Abbie we are jelous of you, our mummy can't find any chickie feet for us :(

But we did get big chunks of beef and eggs for breakfast :D

I honestly mean no disrespect...
 

I just posted a similar comment in another thread about raw. Believe me, I think to each his own, and am not on a mission. I know it may seem that way, lol. :) I believe I am just as likely to be wrong in this as right.

However, I researched raw a year or so ago, and have decided to stick with kibble. I discounted any and all research that was linked to a company who had a product to sell. I spoke with veternarians. (not just mine) The solid, long term information on feeding raw that I found was not enough to convince me. Actually, it scared me. I've had dogs all of my life. So far, I've been fortunate and they've all lived long healthy lives. They all ate kibble. Kirby is getting old and not doing so well, but he's 15, so that is to be expected. Shelby was 15 when she passed...I don't feel the need to switch my dogs to some other diet that is still being researched. Maybe after 20 years of long term study of the effects of raw.

I still remember a quote I read once, I apologize but I don't remember the source, and I'm definitely paraphrasing, as it's been some time.

"What scares me is that people think natural is better. Don't they realize that its natural for a certain percentage of the wolf population to die from salmonella?"

All I ask is that anyone considering this diet do lots of research before they start. Certainly talk to people who use it and who have used it for a long time. Talk to vets, google RAW and BARF. Ignore retailers claims that it's healthy (of course they are going to tell that). Make your own decision.

I wish you all the best and I truly hope that you have found the wonderful diet many believe it to be.

...similar to what I said in my other post: how about the gazillion years of canines eating raw meat before we forced them to eat kibble? That isn't long term?

see my previous reply. Also, wolves in the wild do die of salmonella. And humans ate all kinds of things for millions of years too...but our life expectancy is longer today that it was a thousand years or even 100 years ago.

Once again. I hope you are right.

I would love to see where that statement was sourced if you could find it for me ginger? I've never seen that and vast research would suggest otherwise. Salmonella is really human problem, not a dog one. Wolves live much longer than our dogs, they have been known to live over 30 years.

I have never even bothered to read any research from retailers, why would I, I feed prey model. I have however read many many books and scoured the internet for both research for and against. Spoken to vets that are for and against. I am a member of a few forums and am in touch with a vast amount of raw feeders. I did 8 months of research before switching my dogs, and I honestly believe that it was the best decision I have ever made for them.

Of course nothing in life is risk free, nothing at all, however I for one believe kibble is far far more risky than raw, kibble is the unknown, we really don't know what long term affect it will have on canines as it has not been around long enough. But currently, it doesn't seem that its having a good effect on the health of our pets at all. I don't know if you have ever seen supersize me but it reminds me an awful lot of that.

If a sales person turned round to you today and told you to start eating a new 'human kibble', would you forget everything you know about healthy balanced diets, empty your cupboards and start feeding it to yourself and your family? Thats what we did to our dogs.

Here's one guys opinion about food poisoning in wild animals: (link follows)

Wild animals do suffer from salmonellosis, toxoplasmosis, campylobacter and other illnesses. There have been documented cases in a number of species and there have been cases of human exposure after eating or contacting many species, including at least one case of salmonella food poisoning after eating a rattlesnake (it is in the list of references under Salmonella in the PubMed database but I can't remember the exact reference). I have treated wildlife for a number of years in association with WildCare, Inc. and have seen food poisoning on a number of occasions, some of them confirmed through lab testing or necropsy exam. People seem to believe that wild animals live a long and carefree existence and nothing could be further from the truth. They are heavily parasitized in many instances, suffer from nutritional deficiencies on a regular basis and often die very young. I do not know the specific reference but from memory I think the average lifespan of foxes studied in one study was 9 months. This is a far cry from the lifespan we expect from our pets.

http://www.vetinfo4dogs.com/drawmeat.html

Why are you repeating the same things in different threads?

I will repeat myself too,

I do not care that you feed kibble, thats fine. I don't go onto threads about kibble and tell people to feed raw, why are you doing this on a raw feeding thread?

Another mans opinion- http://rawfed.com/myths/

Anyone can make a website, which is why there are billions of them. I KNOW that my dogs do better on raw than they did on kibble, I see it with my own eyes. Thats the most important proof to me.

