Help! please

[CaspersPrincess]

Hi Everyone,

I haven't posted in a while, things have been crazy we moved and been really busy. Empanada is now 8yrs old and weighs 8lbs. I hope someone has gone thought what Empanada and I are now going though. I don't know what to do. Monday he was playing on the bed, he dropped his puppy and jumped off to get it. When he jumped he hit his stairs that go to bed. It was so sad he screamed I ran in and he was limping. I took him to the vet Monday night because I was worried he broke his leg or something worse. They didn't do much except pull on his leg made him scream again gave him Rimadyl and told me to come back on Wednesday they would do x-rays. Last night I took him back and he has torn ACL (back of my mind I was thinking they might have hurt him more Monday when they pulled it) I found out last year he has a luxating patella but they said it was nothing to worry about because it wasn't that bad. His vet is saying he needs ACL surgery it will cost about 2,500.00 but then he said that it would probably heal on its own but then listed off everything that could go wrong later on, so now I dont know what to do. I'm wondering if it does heal on its own how does that affect the luxating patella or can the acl even get better without surgery? I have talked to another vet they said they dont normally do surgery on small dogs because almost 99% heal without surgery. I have carried him around for the last 3 days so he doesn't get tired he only goes outside to the bathroom then hes back in his bed (on the floor) or in my arms. They gave him Tramadol yesterday along with the Rimadyl so he seems to be doing better he never really showed he was in pain except right when it happened. I can tell the meds are helping because today I walked in an he was trying to "play" with his stuffed puppy. So ok after all this, questions is what do I do? I have one vet I really feel is out for $ because they were trying to make me give him liquid meds and I told them he wont take it he likes pills, they kinda got mad and was like fine. I didn't know at the time but price difference was 10.00 for pills and 100.00 for liquid, I think that's why they were mad because they just want $.We are looking for a new vet we will never take him back there again. The other vet says he would be ok without surgery. Sorry for rambling I just want help if anyone has been though this how did it go? Did you do surgery or wait it out. Thanks for listening I'm going crazy here.

[Buster Brown]

Hi I would take him for an evaluation to an Orthopedic Vet. That way you are going to a Vet who deals specifically with these type of injuries. Here is a list for Board certified Orthopedic vets.ACVS - Find a Surgeon I don't know which area of CA you are in. I am in the Los Angeles area and I went to Dr Scott Anderson for Buster's LP surgery and he and his staff were wonderful. Injuries can be very painful and if the dog is not kept quiet the leg may not heal correctly. I really really recommend a consult with an Orthopedic surgeon. Also be careful about Rimadyl
What are the Rimadyl side effects in Dogs? | What are the Rimadyl Side Effects?
The Senior Dogs Project
Best wishes to you and your Empanada (love the name and the food!)

[ladyjane]

I would never let a dog go with a torn CCL because it is painful and arthritis begins very quickly. It also puts them at a higher risk for tearing the one in the other leg.

Here is a link that might help you make a decision:

Yorkie Haven Rescue - Cranial Cruciate Ligament Tear Info

Also, I would not have anyone do that surgery but a board certiified surgeon. You can find one at
American College of Veterinary Surgeons

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Yorkiedaze]

If your within a 100 mile raidus of Ventura, I very highly recommend Dr. Bruecker. He owns the hospital. He has operated on two of my girls for LP and for ACL. Here is some information: Veterinary Medical And Surgical Group (VMSG) | Veterinarian, Veterinary Emergency, Animal Hospital, Pet Surgery, Vet Surgeons, TPLO

[bobohyde]

