Help!!!

[Lucyana1129]

Originally Posted by kjc

I agree. It's a shame though that she didn't see that the vaccine contained Coronavirus which he didn't need in the first place, and would eliminate alot of this uncertainty to begin with. So now we have a pup, who may or may not have sufficient immunity against these nasty diseases, and to try to keep him safe will in turn be risking his life, either way.

When I take my pups in for vaccines... I read the labels, or they don't get them. The techs are responsible for pulling and preping the vaccs for each visit. The vet looks at them , at which point I interupt and say, 'Can I see that? I really do not want my pups to get Corona, Lepto, or Lymes. Just DHPP now, and I'll come back in a month for the Rabies.' and then she administers them to the pups. I will walk out of the office and find a new vet if I am ever denied being allowed to double check the vaccines, with my own eyes.

I agree weith checking. I feel so terrible for not looking. I just graduated from school to become a tech and I knew better. I blame myself completly. When he was given bordetella I told them I wanted it given nasally not the injectible (because nasal is safer in my opinion). So why it slipped my mind to look to see what exactly they were giving Ill never know. That was his 3rd set however. At 12 weeks. So I am pretty confident that he is properly protected, but I may go get the titer just to be on the safe side. As for rabies, well I will be scared to have him get it. Not too sure what to do there. At my externship the worst reaction I ever saw to vaccines was swelling which wasnt that bad at all and was easily foxed with benedryl. I feel so stupid for not checking the label first. When it comes to my own animals its like all schooling goes out the window and I just trust my vet where with other people's pets I am nothing like that. Sounds dumb I know and I need to get over it.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by Lucyana1129

I agree weith checking. I feel so terrible for not looking. I just graduated from school to become a tech and I knew better. I blame myself completly. When he was given bordetella I told them I wanted it given nasally not the injectible (because nasal is safer in my opinion). So why it slipped my mind to look to see what exactly they were giving Ill never know. That was his 3rd set however. At 12 weeks. So I am pretty confident that he is properly protected, but I may go get the titer just to be on the safe side. As for rabies, well I will be scared to have him get it. Not too sure what to do there. At my externship the worst reaction I ever saw to vaccines was swelling which wasnt that bad at all and was easily foxed with benedryl. I feel so stupid for not checking the label first. When it comes to my own animals its like all schooling goes out the window and I just trust my vet where with other people's pets I am nothing like that. Sounds dumb I know and I need to get over it.

Oh don't feel bad... if you tell them at the desk what you want when you make the appt, you shouldn't have to keep repeating yourself.... And with you being a professional... it's natural to trust other professionals. And the emotions can get to one also.

Ha! How do you think I came up with that personal rule? I made the same mistake of not looking... more than once. It happens... then you learn. I usually make a list when I take mine in... that way I can pay more attention to my pets and what the vet is doing and saying, instead of standing there trying not to forget the things I want checked out.

One time, the tech had a DHLPP ready to go... thank God I checked that day. She said they were all out of the DHPP. I said that's fine, when are you getting more in, I'll come back. She was totally shocked. But I didn't care... my baby wasn't getting that vaccine!

It's really the vet's responsibility to check things out. They should check the chart against what's on the table , verify the correct pet all before giving any injection.

You may want to email Dr Dodds. She's the vaccine guru and may be able to make suggestions on what can or can not be done.

And ask your vet for a script for an Epi-pen to carry with your dog at all times. After an allergic reaction to a vaccine, he may be more prone to having another, like if he get's stung by a bee or something.

And remember too that's why we're here to help... we've all made mistakes or overlooked things... and now we can try to warn people before it happens to them. And now that you have first hand experience, you'll be able to share your story and educate others!

Welcome to YT!

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by Lucyana1129

She did give him benedryl to come home with. And they gave him SQ fluids and oxygen. They worked fast to fix the problem and I am grateful. However, I called the breeder and she was very upset. She said he shouldnt have been given his next set for another week or so and that they could have killed him. I dont know the exact cause of the problem. I just know that I am thanking god he is okay now. I am a little wary of any more vaccines though. With good reason I think. But like I said, right now I am just SO thankful that he is okay.

I'm a little surprised your breeder blames the vet. She's the one who started the vaccine cycle way too early. But in any case, even delaying a week wouldn't have made a difference in today's events. The reaction would have happened next week as well.

And I need to second KJC's recommendation that you ask your vet for an epi-pen.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Lucyana1129

That was his 3rd set however. At 12 weeks. So I am pretty confident that he is properly protected, but I may go get the titer just to be on the safe side.

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

I'm a little surprised your breeder blames the vet. She's the one who started the vaccine cycle way too early. But in any case, even delaying a week wouldn't have made a difference in today's events. The reaction would have happened next week as well.

And I need to second KJC's recommendation that you ask your vet for an epi-pen.

