's in a hot dog too much or I won't eat it!

Originally Posted by lara2913

Some good questions, always nice to have a two sided debate

Agreed! And one that is civil. That is a rare occurance many times! Thanks for that and bringing up some thought provoking ideas and points.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by lara2913

Ummmmm, well some of us would beg to differ. More than anything its the type of bone that needs to be considered. Generally speaking, its cooked bones, beef bones, the leg bones of large animals and bones that are an inapropriate size for the said dog that can cause problems. Its all about research and 'know thy dog' really. Myself, I consider the risks of appropriate raw meaty bones doing damage to my dogs to be lower that the risk of serious dental dieseses that they could get if they were not eating rmb's.

I'm sure you could have a line of vets telling you horror stories about this. Not to mention it can easily break their teeth. Wouldn't the nutritional benefit be the same if the bones were just ground up.
Most wolves studied in the wild (thank you Animal Planet) have broken teeth, intestinal tears and damage. There was actually a vet w/ a website that talked about this in detail and it had some of the x-rays on it....maybe I can find it again...

Originally Posted by lara2913

Are you sure about that? A few years ago I became very ill after contracting salmonella poisening from a store bought chicken sandwich. Bacteria is everywhere.

Key words...you bought it...you don't know how it was cooked, stored or what it was exposed to before you ate it. Most restaraunts are required to cook their meat to a certain temp before serving it. It's the first thing they tell you if you ask for rare or medium rare cooked food these days. There is reasoning behind that.

[lara2913]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Agreed. (Although feeding whole bones--different subject again--still pose possible risks to stomachs, intestines, and teeth.).

Kind of answered by view on that in my last post to Ellie May.

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Heck, recalls happen all the time...my Totinos pizzas got recalled last month! Seriously, depends on what you consider 'proven.' You could argue there is no proof for either side. Maybe 'extensive' research was a better choice of phrase... .

The pet food recall was very serious though, alot of dogs actually became very sick and some died.

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

True, freezing does kill out many (not all) things and contaminates are everywhere. Of course, if freezing first is the key, that throws out that whole 'it's what they eat in the wild' argument, huh? Cooking (home or commercial) does eliminate alot of those risks...although you then have to supplement for some things lost in the cooking process. Guess you have to decide which is a bigger concern for you..

Agreed. In my view, i'm feeding a species appropriate diet and perhaps taking some extra precautions, alot of raw feeders don't.

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I believe some of those recalls you mentioned were because the products were found to contain Salmonella? So either 1) those recalls weren't needed should be taken out of the equation for that argument, or 2) it does pose some threat....
The article was interesting. I've never really looked into how Salmonella (and other bacteria that plague humans) affect dogs differently...glad you brought this up....I'm going to try to look into it more..

Some of them may have been for salmonella, but then of course another debate is that fresh sources that may have low levels of salmonella would be safer than salmonella infested kibble that has been sitting in a bag multiplying for months or even years. They were infected with all sorts of other harful things too. I guess the way it is, I personally choose to take responsibility of my own dogs diet, rather than let a commercial company do it for me.

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

True, supplements do have to be added, but the important things is that the dogs ARE getting them. If it's just a matter of what is the more 'convenient' way of doing it....
As far as it being 'balanced,' that, IMO is up for debate. Most of the non-captive wolves (since that is the example you gave) studied who eat this 'natural raw' diet are highly malnourished. So, something's missing somewhere....

Remember that I do take the time to ensure I am feeding a wide variety of different foods and I think about what nutrients are in what food sources I feed. Again as I said earlier on, its about feeding a species approproate diet, but making sure you do it right. Best of both worlds as far as i'm concerned.

http://rawfed.com/myths/balance.html

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Actually, I wasn't talking about vaccines (or steroids for that matter) but that doesn't help ease my mind about it. It may be fit for human consumption...but would YOU eat it raw? And I won't argue with you that I wouldn't eat the meat used for most dog foods either...even the so called 'high end, high quality' ones. Heck, I can't even think about what's in a hot dog too much or I won't eat it!

Sushi....steak tartare

But overall, i'm not a dog.

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Agreed! And one that is civil. That is a rare occurance many times! Thanks for that and bringing up some thought provoking ideas and points.

Your welcome

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

There was actually a vet w/ a website that talked about this in detail and it had some of the x-rays on it....maybe I can find it again...

Found it...

