Epilepsy Cluster Seizures

[ladyjane]

You don't have the knowledge to advocate for your pup? What does that mean? You clearly said that you don't like the side effects of the medications. Is that part of the problem? You give him supplements; but don't give meds for seizures. Is that your decision or the vet's? I am seriously finding this all difficult to read. I cannot believe that a vet would not give a pup medications for the number of seizures this poor baby is having.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

You don't have the knowledge to advocate for your pup? What does that mean? You clearly said that you don't like the side effects of the medications. Is that part of the problem? You give him supplements; but don't give meds for seizures. Is that your decision or the vet's? I am seriously finding this all difficult to read. I cannot believe that a vet would not give a pup medications for the number of seizures this poor baby is having.

WOW. Your post is really insensitive. I came here with my story to get help from peopel who might have gone through this have the knowledge but just to clear the air (not that I have to-especially if you had read my posts) My vet and two others felt that my dog didn't need meds. I was deeply concerned about hearing about the side effects of the meds. and my vet noted that the common seizure med. should not be used in small dogs. No I don't feel I have enough knowledge to go in and demand any one treatment not to advocate for my dog-how rude are you? Seriously saying that I don't liek the side effects of meds is part of the problem-do you always attack people about their concerns? If you find something difficult to read you should try reading what you rite to someone especially when I'm going through something like this and reaching out for advice from people...and if you find it difficult a vet would end up not making a decision to medicate or offer any treatment...HOW DO YOU THINK I FEEL? Hense I'm here looking for advice from others...getting as much education as I can...I went as far as the foremost authority on neurological issues on my side of the country (UC Davis) and still I'm looking for a better option to do more, the last thing I need is comments like yours thanks, no really thanks for making me feel horrible about this all over again. I really hope that if you have to go through something like this you don't run into someone who talks to you like this...

[Ladymom]

You can gain a lot of knowledge from this website, certainly enough to advocate for Elvis:

Canine epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs

[ladyjane]

Call me rude if you wish. I simply asked a question.

Why? Because of the following things that you posted:

Elvis has cluster seizures which means he has usually 3-5 seizure a little as minutes apart and for the length of several days at a time. He seems to be loosing his sense of smell and depth perception or sight in one eye, as well now lets his tongue often hang out of his mouth.

And, then this:

Updated no. The last from them was if he wasn't haven't seizures more than one a month, then they really couldn't help

And, finally this:

don't normally see dogs unless medication isn't controlling seizures that happen on a regular basis monthly.

The way that I interpret all of that is this: When you went to UC Davis originally the seizures were less than they are now because it says that they don't see dogs unless they have more than one seizure/month that is not controlled by medicine (key words!!). In other words: the specialist would expect that a vet would prescribe medications for a dog that was having seizures. THEN, if the seizures were not controlled, they would consider further testing.

Your dog the way that you describe him, in my opinion, needs medications. I can tell you that if my dog had as many seizures as you are describing for "days at a time" I would be heading straight to the vet without passing go. And I am quite sure my vet would be putting him on meds.

Rude? If you say so. What I can tell you is that you need to take Elvis to a vet sooner rather than later. That is ALL I am going to say. I will be saying prayers for Elvis.

[ladyjane]

More informational links:


A brief overview of seizures

Canine Epilepsy

Treating Cluster Seizures with Rectal and Oral Valium

Four Types of Dog Seizures

Home care for cluster seizures - Veterinary Medicine

[Ladymom]

The side effects from phenobarbital occur over many years. Lady was (and still is) on the highest dose possible for her weight for eight years before before her liver values were elevated. The liver is an amazing organ which can regenerate itself. I added Denosyl, started feeding her a homecooked diet for dogs with liver disease and her ALT is completely normal now. She will be 15 in 2 weeks.

A competent vet will monitor Elvis pheno levels with regular bloodwork. Other medications like KBr can be added. Add on drugs like potassium bromide (KBr) or Keppra can help control cluster seizures and often lower the dose of pheno necessary to control seizures.