At twelve weeks, he probably isn't fully protected:

In one study of a cross section of different puppies the age at which they were able to respond to a vaccine and develop protection covered a wide period of time. At six weeks of age, 25% of the puppies could be immunized. At 9 weeks of age, 40% of the puppies were able to respond to the vaccine. The number increased to 60% by 16 weeks, and by 18 weeks of age, 95% of the puppies could be immunized.


Parvovirus: Serious Diarrhea in Puppies & Dogs

I agree with Rhett's Mom. Your breeder started his vaccinations too early. She is partially to blame.

Here is a great explanation of titers:

TITER TEST

[ladyjane]

The only thing I have to add here is that I would be careful with him for the rest of his life. No boarding, no staying at a groomer's for the day. He will not get parvo or distemper if he is not exposed.

I would not allow him to be around any pups that you don't really know a history on; and no walking outside on grass that other animals have eliminated on.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

The only thing I have to add here is that I would be careful with him for the rest of his life. No boarding, no staying at a groomer's for the day. He will not get parvo or distemper if he is not exposed.

I would not allow him to be around any pups that you don't really know a history on; and no walking outside on grass that other animals have eliminated on.

This is what I have to do with my 14.5 year old Lady who can't get vaccinations anymore. (She has been diabetic for eight years and her immune system is too weak).

I pee pad trained her a few years ago since there are so many dogs in the neighborhood who potty on the grass. She only goes outside on my deck or in her stroller.

The few times I have had to leave her (my daughter's wedding and a few surgeries) shes stays with my vet in a special section with only a few cats or I hire a pet sitter. I groom her myself, no dog parks, pet stores, etc.

Lady is 14.5 so it's no big deal. It's a shame a 12 week old puppy will have to be the "boy in the bubble" for the rest of his life, though.

[Ladymom]

Double post

[kjc]

Been thinking about this pup all day... Too many variables to assume this pup cannot be vaccinated. The pup is tiny.. less than 2 lbs, the DHPP was given every 2 weeks, the addition of Coronavirus to the final vac series, the vet did not administer epinephrine which is standard treatment for Severe Anaphylactic Shock.

Core vaccines can be given every 4 weeks: Two weeks after vaccination the body is at it's peak producing antibodies. To vaccinate a small puppy again at this time is overloading his system. Had he been vaccinated at 4 weeks, the immune response has tapered off to almost nothing and it would have been a safer option to vaccinate at that time.

There are many different manufacturing processes for the core vaccines. The pup's reaction could have been caused by any component in the vaccine used. The next step would be to use a different manufacturer for the core vaccine, and have a dose of epinephrine drawn up and ready, along with oxygen and fluids (also for any vaccines in the future). Consider pre vac treatment with Benedryl. And I don't mean to go do this now.

First, I would have the titers done, to see where his immunity level is at.
If he needs revaccination, don't do it soon. Wait, but keep him in a protected environment, let him grow up a bit. The bigger he is, the better he will be able to handle being vaccinated. If his titers are low or non existant, he will need one series, repeat at one year, then every 3 years or titer, as an adult to establish protection.

Rabies can be done later, at 8 - 12 months, same precautions as above. If he stays tiny, consider doing 1/2 vaccine (although illegal to do in my state, my goal would be to establish protection moreso then to be legal), then titer and repeat in 4 weeks (1/2vac) if needed, then titer and repeat at one year.

This would be my plan, if he were my dog, as opposed to being a 'bubble' dog. If at any time he experiences severe anaphylaxis (needing more than Benedryl to control reaction), scrap this plan, get the letter and protect him for life.

This is just an option for you to consider, discuss with your vet, get a second opinion on. There is risk involved either way, but if he can tolerate minimal vaccination, he can experience more things throughout his life, like going to parks, and stores, and meeting other dogs and having fun. Not that being a house dog wouldn't be fun too....

[kjc]

Anaphylactic Shock:

Anaphylaxis in Dogs: Severe Acute Allergic Reactions

[Lucyana1129]

Originally Posted by kjc

Been thinking about this pup all day... Too many variables to assume this pup cannot be vaccinated. The pup is tiny.. less than 2 lbs, the DHPP was given every 2 weeks, the addition of Coronavirus to the final vac series, the vet did not administer epinephrine which is standard treatment for Severe Anaphylactic Shock.

Core vaccines can be given every 4 weeks: Two weeks after vaccination the body is at it's peak producing antibodies. To vaccinate a small puppy again at this time is overloading his system. Had he been vaccinated at 4 weeks, the immune response has tapered off to almost nothing and it would have been a safer option to vaccinate at that time.

There are many different manufacturing processes for the core vaccines. The pup's reaction could have been caused by any component in the vaccine used. The next step would be to use a different manufacturer for the core vaccine, and have a dose of epinephrine drawn up and ready, along with oxygen and fluids (also for any vaccines in the future). Consider pre vac treatment with Benedryl. And I don't mean to go do this now.

