Jackson's not feeling well. :(

[Britster]

Hmmm... interesting. I guess we shall see what he ends up with tomorrow *fingers crossed*

Just out of curiosity, boredom, and lots of reading, lol... I am looking at these foods:

Pet Products - Healthy Dog Food, Natural Cat Food, Gourmet Dog Biscuits ? Innova Holistic Pet Food
This one looks good and I like how they put a min and a max fat level. And the ingredient list isn't super long and pretty simple.

Eliminate Pet Food Allergies – Hypoallergenic Dog Food & Cat Food – California Natural Pet Food

Eliminate Pet Food Allergies – Hypoallergenic Dog Food & Cat Food – California Natural Pet Food

Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Original Ultra Reduced Calorie Formula for Dogs

[BonBon]

This may be a little higher in fat than you're looking for (11%), but I like this company. Fromm Family Foods - Four-Star Whitefish & Potato Holistic Entree

Does Jackson like foods with fish?

[Britster]

Originally Posted by BonBon

This may be a little higher in fat than you're looking for (11%), but I like this company. Fromm Family Foods - Four-Star Whitefish & Potato Holistic Entree

Does Jackson like foods with fish?

Unfortunately, nope.
He's never touched any kind of food w/ fish.

[Britster]

I found these last night and found them to be extremely helpful.

Healthy Low-Fat Diets For Dogs With Special Dietary Needs - Whole Dog Journal Article

Canine Pancreatitis - Whole Dog Journal Article

[BonBon]

Originally Posted by Britster

I found these last night and found them to be extremely helpful.

Healthy Low-Fat Diets For Dogs With Special Dietary Needs - Whole Dog Journal Article

Canine Pancreatitis - Whole Dog Journal Article

I thought this paragraph, from your first link, was VERY interesting.

"Most senior and light diets are relatively low in fat, but look for those that are not also low in protein. Low-protein diets should be avoided, as they can increase the risk of both hyperlipidemia and pancreatitis. Diets that are low in both protein and fat are mostly carbohydrates. Dogs get more nutritional value from protein than from carbohydrates, so it’s better to feed a diet that is higher in protein and therefore lower in carbohydrates. You can increase the amount of protein in the diet by adding high-protein, low-fat fresh foods, if needed. Moderate amounts of protein (up to 30 percent on a dry matter basis, or 23 percent of calories) are recommended for dogs recovering from acute pancreatitis."

And your second link says "Low-protein diets have also been shown to predispose dogs to pancreatitis, especially when combined with high fat intake."

[BonBon]

Originally Posted by Britster

Unfortunately, nope.
He's never touched any kind of food w/ fish.

I was pretty sure he didn't like fish.

[Ellie May]

Anybody know who the author of WDJ is?

I wouldn't say feed Jackson a very low protein diet (i.e. 15%). But I also wouldn't say feed a high protein diet (i.e. 31+%). The % that he needs is best decided on by his vet or veterinary nutritionist. A level of 20-25% is considered pretty standard and I don't see that causing an issue.

I'm not sure where their reference is for very restricted protein foods causing pancreatitis, but 20-25%ish is fairly moderate. Ellie has been on 24 and 28% when eating homecooked.

Also, the amino acid profile and the % phosphorus could come into play as well as the digestibility of the ingredients and how those ingredients work together.

I wouldn't feed a dog prone to pancreatitis any dairy unless okay'ed by a vet. I also wouldn't do most fruit, etc.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by BonBon

I thought this paragraph, from your first link, was VERY interesting.

"Most senior and light diets are relatively low in fat, but look for those that are not also low in protein. Low-protein diets should be avoided, as they can increase the risk of both hyperlipidemia and pancreatitis. Diets that are low in both protein and fat are mostly carbohydrates. Dogs get more nutritional value from protein than from carbohydrates, so it’s better to feed a diet that is higher in protein and therefore lower in carbohydrates. You can increase the amount of protein in the diet by adding high-protein, low-fat fresh foods, if needed. Moderate amounts of protein (up to 30 percent on a dry matter basis, or 23 percent of calories) are recommended for dogs recovering from acute pancreatitis."

And your second link says "Low-protein diets have also been shown to predispose dogs to pancreatitis, especially when combined with high fat intake."

I, too, found this very interesting. I thought both articles were pretty informative, straight to the point, and seemed to make a lot of sense to me. They did not ever give a complete straight answer but moreso gave a lot of information, etc on pancreatitis and basically left it that each dog is different, etc.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Anybody know who the author of WDJ is?

I wouldn't say feed Jackson a very low protein diet (i.e. 15%). But I also wouldn't say feed a high protein diet (i.e. 31+%). The % that he needs is best decided on by his vet or veterinary nutritionist. A level of 20-25% is considered pretty standard and I don't see that causing an issue.

I'm not sure where their reference is for very restricted protein foods causing pancreatitis, but 20-25%ish is fairly moderate. Ellie has been on 24 and 28% when eating homecooked.

Also, the amino acid profile and the % phosphorus could come into play as well as the digestibility of the ingredients and how those ingredients work together.

I wouldn't feed a dog prone to pancreatitis any dairy unless okay'ed by a vet. I also wouldn't do most fruit, etc.

I see the author to both articles was Mary Straus. But have not yet looked to see her credentials or who runs the site. I've just always read about it being such a respectable site and such.

I feel like you, though. I will certainly not be going over 25% protein for me to be comfortable with it. And fat levels I am looking at will most likely stay under 10%. I'd just prefer to stay on the precautious side.