Hi Judy :)

These (almost) 10,000 people have nothing to sell. In fact, the admin will not allow advertisement of any kind on list. We share/learn about prey model feeding. These represent every walk of canine life: pets, show, breeders, service, agility. See, I am suspicious of opinions from most vets - as they DO have "a product to sell". Most push a particular brand of kibble. While the meat packing plants are surely happy with our decision to feed RAW, they aren't the ones pushing it. Dog owners - who have had experience with commercial - are the ones recommending RAW. Kibble has only been around in the last 50 years; but, having done your research, I'm sure you already know that. Prey model feeding has been around since our pups' ancestors, the wolf first came on the scene. I won't say this may not be so, even though I believe it to be highly unlikely, (as canines have the digestive systems to handle such nasties as salmonella); but we also know that many MANY dogs suffer long-term affects from kibble/canned commercial foods and over vaccination. .......:thumbup: :thumbup: I, personally, wouldn't bother with researching BARF, as it is not taylored to a canine's needs. That being protein without grains or carbs.Thanks :). And, thank-you for sincere concern for fellow YTers.

Hi! Abbie's MOM, :)

Love your informed responses. I will certainly check out that site. As I said, I started out looking into raw because I thought it would be a good thing. I certainly do not think kibble is the best thing in the world, but for now, its what Ive got.( I will not bore you all again with the lifespan and health of my dogs.):D Perhaps your site will persuade me otherwise, who knows??? If I saw definitive proof that raw was better, I'd switch in a millesecond. Nothing I have said here has been out of maliciousness. It all began because I was worried about a sick pup...then found myself responding to others. I even kept trying to move to the other thread to avoid destroying this girls cry for help for her baby who is sick.


Oops, I am on that "other thread". Now I'm all confused.
Judy

.........oops

LOL, perhap the confusion is spreading. I have requested an opportunity to join the yahoo group. In the 200 characters I was allowed, I tried to explain where I'm coming from (;) I'm not good at 200 characters or less)

I promise, my goal is not to persuade those who have already made their decision, I won't go on their and dispute raw. I will ask questions, I will think for myself. I believe we are all life-long learners.

I know I got a little carried away, defending my position. I just want to know that anyone considering any major change in their dog's diet looks into it on their own and comes to their own conclusion. We all have to live with the choices we make.

Hi Judy,

The "oops" above was a knee-jerk response from me, and I thought better. I will say that we (RAWfeeders) don't go into threads about kibble and tell folks they are poisoning their pets and if they loved them they would throw out every morsel of commercial "stuff" (even though we may feel that way...sincerely). We are not trying to convert anyone, here. Just inform/encourage those who are interested. Was the pup RAWfed, or kibble? I ask, because I can completely relate to your concern. It breaks my heart when I see thread after thread of "my pup won't eat...please, HELP!" I so want to go in and tell them to just try RAW. But, I don't, because I love this forum and won't see it turned into RAW vs Kibble. Feeding is just one part of the community here; and we ALL have our own opinions/experiences to contribute.

If you visit the group above, you will find many long-term prey model feeders. Long-term, being generations. Breeders, who are looking only to sell to other RAWfeeders, because they've seen the results and want the best for their pups.

Most wonderful that your dogs enjoy long, (supposedly) healthy lives! I am into my fifth year of feeding RAW, so I only have that to give personal testamony from. I will say that if Mo (or Abigail) died today and the vet told me it was from RAW, I would never go back to kibble for another pet. I was forced into RAW, because of my mix - Mozart. He was very ill on every kind of commercial we tried -including the script ones from the vets. He had tummy issues all his life; but it got really bad in his eighth year. Someone here, Wylie's mom(?) likened it to eating McDonald's your whole life and not being affected until later.

I don't recall how I heard about RAW - but, I stumbled on the egroup above, and made the switch. I won't bore you (or whomever else has heard this stor a gazillion times ;)) with allllll the details; but, suffice it to say he is in his thirteenth year. Five extra years I don't believe we'd have had with him if I'd continued with commercial. Visible benefits: he moves better in his thirteenth year than he did in his eighth. Vet can't get over his pearly white teeth. I don't have to clean his teeth with products that may later be found suspect. Didn't I read about a recall of PetsLife, recently? Abigail will be two next month, and seems to be thriving on RAW. Vets can't believe her teeth either - "for a Yorkie". LOL

Please, call me ada :)

I'm not concerned at all about anyone going on there and disputing RAW. The admins are wayyyy past that. They just won't allow it. As they say: "There are many sites on kibble - if you're not comfy here, go somewhere else". Sounds a bit close-minded perhaps; but, they have 'been there, done that', and now just want to concentrate on helping those who need support.