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html


Wanted to add....in regards to the 'compromised immune system.' That is something that dogs who are excessively, mass bred (like Yorkies are being now) and dogs that are closely bred within a line (like Biewers) are at higher risk for. Same is true in cats....thus the feline AIDS epidemic more common in breeds with histories of line breeding. So don't count on the immune systems of this breed given it's current state to be a safe way of protecting the animal.

[lara2913]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I'm sure you could have a line of vets telling you horror stories about this. Not to mention it can easily break their teeth. Wouldn't the nutritional benefit be the same if the bones were just ground up.
Most wolves studied in the wild (thank you Animal Planet) have broken teeth, intestinal tears and damage. There was actually a vet w/ a website that talked about this in detail and it had some of the x-rays on it....maybe I can find it again....

As I already said, its about the type of bone fed, I am very careful about which bones I choose to feed. It is based on years of research. Bones that are responsible for breaking teeth are what RAW feeders nickname 'wreck' bones, these are beef bones and the leg bones of large animals.

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Key words...you bought it...you don't know how it was cooked, stored or what it was exposed to before you ate it. Most restaraunts are required to cook their meat to a certain temp before serving it. It's the first thing they tell you if you ask for rare or medium rare cooked food these days. There is reasoning behind that.

Of course, but do you know how the meat in kibble is cooked?

[lara2913]

http://rawfed.com/myths/ground.html

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by lara2913

Of course, but do you know how the meat in kibble is cooked?

Wasn't talking about kibble. It was in reference to someone who mentioned cooking the meat vs feeding raw, when you brought up your experience. I know how meat is cooked in my house. If you contract something from something cooked elsewhere, you can't really put your finger on what caused it.

As far as the sushi comment....tuche...and Blech!

As far as the bones...makes sense I suppose. I just have to assume (and hope) that the caution and careful consideration YOU demonstrate is widely practiced. We've given our hound bones before (not poultry) and not given it much thought...hmmm...just not as part of her 'diet' but I guess it's basically the same thing....interesting...

[dabrat76]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

It may be fit for human consumption...but would YOU eat it raw?

Actually, while I know you weren't addressing ME, raw beef is also part of the raw diet for some dog owners and I do and have eaten raw or virtually raw beef. I used to eat raw hamburger as I kid (little bites till the parents caught on! lol), I've eaten steak tartar which is raw beef and I eat my steaks blue. So while I wouldn't eat raw chicken (not a big fan of it cooked though, either) raw beef is certainly consumed by millions of people in varying forms around the world. Just another opinion

Tara

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by dabrat76

Actually, while I know you weren't addressing ME, raw beef is also part of the raw diet for some dog owners and I do and have eaten raw or virtually raw beef. I used to eat raw hamburger as I kid (little bites till the parents caught on! lol), I've eaten steak tartar which is raw beef and I eat my steaks blue. So while I wouldn't eat raw chicken (not a big fan of it cooked though, either) raw beef is certainly consumed by millions of people in varying forms around the world. Just another opinion

I don't doubt people eat raw meat...I have friends who would eat it bleeding if given the option...I just question what health risks it presents.....

[dabrat76]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I don't doubt people eat raw meat...I have friends who would eat it bleeding if given the option...I just question what health risks it presents.....

I'm pretty much the same way - slaughter it, butcher it, sear it, slam it on my plate And while despite many vices, I'm still reasonably healthy despite eating raw meat. Though that post was meat to be a little teasing, not rude or nasty, I'm sorry if it came off that way

[MyFairLacy]

I just have a comment on bones for now: Carnivores (which include dogs) have a special tough lining in their stomach and duodenum (first part of the intestines). This tough lining is there because carnivores eat prey animals, including bones. So bones tearing the lining of the stomach or intestines isn't very likely, although I'm not saying it never happens. I've learned that anything can happen...but I feel raw bones are safe overall. Carnivores were designed to eat them.

About humans eating raw - as much as we love our dogs, dogs and humans are physically and physiologically different. Humans are omnivores - dogs are carnivores. Our digestive tracts are different in a lot of aspects. With any animal it is important to feed a species-appropriate diet

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by dabrat76

I used to eat raw hamburger as I kid (little bites till the parents caught on! lol),

LOL, Tara! You just reminded me that I used to do the SAME thing as a kid, ALL the time!

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by dabrat76

Though that post was meat to be a little teasing, not rude or nasty, I'm sorry if it came off that way

No offense taken... ...none meant in return.

[dabrat76]

None taken at all on this end either