:thumbup: Exactly...I learned that with my IBD pup. The treats I give are healthy, BUT they were not good for him. Once I stopped them, the food worked for him really well.

Good News she used the EN on Izzy I just read her posts so click on her statistics and read her posts:) She also feeds fish with it. Please pm her as her case was almost identical to yours except yours never had the pancreatitis just ibd i believe but both vomitted blood.

BTW i agree with the no treat policy for dogs with ibd they only get their food that is it as a treat

Just wanted to add that TJ has IBD too, and we have been battling the past year with it. He gets homecooked meals, but we think that he was getting too much of the wrong kind of fiber. After researching about soluble and insoluble, and fermentation rates, and about each different types of fiber and what they do in the GI track, I finally understand what my Vet and Nutritionist were thinking was the problem. I had to start all over again slowly adding his stuff back in, but also adding the right kind of fiber for his needs. I also had to put him back on Tylan Powder, but I am hoping after 6 weeks of him not having episodes, then I can wean him off.

...I think the sweet potatoes did him in too :( ...but that's just TJ ~ IBD is really tricky, bc it is so general, just an umbrella for all the different things underneath it :(

ok thanks; i will read and ask her questions; i am glad to see that purina EN worked; i have to see how long she has been using it and if her dog is on steroids.

no she is not on steroids only tylan powder as she is the one that bought the capsule making machine and makes the capsules.

But i do know izzy is really picky too and would not eat the purina ha as i sent it to her to try it out

steroids can trigger pancreatitis and since her dog had pancreatitis as well like dex they usually will not do steroids with these dogs unless all options are exhausted for fear of setting off the pancreas

ok thanks; so tylan powder is the key here; so if i make a capsule, how to administer this becomes the challenge?

You can just put it in her throat with your finger or a pill gun.
Tylan capsules shouldn't be big.
A compounding pharmacy can make them for you, but they are very expensive (at least they were when we tried it). Some owners also just get the powder and sprinkle some on food (which is way less accurate, but some vets don't mind).

And as always, this doesn't work for every dog. Didn't work for us at all.

yeah i am pilling dd with cod but it is crumbly but i get 1/2 temaril p in there and it is a pretty good size pill.

You can make a meat ball with the EN to pill her as the capsules are really tiny - cindy can tell you how to do it - I will find the website she sent me but you need to talk to vet about it and get his take on it

the only problem is it is bitter and she is picky and if she will not eat food bc of it then she will be in a bad way again as some dogs will refuse to eat food due to taste of it

I'm a bit more forceful about things. When Ellie was on the powder, I mixed it in a small amount of food and force fed. We really just aren't so nice about things like that here. We're bigger, so we win the battle. lol

TJ gets a 'drop' of Tylan Powder in his AM meal. I mix it in a pea-size amount of natural organic apple sauce, and careful place it in 3 spots in his food. He def. smells it and "tries" to avoid it, but he winds up eating all his food, so i guess I am disguising it well enough ;)

lol you go girl - i told you mine are heathens lolll

I know this one says EPI - but it has some really, really good info on IBD
EPI in Dogs

Other Good Readings:
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/16/1050.pdf

Chronic Enteropathies - WSAVA2006

Probiotics : Uses, Side Effects, Interactions and Warnings - WebMD

Fiber in Dog Foods

http://www.walthamusa.com/articles/cgismintes.pdf

Diet and Large Intestinal Disease in Dogs and Cats -- Simpson 128 (12): 2717S -- Journal of Nutrition

Fermentable Fiber Foods

how long did u try tylan powder before u decided it's not working.

I guess it was a couple-few months.
Metro actually worked better for her, but only for about 10 days.
The only thing that actually worked was diet change along with a very patient vet who left full thickness biopsy open as an option, but never rushed into it (thankfully).

But at least you have prednisone if you can't find an okay diet.

ok; just finished cooking and feeding her ground turkey with oatmeal; and i added a capsule of gentle digest by ark natural. i had the bottle but never used it. i read the reviews today and i was impressed.
so i am hoping this diet will be good for now. friday i will start introducing the EN. if the EN doesnt work, at least i have the turkey and oatmeal recipe and i can get and add the balance it supplement to it.
would that be a sufficient diet, if everything else fails?
thanks

deb; i was looking at this site for purina Ha and i saw that the first ingredient is corn starch; also it has corn oil
so if a dog is allergic to corn; can they still eat this?

Purina Veterinary Diets HA HypoAllergenic Canine Formula Dry | PetFoodDirect.com

Corn starch, modified isolated soy protein, water, coconut oil, dicalcium phosphate, canola oil preserved with TBHQ, cellulose, corn oil, potassium chloride, vegetable gums (gum arabic and guar gum), salt, choline chloride, DL-Methionine, magnesium oxide, lecithin, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, vitamin supplements (E, A, B-12, D-3), riboflavin supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, copper sulfate, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, calcium iodate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

dd has allergies and does ok on it and dex has ibd and does ok. All i can say is it works for them but each dog is so different. It is process of elimination for these guys with ibd and allergies that is what makes it so tough. Do i think it is the greatest food - no way lol but it works for us

dd has allergies and does ok on it and dex has ibd and does ok. All i can say is it works for them but each dog is so different. It is process of elimination for these guys with ibd and allergies that is what makes it so tough. Do i think it is the greatest food - no way lol but it works for us[/QUOTE]

what i dont understand is if this food is hypoallergenic and corn being very common allergan; why are they including the corn startch and corn oil. they can use another oil or starch. sometimes i think they sabatage the food on purpose so the dogs keep getting sick. i just haven't seen any good rx food that is specifically for allergies or free of corn or rice.