And, I do appreciate that "we all have to live with the choices we make". I believe most folks are discerning, and will not be easily swayed either way.

ada

But....what is it, exactly, you consider definitive proof? For a gazillion years, canines were fed real/raw food - is that definitive? For about 70 years, dogs have been fed kibble, is that definitive? I'm not trying to persuade you, but merely trying to understand the decision to feed...anything, for that matter - if you are persuaded, as stated, by definitive proof...? Bc as far as I know, there is no definitive proof that kibble is the way to go. I'm just more curious, at this point - regarding what someone would consider "definitive proof". Bc in the medical field, we consider peer-reviewed published clinical studies as quite definitive, but it is often anecdotal reasoning/thinking/stories that LEAD to these studies. Interesting conversation.

Btw, I did enjoy my kibble breakfast (cereal)! :D

Ack, I keep trying to stop, honest
 

Ada,

I respect that, and I do not feel that I came here telling people they were doing the wrong thing. I am certainly not trying to convince anyone to choose kibble. That is the decision that I made. If you read my initial post I was suggesting that each person research for themselves before they try it. Once again, I hope you all are found to be right...it'd make everyone's life a lot easier, we'd all love to feed our pets the best thing we can.

I thought this thread was started by someone seeking info/opinions on raw. If I misunderstood that, and what she was asking for was only positives, my bad.

I am not trying to convert those of you who have chosen raw or prey or even barf. I am not trying to convince others not to go raw. After I said I chose not to, some asked why. So I was sharing the kinds of things that concerned me.

RAW fed. That's what drew me to the subject today.

I truly am trying to be respectful here, but I'm a little offended by the scarcasm.

If you check my history I am not one of those yt trolls who go around stirring up trouble. I apologize that my differing opinion seems to have offended.

Quite frankly, I had no intention of ruffling any feathers, but my are a little mussed up.

Ann, definitive proof for me to switch to something that I'm so unsure of would be, exactly as you stated "peer reviewed published clinical studies". To my knowledge none exist. Also, again, I am not defending kibble as the best answer for the future of our pets. I hope that something better comes along. I just know, that in my own experience, my dogs have done fine on it. So, once I decided (for me and only for me) against raw, I researched how to select the best quality and that's what I've done. If I had grown up feeding my dogs RAW and they had always been fine, I'd have my experience with that. Since I didn't I'll need compelling evidence that it is the solution to the dog food dilemma we all face.

I applaud you all for caring enough about your animals to do what you think is best for them. I really do want to stop posting, but I feel I should answer all posts directed at me.

So many of my little posts go ignored....this did not start out as a crusade to defend my choice...just me adding my opinion.

For me, proof that kibble is not safe was the pet food recall, so many dogs dying. That could happen again at any time, any time. I prefer to take responsibility of my own dogs diet, not allow a commercial company to do it for me.

i switched to raw when all the recalls started happening. I didn't trust dog food and wanted to give my dog something that i could prepare at home. I looked into homecooking but there is so many things you need to do to make sure your dog is getting all the nutrients it needs and you have to supplement with a lot of things. Then i looked into raw and if done properly you do not need to supplement with anything. They get everything they need from raw meaty bones, organs, and whatnot. its much easier and better for them. I used to see people drop their dogs off for surgery and give me a hunk of frozen meat for their breakfast the next morning and i looked at them like they were crazy. But then i did my research and realized i was the crazy one. Most of those dogs coming in had great coats, teeth, and overall health. it was amazing.

This is a very informative thread!! I'm learning a lot here. I joined the raw feeding group on yahoo groups awhile back and they were very informative as well. Miko can't have raw because of his liver condition, but I was considering it for Emma. For now, I'll stick with homecooking for now, but I really like this thread.

I just wanted to say that a high protein diet/raw diet CAN worsen a liver condition. It can overwork the liver and cause it more damage over time. It also can bring out the symptoms like you said.