First, I would have the titers done, to see where his immunity level is at.
If he needs revaccination, don't do it soon. Wait, but keep him in a protected environment, let him grow up a bit. The bigger he is, the better he will be able to handle being vaccinated. If his titers are low or non existant, he will need one series, repeat at one year, then every 3 years or titer, as an adult to establish protection.

Rabies can be done later, at 8 - 12 months, same precautions as above. If he stays tiny, consider doing 1/2 vaccine (although illegal to do in my state, my goal would be to establish protection moreso then to be legal), then titer and repeat in 4 weeks (1/2vac) if needed, then titer and repeat at one year.

This would be my plan, if he were my dog, as opposed to being a 'bubble' dog. If at any time he experiences severe anaphylaxis (needing more than Benedryl to control reaction), scrap this plan, get the letter and protect him for life.

This is just an option for you to consider, discuss with your vet, get a second opinion on. There is risk involved either way, but if he can tolerate minimal vaccination, he can experience more things throughout his life, like going to parks, and stores, and meeting other dogs and having fun. Not that being a house dog wouldn't be fun too....

This is a very good plan of action. Im getting the titer done first. So Im praying the levels are high. But if not I think this would be the way to go. A house dog may have fun but he will get so much more out of life being able to go out and about. He has such a spunky outgoing attitude that I cant see him staying home all his life. Thanks for the opinions. Thanks to all of you. You have all been so very helpful.

[kjc]

Keep us updated... I'll keep the little guy in my prayers....

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Lucyana1129

I found out that they gave him DHPPCv. I am only familiar with DHPP and DHLPP.

I know you're past this point now, but I'd be furious if my dog was given anything but core vax without my permission. I really can't believe they gave this tiny pup Corona without asking you. But, moving on....

Originally Posted by Lucyana1129

This is a very good plan of action. Im getting the titer done first. So Im praying the levels are high. But if not I think this would be the way to go.

Remember - high titer numbers do not indicate a better/higher level of immunity. You can have a high or low titer, and it's still considered a "positive titer". In addition, please don't forget that you can have a positive titer - and a dog can still get infected. A positive titer indicates HUMORAL immunity, but cannot guarantee cell-mediated immunity. Conversely, a dog can have a negative titer and NOT get infected, bc while the humoral immunity measures negative - the dog HAS achieved cell-mediated immunity and is immune to that disease.

Titers are not accurate measures of a dog's immunity...if it were me, I wouldn't rely on them too heavily here, in terms of confirming immunity .

To be honest, if this were me - I'd probably wait until this pup matures a little. At that point, I'd follow the protocol Dr. Schulz follows w/ his personal dogs, not Dr. Dodd's protocol (in this case). In fact, heck, I'd even see if there is a way to consult/run this by Dr. Schulz himself (ie, email / phone).

[Rhetts_mama]

To the OP- are you sure the pup wasn't given epinephrine (adrenaline) with the sub q fluids? If a reaction is strong enough to require oxygen and fluids, it's generally strong enough to require something other than just benadryl. Benadryl takes too long to be absorbed to do any good during an acute anaphylactic episode. The epinephrine would increase blood pressure and heart rate during the time you were waiting for the Benadryl to kick in.

[Lucyana1129]

Im not sure if they did or not. She told us what happened but didnt really explain it like I would have liked her to. And when I asked her questions she was very condescending. And to Wylie's mom: I was angry about the whole situation. She kind of just blew it off like it wasnt a big deal. But you are right, they should have told me. However, I should have remembered to ask.

[kjc]

I totally agree with Wylie's Mom and Rhetts_mama. In the event your puppy was given epinephrine, then his reaction was the severe acute type, and vaccinating him again could very well be fatal. In which case the plan should be scraped.

Definitely a consult would be invaluable. I am not that familiar with doing titers, just repeated alot of what I had recently read. Maybe by the time your pup gets a bit older, a new test may become available that would be more accurate.

It's not too late to give her a call back. Just tell her you have some questions, as you were too upset about your pup the day it happened to remember all that she said. I call my vet back all the time. They answer the phone with 'Hello Kathy, How can we help you today?' Ha ha! And I just talk to the tech, tell them my specific questions, and ask for my vet to call me back when she has time. That way she has time to do any research or look in my file, and when she calls she has the answers right there, or if I think of something else, she'll tell me she'll call me back again if she doesn't know the answer. Don't forget, you are the client, you pay the vet for services, which means that the vet is working for you, you are the boss. You are only trying to determine the severity of his reaction, so that you can take better care of him at home. (So she doesn't think you're planning a law suit or anything)

Let me ask you this: Did she charge you for the emergency services she provided, in addition to the office visit and vaccines? If she gave epi, it should be on your receipt. Many times if something happens that is a result of a mistake on the vet's part, they will absorb the cost of getting your pet back to health, as healthy as he was when he came in the office.

Make sure too that you get a script for the epi-pen, if you haven't already.. or ask if she feels that would be a good thing to have for your pup.