When UC Davis saw Elvis his seizures weren't that frequent so they advised a conservative approach. Some dogs continue like that for years before they need medication. Some never do. Unfortunately, Elvis' epilepsy has gotten much worse quickly. Cluster seizures are a game changer. His seizures will most likely get more frequent and more severe until Elvis either dies during a seizure or has to be euthanzized due to irreversible brain damage. Worse case scenario and he does develop gradually develop liver damage over the years from from phenobarbital, his life expectancy will still be much longer than it is now.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

More informational links:


A brief overview of seizures

Canine Epilepsy

Treating Cluster Seizures with Rectal and Oral Valium

Four Types of Dog Seizures

Home care for cluster seizures - Veterinary Medicine

I'd like to publicly apologize for being so offended and well kind of rash in my response. But this is a very sensitive and stressful issue. I'm really doing the best I can here, and really a lot of my frustration stems from my need to understand things. I'm the type of person who likes to control the situation by gaining knowledge and understanding and making educated decisions, and I'm just not knowledgeable enough about a lot of this (I find a LOT of conflicting information which equates to confusion) to go to my vet or any other vet and demand anything so I'm relying on what I'm being told. Honestly I'm frustrated and feeling helpless by what I'm being told.
I should have just clarified the situation, the majority of my posts here end up being my personal unclear venting on the situation rather than clear and concise details. My vet told me phenobarbital was unsafe for small dogs and so forth and initially that other meds would be considered. I am going back and going to (as I said before) bring a print out of this to my vet to show that other people are finding success with medications and that I'm not being a hypochondriac with wanting treatment (medication) for Elvis. As well plan on recontacting UC Davis if something can't change the situation. I haven't even had him a year and although I don't know what was going on before he was with me, noticing how he has a lessened sense of smell, and how he now walks into things on his right side-despite nothing being seen that could affect his vision in his right eye (I did read that seizure damage to the optical nerves begins as depth perception loss) anyways it doesn't seem right that nothing can be done medically and he can decline so much in such a little amount of time. I have a rescue dog I adopted and I was able to completely transform him from being under weight, afraid, in generally poor health to a beautiful healthy adjust dog and seeing the opposite happen with Elvie in my care has been another aspect of devastation in this situation.
I've done as much as I can short of a prescription for his seizures (well I've done what I can under my own direction), dietary changes-he eats a raw diet now, modifying his other meds (flea, heart worm etc.) to ensure they are safe for dogs with seizures, as well taking out some plants from the yard and garden. With the holiday season arriving I've been especially stressed, Elvis is about due for his next cluster session and I'm terrified with all the family gatherings planned the stress of people and excitement in the house will be too much for him. I really appreciate the links being posted for me to look at that's so helpful I can only use Google so many times, it really helps to hear what other people have found in resources, as well as, other people's experiences and what they have done.
Again, I read what I had written in response later and I think my frustration in the situation caused a harsher response than necessicary, for that I apologize this isn't the place for conflict this is the place for knowledge, experience and positive sharing experiences...

[concretegurl]

I appreciate the prayers. We have gone to the vet several times, both for check ups and to the emergency vet after his seizures the first two times-I really felt kind of dismissed just because he "came out of it okay" and to two other vets for second and third opinions...I'm really thinking now I should find a vet who takes this more seriously or at least attempts to treat this aggressively rather than waiting for monthly episodes to happen before feeling this warrants meds.

[AllDogBoots]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

I appreciate the prayers. We have gone to the vet several times, both for check ups and to the emergency vet after his seizures the first two times-I really felt kind of dismissed just because he "came out of it okay" and to two other vets for second and third opinions...I'm really thinking now I should find a vet who takes this more seriously or at least attempts to treat this aggressively rather than waiting for monthly episodes to happen before feeling this warrants meds.

Ladymom has great information and experience and believe me, LadyJane really does care and only wants to help you. I think your plan is a good one. Find someone who treats it seriously and doesn't dismiss it. Some people are having great results with phenobarbital. My Max is only 6 months old. I'm proactive in checking his liver values and I know that I may have to deal with something happening down the road. But for now, he's seizure free. So, read the information that you have been given. I would also recommend (and I hope a seizure doesn't come anytime soon) that you videotape the episode. I brought my video to every vet and said "WATCH THIS". Hang in there and be proactive.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by AllDogBoots

Ladymom has great information and experience and believe me, LadyJane really does care and only wants to help you. I think your plan is a good one. Find someone who treats it seriously and doesn't dismiss it. Some people are having great results with phenobarbital. My Max is only 6 months old. I'm proactive in checking his liver values and I know that I may have to deal with something happening down the road. But for now, he's seizure free. So, read the information that you have been given. I would also recommend (and I hope a seizure doesn't come anytime soon) that you videotape the episode. I brought my video to every vet and said "WATCH THIS". Hang in there and be proactive.

That is excellent advice!