My Columbo had exactly the same thing as your pup. He is now 9. Last April (8.5 yrs old), he had a "catastrophic" event just like yours. He jumped down off the sofa and couldn't walk. We found out he had luxating patella, but also had torn his ACL. His vet said he could do the surgery or he could refer us to an orthopedic surgeon, which is where he went. What I learned is if a dog has a torn ACL, sometimes they don't need surgery, but if they also have LP, it will never heal. If you give him a few days, you will see an improvement, but then it will level off and he will always limp and be impared. There is not much pain after the injury, unless you mess with his leg, then it hurts him, but he will not get better without the surgery. Columbo had the surgery and recovered very quickly. 4 months later the identical injury happened in the other knee (this is very common), so this time we just went straight to the surgeon and saved the regular vet visit costs. The second leg took a little longer to completely heal, but he is now 110% percent in both knees. I hope my dog will live a long life and we want him to have a good quality of life. The LP is really the cause of the ACL tear. Because the knee cap pops out of place, it put the legs in a position that over time and with age, finally causes the ACL to tear. I'm pretty sure yours is also a complete tear (the catastrophic event), which means it will not heal on its own. If its not a complete tear, he may get better, but eventually it will completely tear. Columbo had limped for no reason a couple times prior to the tear, but then was fine the next day. When your dog yelped, that's when the tear happened. And because of the LP, it can never heal. I definitely recommend you get a consult with a board certified surgeon. Our surgeon has done thousands of this surgery and I attribute that to Columbo's easy recovery. My regular vet had only done about 15 of these and although he was a little more expensive, we chose the surgeon. Our vet even said he used the surgeon for his own dogs. They say you always want the heart surgeon that operates on the most people, well this is no different. Although it was expensive and hard to swallow the cost, I do not regret a penny of it, especially as I see Columbo 8 months later (4 months from the second leg) and he is so happy and completely back to normal. If you have any questions about anything let me know. I am happy to answer any questions since we've been through it twice now. I do not agree with your vet saying that usually small dogs don't have this surgery and heal on their own. The surgery is necessary, however, it won't hurt him if you had to wait a couple weeks. Just don't wait too long as arthritis will set in.

[CaspersPrincess]

Thanks everyone for the info. I made an appointment for Monday to meet with a surgeon and schedule Empanada. Now I'm worried about after surgery. He has never been in a crate. Right now he just walks around the house no stairs, jumping or anything like that and he sleeps in his bed on the floor. Do I have to crate him or would he be ok if I just hide all his toys doesn't want to play? Also, I'm not really sure how the walks for bathroom break works. I have pee pee pads out because I'm scared to take him outside I don't want him to hurt himself and I'm not sure how long to walk him for. Our normal walks can be up to a hour a few times a day so he is used to long walks and loves them. I did take him outside for about 3 minutes today to check the mail then carried him back he was not happy but I didn't know how long was to long walk. So I'm already this scared before surgery. How am I going to survive after surgery? Anyone that can help would be great.

[Buster Brown]

Originally Posted by CaspersPrincess

Thanks everyone for the info. I made an appointment for Monday to meet with a surgeon and schedule Empanada. Now I'm worried about after surgery. He has never been in a crate. Right now he just walks around the house no stairs, jumping or anything like that and he sleeps in his bed on the floor. Do I have to crate him or would he be ok if I just hide all his toys doesn't want to play? Also, I'm not really sure how the walks for bathroom break works. I have pee pee pads out because I'm scared to take him outside I don't want him to hurt himself and I'm not sure how long to walk him for. Our normal walks can be up to a hour a few times a day so he is used to long walks and loves them. I did take him outside for about 3 minutes today to check the mail then carried him back he was not happy but I didn't know how long was to long walk. So I'm already this scared before surgery. How am I going to survive after surgery? Anyone that can help would be great.

You must make sure to crate them after the surgery. They can go to the bathroom but I carried Buster to the pee pad and stayed by him to support him he first few days. He should not walk unless to pee in the beginning. Buster stayed in his crate in a small xpen and was only allowed a small area to move around in. No free run of the house or outside for 8 weeks and he only had to have his LP repaired. Your babies knee is more damaged because of the ACL. It will be difficult Buster wanted to run after a few days but I knew I had to keep him contained or he could damage the surgical repair. Some people even get pet strollers so that the dog can go outside but is still contained. Your baby will be frustrated but it is for their own good to be kept quiet. Sending prayers and best wishes for a successful surgery and a smooth recovery. Hugs to you it is always scary before surgery but you will be fine.

[bobohyde]