yeah could be but then again dex has not been sick for almost 5 years. Trust me i know it can be frustrating but try not to over analyze it and give it a shot as if you want the best ingredients you may end up having to just homecook as there will be something wrong with any food. I have spent years reading every food trying to figure things out and made myself crazy and gave up. For dee dee there is probably a better food but until i can home cook not doing anything as i tried nb fish and sweet pot and venison and sweet pot and she was rubbing her face all the time from flaxseed i think in it and she does not do that on purina ha so I go with the less reactions these days

ava test results; blood and biopsy- IBD
 

i wanted to share this just in case someone might see something that her vet missed; thanks much

Biopsy results:
Microscopic description: the endoscopic biopsies of the gastric mucosa contain no visible microscopic lesion. The endoscopic biopsies of the duodenal mucosa contain diffuse infiltrates of lymphocytes and plasma cells throughout the lamina propria of the intestinal villi. The villi are somewhat thicker than normal and blunted as a consequence of the inflammatory infiltrates. The surface epithelium of the villi is intact and there is no evidence of erosion, ulceration or neoplasia. The microscopic findings in the small intestinal mucosa are consistent with a moderately severe, diffuse lymphoplasmacystic enteritis, i.e. chronic, idiopathic, IBD.

Microscopic interpretation: 1- gastric mucosa: No visible microscopic lesion
2- Duodenal mucosa: moderately severe, diffuse chronic, idiopathic IBD

Her recent blood tests done in March 2010; let me know if you need to know any other result

Abnormalities
Test result ref range
HGB 19.7 (12-18 g/dl) high
HCT 55.4 (37-55%) high
Neutrophil seg 56 (60-77%) low
Lymphocytes 40 (12-30) high
Eosinophil 1 (2-10%) low
Absolute Eosinophil 84 (100-1250/ul) low
Monocytes 3 (3-40%) borderline

GI panel: normal
Trypsin- like immunoreact 25 (5-35ug/l)
Folate 13.4 (4.8-19 ug/l)
Cobalamin (b12) 558 (284-836 ug/l)
Spec cPL 166 (=<200ug/l)

Highly digestible diets vs hydrolyzed diets
 

what is the difference between Highly digestible diets vs hydrolyzed diets?
ie purian Ha and purian EN

thanks

I do not see how anyone could read and interpret these results. This is something that should be done by a vet imho...and certainly not in a bubble. It takes so much more to diagnose a pup than that!

Honestly, if you are uncomfortable with your vet's diagnosis and planned course of treatment, a consult with a board certified internal med specialist would be the next step imho.

I am also going to suggest again that you have your vet do a consult with a vet nutritionist. That is not an expensive thing to do and would be logical in my opinon; because not only would you be getting some guidance on what to feed, but it would be like another opinion from a vet!

highly digestible means the food is much more easy to digest for example dogs with mvd need to be on a highly digestible protein diet like fish as fish is the most easily digested protein.

Hydrolized is where the protein is broken down in such a way the body does not recognize it as an allergent so why they are recommended for dogs with ibd (food intolerance) and allergy dogs.

here is a vet site I always refer to explaining some things on there

Understanding Blood Work: The Complete Blood Count (CBC) for Dogs

I can post on vet group i am on and send to my internal medicine specialist and dr dodds for them to review. But i think the answer is going to be food and possibly tylan powder or steroids. My friend had a yorkie that was constantly vomitting and diarhea and she went to see jean and jean put her on tylan powder and venison and sweet potato diet and her dog is doing well now and her name is meg and she is on here too. Her dog was not throwing up blood though. Susan davis says venison is a good diet for ibd. Now susan does recommend alot of supplements one being probiotics.

I know you are pulling your hair out as i would be as well.

You need to really find someone you can trust 100% and i know that is hard. I trust my internal medicine specialist and dr dodds 100% but it took a while to find that person I could trust after all i went through.

My ims said ibd dogs do not do well on chicken diets that she has seen as she told me that when i took dd to her a year ago when dd was having so many issues after metacam. When i see her she takes an hour with me going over everything thoroughly and that is after the intern takes all the notes. She wants to know every detail and i like that. She also cuts me a break on cost now that i have built a good relationship with her as she feels bad at all i have went through with dex and dd. Initially her consult was 160.00 but now i pay much less to see her and she emails me back when i am having a hard time with mine and the facility is 24/7 and they help me alot. Once you have a good relationship with them the money i feel was well invested as they have helped me alot.

When you have a sick dog it is nice to have relationships with people that you can count on 24/7. I finally feel i have that with vet groups i can consult with, ims, dr dodds, a couple vets i have become friends with on groups and vet techs as they always email me back to help me figure out what could be going wrong.

Sent you PM and hope Ava is doing better today.:(

Thanks Cyndi for helping Elly she has a tough case and sounds so much like Izzy to me as my dex never vomitted blood :(

thank you so much for the info
actually i was talking to an internist on the yahoo group and i shared her blood and biopsy results. he said her case is severe and she needs to be on steroids for a long time. he said EN won't be good for her; she needs to be on a hydrolized diet. so i am going to get the purina HA tomorrow. she's now on ground turkey and oatmeal and prednisone.
so i am hoping the HA will be good for her if she eats it.
deb do u know if 8% is low enough fat; i know low fat is best for her right now.
the purina EN canned has 3% ; izzy do u know how to convert the fat%?

thanks again

my only fear is she will not eat it as i sent some to izzy but she would not eat it. I am praying she will eat it.

8% is very low in fat. It is low in protein as well as i believe it is 18%. It does not come in can formula so you will have to soak it if you want.

she might eat it because of the prednisone making her hungry; but later on she might not. i will start mixing it for her tomorrow, we'll see.
i should transition her into it ; like few kibbles at a time, right?