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

I appreciate the prayers. We have gone to the vet several times, both for check ups and to the emergency vet after his seizures the first two times-I really felt kind of dismissed just because he "came out of it okay" and to two other vets for second and third opinions...I'm really thinking now I should find a vet who takes this more seriously or at least attempts to treat this aggressively rather than waiting for monthly episodes to happen before feeling this warrants meds.

Maybe if they SEE what is going on, they will think differently. Cluster seizures are dangerous and even IF you don't have him on meds 24/7, you should have something on hand when he IS seizing. I would just die if this was happening to one of mine. Seizures are frightening...but, I need not tell you that.

As for your apology: Accepted, but you really did not have to apologize. I know that you are stressed...heck, I would be flipping out. Trust me, I mean no ill will to you or Elvis. Just trying to make sense of it all and trying to help you!

[Ladymom]

If you are frustrated with your local vets, don't bother with them. Since you have already been to UC Davis, just call them and let them know about Elvis' recent episode. I am certain they will take it seriously.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

If you are frustrated with your local vets, don't bother with them. Since you have already been to UC Davis, just call them and let them know about Elvis' recent episode. I am certain they will take it seriously.

I sent a private message back with the details. I have my video camera on hand but no I have yet to actually tape a seizures-especially since in the begining what Elvis does when he seizures doesn't look like seizure to me and doesn't look like anything I've seen in seizure videos. Unfortunately as I said when he has seizured I have been too freaked out and distracted to remember to get the video camera-the vet did say that not all seizures consist of "flopping around" and that the hardening of all his muscles and the falling over after being disoriented are seizures. At one of the emergency vets a couple months later a vet did witness the seizure and said it was in fact a seizure and that its not uncommon for seizures to differ in appearance-apparently some dogs just space out and fall over and Elvis is on the middle of the seizure extremes. Again he simply gets "drunk" looking, wobbles legs go straight out, falls over and tenses up and becomes unresponsive. He never shakes or looses bowels. Which I think is important for people to know so if anyone sees their dog doing this-it is in fact seizure,despite a lack of this type of seizure activity being readily available in video for people to compare it to. As soon as I do get a video I will post it everywhere I can so people can educate themselves on what they may be witnessing with their dogs.
On Friday I found a new vet...records are being sent over there, and we'll see how this goes, this vet is closer to my home, they have their own emergency after hours, so I'm not going to an emergency clinic and to a separate vet, and this vet actually has a large number of patients (dogs) who have epilepsy so they are familiar with treating it. We'll see how aggressive they are in treating it after my consultation...will post update after the appointment.
And to the person who private messaged me (you know who you are) I sent you a response but really wanted to double post in case you don't see it-please have the person you know contact me if possible I'm not sure how it can help but maybe there's some similarity in treatment success in dogs from the same breeding family.It would be really appreciated, especially if the issues are exactly the same. Also for clarification Elvis' seizures are diagnoses and a neurological issue, we have done the bile acid test twice, along with two sets of each test for environmental facts, liver/kidney function, ultrasounds,etc he was specifically tested for hypoglycemia at first because it is so common in Yorkies and if untreated causes mild seizures, but everything on those tests were normal both times, at my regular vet the set of test and at the vet I sought the first second opinion on (they felt that in order to give an opinion they needed to start from scratch and do the full testing and not just look at the results from my vet).

[concretegurl]

Also I wanted to ask everyone out there-the vet warned me about the side effects of anesthesia in dogs with epilepsy and I was horrified so I haven't gotten Elvis fixed yet. My female isn't fixed (her kennel retained breeding rights) so she's not going to be fixed for at least a couple years depending on if its decided she has a litter or not. I'm worried of course I'm playing with fire here having a male and female unaltered and my male (Elvis) having an neurological issue. Obviously I don't want to do anything that will risk his life-especially when it comes down to a matter of effort on my part-my female can be kenneled when in heat to keep them apart. Getting Elvis fixed would just eliminate an issue altogether though. So I wanted to hear from the rest of you who have dogs with seizures-did you get them fixed? Did your vets raise the same concerns, if you did get them fixed was everything okay during the procedure? I mean the vet reassured me the ideal place for Elvis to have seizures was in his office, but he has to inform me of the risk of death associated with epilepsy and anesthesia-I heard death risk and said forget it. But I wanted more feedback on this from people with experience before I go to the new vet and get their opinion too.

[Ladymom]

My vets assured me that anesthesia was perfectly safe for epileptics. Lady' been under anesthesia quite a few times for dentals and has never had a problem.