Columbo had his surgery first thing in the morning and the surgeon kept him overnight and released him back to me the next afternoon. They want to make sure he is stable after they take him off the intraveneous meds. They will give you specific instructions to follow for his meds. Columbo was on three different ones: an anti-inflammatory, a pain med and an antibiotic. The first two weeks, they want him confined to a small room or xpen when he is not supervised. Columbo was always supervised, so I didn't confine him. His bed is in on the carpet, so I moved his food & water bowl over to the carpet to keep him off the non-carpeted area so he wouldn't slip and fall. Then as his recovery progresses, I put down some throw rugs in the kitchen for him to get around, and he definitely did not venture off them. He knew his limitations and that he might slip on the hard floor. After returning home from surgery, short leash walks for potty only. I carried him out and set him in the grass and he 3-leg hopped to do him business, then carried back inside to the carpet or his bed. The first week, Columbo walked on 3 legs. After 5-7 days, he started "toe tapping" - attempting to use the leg a little bit. Then it progresses from there as he gets stronger. Weeks 2-6, the surgeon wanted short 5 minute leash walks 2 or 3 times a day, increased by 5 minutes each week. No off leash or explosive behavior allowed. He is allowed to get up and around inside as he feels up to it. The surgeon will do rechecks at around 6 and 12 weeks with xrays or when needed, and revise his activity schedule based on progress. The first couple days home, he will sleep a lot, then venture out of his bed from there. The biggest thing is don't overdo it and NO EXPLOSIVE BEHAVIOR. We removed Columbo's access to the window where he sits and watches squirrels as he tends to go ape$hit when there is a lot of squirrel activity outside. Our kids aren't home anymore, so our house is quiet. If your house is more active, you might have to restrict him with a baby gate or an xpen to insure no reinjury during the first few weeks or to protect him from kids playing, etc. Also, even when he acts like he's all better, don't overdo it until the surgeon gives the all clear. It is normal to have a setback or two. Columbo had his first surgery around May 1 and his second one around Sept. 1. He now has no sign of a limp, but it takes several months to get there. Although he has been cleared for back to normal activities, he will jump up a couple carpeted steps, but no non-carpeted steps. We always pick him up for anything we think might be a strain or a re-injury even though the vet says we don't have to. I guess I just don't want another surgery or vet bill . We have definitely noticed in the last month, however, that he must be feeling stronger because he wants to jump up on his ottoman by himself to watch the squirrels again. Our surgeon included everything in the one fee: all rechecks, xrays, etc. If I had any questions along the way, they wanted me to call and ask. There are many different ways to perform this surgery. Originally, they planned to redo his knee using a state of the art procedure involving titanium plates. It turned out the tiniest plates were too big for him (Columbo was 8 lbs then), so they did a more traditional, much used method. This is why an experienced surgeon is necessary. They've done so many, they can adapt to the circumstances in the OR. Anyway, the ACL is re-manufactured using a surgical grade monofilament, which is a basically a strong fishing line. Over the next few month, scar tissue builds up around the monofilament and creates a new, strong ACL. When the bone from the LP repair is healed and the new ACL is strong, (3-4 months) the surgeon will say he can resume normal activity again. Columbo's first leg was a breaze. His second leg had couple set backs from overdoing it too early, but he got right back on track. The main thing is you don't want to have that monofilament tear away before the new tissue around it is strong and healed or it's back to surgery, hence why you must limit his explosive behavior and follow all the surgeons instructions.

[Buster Brown]

Great informative answer

p.s. Love the Colombo / Bobohyde

[CaspersPrincess]