Hats off to you Yorkieluv, I was just going by what my vet said on that. Glad your finding this thread informative, do you think we get the record for longest thread in the diet section yet? :D

Judy, not 'your bad' at all. It certainly is the OPs prerogative as to what to allow/disallow in a discussion. I just happen to be here, too...answering questions, per the OPs initial post: I just finished reading that thread, and seems the OP is continuing w/the pre-made. I must say I suspect the ground flaxseed as being the culprit. JMO. Yes. I truly believe that, Judy. My comment toward your dogs' (supposed) health was uncalled for. Please accept my apologies. It's just hard for me (knowing what I do) to think of any kibble-fed dog as "healthy", so it came out. Again, I believe you are speaking out of concern for your community. I am sorry for my part of any feather ruffling. But, seeing as how you admit:Then, you should be able to appreciate our position when we get a tad intense about something for which we feel passionate.

My gracious. Of alllllllllll the things we discuss here, feeding sure is a tender subject!

I hear ya! When I first heard about raw, on the other forum i'm on, I thought they were insane. But they gave me the courage and support that I needed to try it and i've never looked back! :)

Ada,

Thank you for your understanding post.:) Sometime (perhaps through pm's or email, lol...I've taken up more space here than I meant to) you can share with me what you know. I'm always interested in learning more.

Judy

Oh, Indy and Malachi ~ you will wub, Wub, WUB chickie feets! We hafta find a way for your mum to get you some! I had more twipe (mixed w/gwound turkey). Dis was a rare tweet, as mom doesn't usuawy feed twipe two days. She also doesn't usuawy feed gwound meat; but, is thinking dat will be a way to get turkey in me. She's wight! <hehehe...shhhh....don't tell ;) > I would eat just about anyfing mixed w/gween twipe! Oh! Hope she doesn't figure dat out and give it in <gack!:sickie:> wibber....:eek: I will let you know.

:wub: abigail

Don't forget Benjamin, Abbie! :p

We feel so deprived that we don't get chickie feet :(

Oh well its not so bad,we spotted mummy getting ox heart out for breakfast, yay, we WUB that! :D

Our mummy does dat trick on us to, dats how she gets us to eat kidney! Dat is out absolute worstest meal, kidney YUCK ewwwwwwwww. We had turkey wings for dinner last night, oh my dey were HUGE, like giant chickie wings, mummy would not let us have a whole one each, we had to share, not fair! :mad:
Wub,

Indy, Benjamin and Malachi :animal36

I saw on a link posted in the thread in the general section that chicken feet are a good natural source for glucosamine and chondroiton. I didn't know that. Lacy has LP and I used to give her a supplement but Petsmart was out of the supplement I was giving her the past few times I've been there (and all the other supplements they have were much more expensive and for bigger dogs). I have to admit that chicken feet kindof wierd me out a little..LOL I wonder where in the world I could get some though??? I can't even find fresh tripe around here that I know of

I've been feeding chicken feet for at least three years. That was one thing I thought I'd never - ever - in a million years feed my dogs! They still weird me out! LOL But, I know they are a natural source for glucosamine and chondroiton, so I do it. My Mo still has some bad days w/arthritis, especially in wet cold weather; but, nothing like when he was eight. Before we switched to RAW, he was dragging his left(?) hindquarter.

I am so blessed to have a natural a petfood store just down the road. She carries chicken feet and green tripe. You might have to order green tripe. Here is a site, but I can't vouche for the quality, as I don't use them.

ada

Ohhh, nooooooooo! How could I fo'get Benjamin! Pweeze, oh pweeze fo'gib me, Benjamin!

:hug: abigail

Haha!! I think it is the longest diet thread yet :) I did research it but never took the plunge. I think Emma would probably do well on it, but it's really a big step to take. She's doing very well on homecooked so far. There's so much to feeding raw, but it sounds like once you get the hang of it, it's easy! I think I've asked this before, but do you wash their paws and faces and the front of their bodies after they eat so that they don't spread bacteria around the house? Do they give you kisses still?

oh my.... i went looking for chicken feet one day and boy did i find some. i went to the local grocery store and asked if they had chicken necks, backs, feet, blah blah blah and he said sure and threw a whole package of chicken feet down in front of me. I nearly threw up. LOL i don't know what i was thinking but fresh chicken feet are GROSS!!!!!!! especially when they come in packages of 30. needless to say i didn't buy them and left the store :rolleyes: i think i need to start out with only a few feet, not 30. *shudders*