Livi had to rushed to the vet just now...please keep her in your thoughts!

[MyTrixie143]

I don't know what supplement you are using to feed the pups but here is the recipe I used and it worked wonderfully. It's suppose to contain more calories for the pups but yet not constipate them or anything. It worked great for us.

1. 10 oz. of canned evaporated milk or goat's milk (not pasteurized cow's milk - this will cause scowers - dogs cannot drink normal cow's milk) Goats milk is by far the best to use. Wall Mart sells it.

2. 3 oz. sterilized water (baby water or boiled water) this is not needed if using goat's milk

3. 1 raw egg yolk

4. 1 cup of whole yogurt (avoid skim or fat free if at all possible)

5. 1/2 Tsp Karo Syrup or Corn Syrup (NOT HONEY !!!)



Place ingredients in a blender and blend or use a wire whisk. Be careful to not over blend and create a milk shake full of bubbles and then tube bubbles into the puppy.

Keep cool and discard leftovers after 7 days.

Warm formula to body temperature (dogs are around 101 degrees). Discard any un-used formula. This is a thick mixture - use a stomach tube to tube feed or enlarge the hole in the nipple for easy access for the pup.

[YorkieRealtor]

What type of scale are you using? You need a very precise scale that can measure small increments. A gram scale works well.
Lisa

Originally Posted by TammyJM

How incredibly kind of you to find someone to help me!! Will you please PM me their contact info? I am going to try these recipes. Livi's milk pretty much stopped the evening that my husband took Cadbury to the vet. That day/evening, he was too weak to even hold his up...and definitely did not suckle! Livi is a VERY smart and sensitive girl...it was so hard on her to see her puppies sick that day. Then, we were told that they could not surse until that medicine was out of Livi's system so that didn't help matters.

Does anyone know why the vet is opposed to Livi getting the Oxy shot...she wanted to her to have the Oxy nasal, but really does not want to give the shot...but said she would if she just had to.

One more question....should the puppies gain weight everytime that I feed them? Their little tummies feel and look round, but when I weigh them, it stays at the exact same weight. Is this normal? Will it start to increase the more that I am feeding them?

[TammyJM]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Tammy,

Some vets are opposed to giving the oxy shot for a multitude of reasons; if given too soon, it can cause a prolapse uterus; if an overdose is given it can cause arrythmias (abnoral beat), so the heart must be monitored. But, if given at the right dose it shouldn't cause any problems. Most vets administer about 1/2 cc for a toy breed. My vet always recommends 1/4 cc. I know nothing of the nasal Oxy....but, for the life of me with Livi's retained placenta, I would think the Oxy shot would be in order. Since Livi was at the Vet's, being administered IV, did the vet tell you if she'd passed the retained placenta?

They should be gaining weight daily, an average of an ounce a day.....as long as they aren't losing. My hand feed pups didn't begin gaining until the 2nd week, they even lost weight until I switched them to Goat's milk. They are over a week of age. Instead of an eyedropper, try attaching a preemie nipple to the syringe and see if they'll take it. They should be taking more than 2 or 3 cc now....Just from my experience by the 2nd week my kids were taking about 12 cc about every 4 hours.....by week 3 1/2 they were taking about 64 cc about every 6 hours. It's when I realized these kids could be weaned to lapping.....

The vet that treated her retained placenta was the one that I am upset with over the medicine. He said that she did pass it while she was there, I believe the second day. But he never said or wrote anything about giving her the Oxy shot...wonder why he didn't...of course I wonder about his reasoning in many areas. The vet that I like is the one that was looking for the Oxy nasal.

You said that they should be gaining about an ounce a day....mine have never done that...even before all of this.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

The vet that treated her retained placenta was the one that I am upset with over the medicine. He said that she did pass it while she was there, I believe the second day. But he never said or wrote anything about giving her the Oxy shot...wonder why he didn't...of course I wonder about his reasoning in many areas. The vet that I like is the one that was looking for the Oxy nasal.

You said that they should be gaining about an ounce a day....mine have never done that...even before all of this.

Tammy,
Remember they have taken a couple of steps back......I know I panicked when mine lost weight......give them time to recouperate, as long as they aren't losing.....

At least Livi passed the placenta....now to get rid of the infection. I know you're exhausted, worried and kicking yourself in the behind. That's very normal.....but, you are doing everything that you can possibly do now....it's all going to work out fine. We're all pulling for you.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by YorkieRealtor

I'm glad you took them all to the vet. I have found someone in your area who can show you how to tube feed, but it sounds like you are doing fine with the dropper. Just send me a message if you change your mind.
It could be that if the puppies will nurse a little that her milk will start to come in. Even weak puppies will normally nurse strongly for a short time if you try it a few minutes after they get a little sugar of some sort. Do you have nutridrops or even just a bottle of 50% dextrose? Give the puppies a dose of one of these things and then see if they will nurse a little.
You may already have this recipe, I am sending it just in case. It is Terri Shumsky's pudding recipe. It will help the milk come in and it is good for your mother if she is not eating/feeling well.
Mix
large 4 cup size vanilla pudding,
1/2 cup sugar,
4 cups of milk, and
4 egg yolks.
Cook on low heat to pudding consistency and offer to new mother at body temperature. She can eat as much as she wants. Has never caused diarrhea and brings in abundance of milk!!!
OR from scratch...
mix the following in a saucepan and cook to pudding consistency.
2/3 cup sugar
6 tablespoons cornstarch
1/2 teas salt
4 cups milk (or one can evap milk plus equal parts water to make quart)
4 egg yolks
3 teasp vanilla.
feed with syringe, on spoon, or let eat from bowl.
full of protein and nourishment....have never had it cause diarrhea.