Originally Posted by bobohyde

Columbo had his surgery first thing in the morning and the surgeon kept him overnight and released him back to me the next afternoon. They want to make sure he is stable after they take him off the intraveneous meds. They will give you specific instructions to follow for his meds. Columbo was on three different ones: an anti-inflammatory, a pain med and an antibiotic. The first two weeks, they want him confined to a small room or xpen when he is not supervised. Columbo was always supervised, so I didn't confine him. His bed is in on the carpet, so I moved his food & water bowl over to the carpet to keep him off the non-carpeted area so he wouldn't slip and fall. Then as his recovery progresses, I put down some throw rugs in the kitchen for him to get around, and he definitely did not venture off them. He knew his limitations and that he might slip on the hard floor. After returning home from surgery, short leash walks for potty only. I carried him out and set him in the grass and he 3-leg hopped to do him business, then carried back inside to the carpet or his bed. The first week, Columbo walked on 3 legs. After 5-7 days, he started "toe tapping" - attempting to use the leg a little bit. Then it progresses from there as he gets stronger. Weeks 2-6, the surgeon wanted short 5 minute leash walks 2 or 3 times a day, increased by 5 minutes each week. No off leash or explosive behavior allowed. He is allowed to get up and around inside as he feels up to it. The surgeon will do rechecks at around 6 and 12 weeks with xrays or when needed, and revise his activity schedule based on progress. The first couple days home, he will sleep a lot, then venture out of his bed from there. The biggest thing is don't overdo it and NO EXPLOSIVE BEHAVIOR. We removed Columbo's access to the window where he sits and watches squirrels as he tends to go ape when there is a lot of squirrel activity outside. Our kids aren't home anymore, so our house is quiet. If your house is more active, you might have to restrict him with a baby gate or an xpen to insure no reinjury during the first few weeks or to protect him from kids playing, etc. Also, even when he acts like he's all better, don't overdo it until the surgeon gives the all clear. It is normal to have a setback or two. Columbo had his first surgery around May 1 and his second one around Sept. 1. He now has no sign of a limp, but it takes several months to get there. Although he has been cleared for back to normal activities, he will jump up a couple carpeted steps, but no non-carpeted steps. We always pick him up for anything we think might be a strain or a re-injury even though the vet says we don't have to. I guess I just don't want another surgery or vet bill . We have definitely noticed in the last month, however, that he must be feeling stronger because he wants to jump up on his ottoman by himself to watch the squirrels again. Our surgeon included everything in the one fee: all rechecks, xrays, etc. If I had any questions along the way, they wanted me to call and ask. There are many different ways to perform this surgery. Originally, they planned to redo his knee using a state of the art procedure involving titanium plates. It turned out the tiniest plates were too big for him (Columbo was 8 lbs then), so they did a more traditional, much used method. This is why an experienced surgeon is necessary. They've done so many, they can adapt to the circumstances in the OR. Anyway, the ACL is re-manufactured using a surgical grade monofilament, which is a basically a strong fishing line. Over the next few month, scar tissue builds up around the monofilament and creates a new, strong ACL. When the bone from the LP repair is healed and the new ACL is strong, (3-4 months) the surgeon will say he can resume normal activity again. Columbo's first leg was a breaze. His second leg had couple set backs from overdoing it too early, but he got right back on track. The main thing is you don't want to have that monofilament tear away before the new tissue around it is strong and healed or it's back to surgery, hence why you must limit his explosive behavior and follow all the surgeons instructions.

Thanks for all the info it really helps alot. I was thinking about getting this sling to carry him around. Do you think it would hurt his leg more?

[Buster Brown]

Originally Posted by CaspersPrincess

Thanks for all the info it really helps alot. I was thinking about getting this sling to carry him around. Do you think it would hurt his leg more?

When I carried Buster around after the LP I slide my arm through his legs from tail to chest and supported him with the other and let his legs hang loose. I am not sure but with the sling if the leg is compressed in an unnatural position it might put strain on the knee. Not sure just thinking and typing as I went through knee problems myself. If that's not an issue I know they like to be near us. You do have to be careful with the slings when you bend or lean as the weight shift can cause the to fall out. I always keep a bracing hand on Buster when he is in his one.

[bobohyde]

I don't know, it would depend on if the sling put any pressure on the knee or bent the leg, or put it in a position that's not good for it while it heals. When he starts walking again, the surgeon only wants them to walk a straight forward motion, no sideways motions until he's cleared for normal activity. Sideways could potentially tear the monofilament before it heals. It also hurt Columbo to bend his knee at first. That came slowly as he got stronger (walking, exercises). I'd ask the surgeon his opinion about the sling. Also, Buster Brown is correct about the worry of him falling out. A fall during the healing process probably wouldn't be a good thing. It's a cute sling, though.

[bobohyde]

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Great informative answer

p.s. Love the Colombo / Bobohyde

Thanks. Columbo is a little weirdo, but I guess that's why he fits in so well in our family! Buster has the cutest, sweetest little face! I actually copied Buster's haircut on Columbo's head and I love it! I need to update Columbo's photo.

[ladyjane]

You might want to get a stroller for him so that you could take him around with you. I don't think a sling would really work...might put his leg in an odd position and also it could be uncomfortable for him.

[CaspersPrincess]

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

When I carried Buster around after the LP I slide my arm through his legs from tail to chest and supported him with the other and let his legs hang loose. I am not sure but with the sling if the leg is compressed in an unnatural position it might put strain on the knee. Not sure just thinking and typing as I went through knee problems myself. If that's not an issue I know they like to be near us. You do have to be careful with the slings when you bend or lean as the weight shift can cause the to fall out. I always keep a bracing hand on Buster when he is in his one.

Oh you are right I didn't think about that. What about something like this? Of course I would still hold him not let him hang from strap, but this way he can be around the house with me he really has separation issues. Also, I have one more question. Right now he is on tramadol and rimadyl while I schedule his surgery. Its getting harder and harder to make him eat. I have cooked everything I have chicken, rice, steak, hot dogs everything he usually loves but he wont eat any of it. He isnt drinking much water either. I called his vet and they didn't seem to worried but how am I supposed to give him rimadyl when he wont eat?