[Ellie May]

Here is one of the bladder foods that they believe triggers pancreatitis. Look at the fat content - 26%. It's not all in the low protein. Actually, this is the first I've heard of it. And 13.3% would never be given to a healthy dog. The lowest that can go on the store shelves is like 18%.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Here is one of the bladder foods that they believe triggers pancreatitis. Look at the fat content - 26%. It's not all in the low protein. Actually, this is the first I've heard of it. And 13.3% would never be given to a healthy dog. The lowest that can go on the store shelves is like 18%.

?? I don't see anything.

Are you talking about 13.3% protein or fat?

[Ellie May]

That's bc I forgot to paste the link.
u/d® Canine Non-Struvite Urinary Tract Health - Canned

It's 13.3% protein which wouldn't be recommended for a healthy dog and the fat is 26%. So they are saying based on the fact that dogs on this sort of food get pancreatitis, it must be the low protein, but these foods tend to be higher in fat.

[ArmaniMan]

Originally Posted by Britster

Hmmm... interesting. I guess we shall see what he ends up with tomorrow *fingers crossed*

Just out of curiosity, boredom, and lots of reading, lol... I am looking at these foods:

Pet Products - Healthy Dog Food, Natural Cat Food, Gourmet Dog Biscuits ? Innova Holistic Pet Food
This one looks good and I like how they put a min and a max fat level. And the ingredient list isn't super long and pretty simple.

Eliminate Pet Food Allergies – Hypoallergenic Dog Food & Cat Food – California Natural Pet Food

Eliminate Pet Food Allergies – Hypoallergenic Dog Food & Cat Food – California Natural Pet Food

Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Original Ultra Reduced Calorie Formula for Dogs

I can't speak to how good any food is for a pancreatitis dog since I have never dealt with it- but as far as the companies- just remember California Natural is a Natura brand food- I have always had good results with Natural Balance foods (although I always use the LID ones) and I really like the company.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

That's bc I forgot to paste the link.
u/d® Canine Non-Struvite Urinary Tract Health - Canned

It's 13.3% protein which wouldn't be recommended for a healthy dog and the fat is 26%. So they are saying based on the fact that dogs on this sort of food get pancreatitis, it must be the low protein, but these foods tend to be higher in fat.

Another food used for dissolution of stones that is even worse in terms of low protein and high fat is the Hill's S/D diet. I refused to use this food for Teddy when he had struvites, which I was later told was a smart move and was provided another product to do the the same thing as that diet w/o the fat.

I believe that these are the types of food to which the author is referring and these foods would never be used in a pancreatitis dog. My own dog is on moderate protein (23%) and very low fat (3%). I was worried about very low fat, but in the 17 months since he had pancreatitis, his coat is shiny and thick and his skin is supple and not dry, but even if it was, I would not care because I'd rather have him here with me for many more years than to have him look like a fashion plate.

By the way, the author of those WDJ articles is a layperson and not a vet (see, DogAware.com: About DogAware.com). I have read WDJ for years, I enjoy the articles but I would not want to listen to Mary's advice for my sick dogs.

[TxVicki]

Not giving advice, but I know my late Molly who had Chronic Pancreatitis and IBD did wonderful on the Natural Balance Reduced Calorie Diet. We went thru several different foods and this one agreed with her the best.

Prayers and well wishes still going out for Jackson.

[Ellie May]

"Protein
Free amino acids (i.e. phenylalanine, tryptophan, and valine) in the duodenum are a strong stimulus for pancreatic secretion, in fact, more so than fat. 49 Therefore, excess dietary protein should be avoided, while providing adequate protein for recovery and tissue repair. Protein levels (DMB) of 15 to 30% for dogs and 30 to 45% for cats are appropriate."

49 Go VLW. Hofmann AF, Summerskill WFJ. Pancreozymin assay in man based on pancreatic enzyme secretion. Potency of specific amino acids and other digestive products. Journal of Clinical Investigation 1970; 49: 1558-1564.

"Feeding a high-fat (>20% DMB) food, treat or table food has often been associated with the onset of acute pancreatitis. Experimentally, feeding high-fat, low-protein foods was associated with the development of pancreatitis and hepatic lipidosis changes in dogs. 43, 44"

43 Lindsay S, Entenman C, Chaikoff IL. Pancreatitis accompanying hepatic disease in dogs fed a high fat, low protein diet. Archives of Pathology 1948; 45: 635-638.

44 Goodhead B. Importance of nutrition in the pathogenesis of experimental pancreatitis in the dog. Archives of Surgery 1971; 103: 724-728.

And a note from the chapter about digestibility:
"Carbohydrates make up the largest nonwater fraction of foods formulated for managing GI diseases. Carbohydrate digestibility of pet foods is influenced by source and processing. Dogs digest most properly cooked starches very well, including starch components in corn, rice, barley, and wheat. Other starches, including potato and tapioca, are less digestible, particularly when inadequately cooked."

All taken from:
Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Edition
Hand, Thatcher, Remillard, Roudebush

Hope this helps some.
The second excerpt is just showing where the WDJ got some info from about low protein diets triggering pancreatitis. Those diets appear to have also been high in fat...

The last one is just something about digestibility. I have NO IDEA what ingredients Jackson will do best on. He may do fine on everything that is low fat. That'd be great. But it's just an example of what your vet might be talking about when expressing concern over ingredient found in tons of the newer holistic food. I also have no idea if he will need a highly digestible food. Maybe not. But your vet may feel the major brands are more digestible because most include grain. Sooo, all that to say that may be what your vet meant by ingredient differences.