Tube feeding is not advised unless you really absolutely know what you are doing.........

To Tube or Not To Tube

The answer to this depends entirely upon whether you want your puppies to live or not.

What! You say, tubing is the ONLY way to save puppies. And besides, it's fast.

Fast, yes, and deadly. It's one of those things that sounds too good (easy) to be true; and if it sounds too good to be true it is; we know that it is in our most private thoughts. Fast and deadly isn't doing your part by the bitch or the puppies. You may be certain that you are getting the tube in the esophagus (which leads to the stomach) and not the trachea (which leads to the lungs). But, this isn't the problem I'm referring to.

Consider this: when we eat, the process of eating stimulates waves of contraction throughout our entire GI tract. You know very well that as puppies nurse they defecate. That reaction is due to these waves of contraction, which are called peristalsis.

OK. So, we have a sluggish or weak puppy. We put it on the bitch and it won't nurse. What to do! TUBE. NO! If the puppy does not have a good sucking reflex, it will not have any peristalsis. This means the milk we force in through the tube will just sit there. When the tube is removed, it forces itself back up the esophagus, into the trachea, and ends up in the lungs. It does not travel down through the stomach into the intestine.

Now, how big is the stomach of a newborn puppy in your breed? 1/2 cc? Less? As much as 1cc? Probably not much more. That stomach is just a slightly wide spot on a narrow tube. So; let's stick 2 1/2 cc into it . Fast and Deadly. The stomach and esophagus will stretch a bit, then return to it's original shape and size after the milk runs into the lungs. Not going to raise many puppies that way.

Well then, what do we do? Easy. We give them sub-cutaneous dextrose and saline. Sugar in salt water. The solution which is used for IV therapy. All puppies need 3 things. Warmth. Water. Sugar. That' all they need right away and for an additional few days if necessary.

So, we take the weak puppy out of the whelping box. We drop a few drops of colostrum onto its tongue several times in the first few hours. Got that immunity taken care of. We keep it in a confined box with a heat source - a heating pad or light bulb, and we give subQ dextrose in saline to supply the sugar and water. We gently stimulate it to urinate and defecate. We've met all the puppies needs.

How much fluid do we give? We give enough to satisfy any current dehydration debt and to provide a cushion for an hour or two in the future. How much is that? It is enough so that when we refill the syringe with dextrose and saline, the last 10 cc injection we gave hasn't already disappeared. And it will disappear, just that fast, if the puppy is already dehydrated.

So first, we need to satisfy the back log, and then we put in some more. We want to raise a good sized lump . We want that lump to stay there a while. If it does, we can safely leave the puppy for a couple of hours. As time goes by, the fluids in this reservoir will be absorbed and the lump will disappear. Also, gravity will take a hand in removing the lump, shifting any spare fluids down around the neck.

We can keep this puppy going in this way for 2 to 4 days easily. There no danger here, if the area is clean when and where we inject, and as long as the needle is parallel to the body - not pointed down at the body. We don't want to pith the puppy (look it up). With the needle parallel to the body, the worst we can do is squirt the wall. The wall can take it. Fluids given intravenously, by contrast, would run the risk of drowning the puppy - excess fluids in the veins will force their way out through the lungs. This result is essentially the same as that of tubing. Not good. SubQ fluids are essentially outside the circulatory system - just in a repository under the skin. If a fluid defecit exists, they can be instantly drawn into the blood stream. Until then, they have no other effect on the body.

While we are satisfying the puppy's needs in this way, we will also repeatedly present a nipple to the puppy, several minutes after we have placed a drop of Karo syrup on its tongue. The Karo give the puppy an energy boost, so that when we place it on the bitch, it will make as strong an attempt to nurse as it can muster. We will also present the puppy with a bottle, as it will be easier for it to get milk from the bottle's nipple than from the bitch, most of the time, during the first couple of days.

One of the greatest deterrents to getting puppies started, after tubing, is the 'Pet Nurser' which is widely available. Few if any breeds will nurse off of this thing - maybe a couple of toy breeds I've never encountered. Rather, puppies from 4.5 oz to 2# and up will readily take a Playtex preemie, or Playtex 0-3 months nipple (slow flow), one which has a flat, button-like shape.

ANY puppy which does want to suck, but is unable to get enough from the bitch, should be asked to take the Playtex nurser. And if they don't learn to nurse from it within the first few minutes, as soon as an hour or two after birth, it's your fault, because they like this nipple just fine. Of course, you have to put the right stuff in it.

The concept of using a formulated synthetic milk replacer seems a bit bizarre. Cow's milk is good, it's complete, it contains the same things as dog milk. It's not quite as good as dog's milk, however, because it's too dilute. Cow's milk is 1/2 as concentrated as dog milk. So, all we have to do is go to the store and buy evaporated milk. Nothing could be simpler; comes in a can, easy to store and have on hand, useful for other purposes. We use the evaporated cow's milk, in the slow flow nipple (no modifications to the nipple, we want it to go in slowly, and to require some exercise from the puppy to make it work). We add a dollop of Karo syrup for energy and palatability, warm slightly, and that's it; it's perfect. Some of us seem to have a need to make life more complicated than it has to be. If you think your puppies suffer from the rare human problem where the size of the cow butterfat globule is too large for comfort, you can search out a source for evaporated, canned goat's milk. And you might wish to do that because it will make it seem as though your puppies have a special problem, not a routine, ordinary problem.
If you are faced with total milk replacement due to the death of a bitch, you will eventually have to add an egg yolk (without the white) to a can of evaporated milk with Karo, in order to raise the protein level even more. But, there is no need for this when we're simply supplementing.

These puppies which are eager to nurse, but just can't get anything from the bitch's nipples, will have good peristalsis. They will work at the nipple and develop their lungs and their body muscles, though only a fraction as well as they would if they were working on the bitch's nipples.

One caution when supplementing the large litter to lessen the stress on the bitch. You must be careful not to OVER feed. The idea is to take some load off her, so you should keep her out of the box for some time every day. We don't want to supplement and then let them drink their fill from their mother as well, then we'll only have fat and colicy puppies, not a mother in better shape.

[Mardelin]

I think Lisa understands the perils of tube feeding. However, these pups were not thriving and unable to nurse. So, as an alternative and to assist in saving these pups, it was suggested as a last resort.

By the way Lisa has been breeding/whelping alot longer than most of us. So, I know she wouldn't give advise without knowing the ramifications. She also went through a full day of locating someone that is in Tammy's area to instruct Tammy on how to tube feed.

[JeanieK]

I've read that tube feeding is actually preferred to bottle feeding, less chance of aspirating. I've never had to do either, so I have no personal experience, but have read it on here many time.

[JeanieK]

Also not sure what you have against goats milk, it is in the grocery store, right next to the evaporated milk. It's as close to dogs milk as you can get.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I think Lisa understands the perils of tube feeding. However, these pups were not thriving and unable to nurse. So, as an alternative and to assist in saving these pups, it was suggested as a last resort.

By the way Lisa has been breeding/whelping alot longer than most of us. So, I know she wouldn't give advise without knowing the ramifications. She also went through a full day of locating someone that is in Tammy's area to instruct Tammy on how to tube feed.

Like I said , unless you know absolutely what you are doing.

[Breezeaway]

All I can say at this point is I offered help, I have a top knotch vet, actually one of the best. I offered to take the pups and get them up to the age they would be ok and take them back to her. Have not heard a reply.

[bchgirl]

Tammy...I hope the pups are able to get nourishment one way or the other and glad that you have a contact to help with tube feeding. I know plenty of people who have had to tube feed puppies and not because they were supplementing...but it was the only method to feed the pups.

Sending big prayers and hugs.

[TammyJM]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

All I can say at this point is I offered help, I have a top knotch vet, actually one of the best. I offered to take the pups and get them up to the age they would be ok and take them back to her. Have not heard a reply.

WOW! Deb, I am in tears AGAIN...just reading this from you! I sign on here to respond and keep people updated. I do this even though I do not have the time or energy. I do appreciate your offer....my head has been spinning and to put rational thoughts together seems a tough task at times. To send my puppies to you...aren't you thousand of miles from me? I did PM you back today telling you that I would try to call you and that I appreciated you writing to me. I just now finished a feeding, sat down to actually eat and thought that I would write an update. To pick up the phone and call someone right now doesn;t seem like something I even have time to do. Typing this takes me a minute. When my own mother calls, I tell her that I do not have time to talk....I have sooooooo much on my plate...I have this, plus I have two small children that expect to still have life somewhat normal.

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. But these are my puppies and I am doing my best!

[TammyJM]

We are showing progress...I hate to say this and jinx it, but wanted to share this with you all. Livi and I worked as a team throughout the night/morning. I was up every hour to every hour and a half to get things set up and started. Livi was diapering, I was feeding with the eye dropper, then giving them back to Livi and letting them latch on (she does have two teats with some milk). The babies' weights at this time yesterday were:
Cinnamon: 6.9
Cadbury: 8.1
Cupcake: 6.9

This morning's weights are:
Cinnamon: 7.4
Cadbury: 8.5
Cupcake: 7.4

They are latched onto Livi right now...after I finished feeding them, this is what they have been doing so hopefully, her milk will start to come in. I am afraid to let myself be too happy...fear of something else going wrong, but we are on the right track....aren't we???

[Pinehaven]

The pups are gaining weight, that wonderful news! Let them nurse Livi as much as they want and hopefully that will get her milk production going. Are you giving Livi a calcium suppliment?

[carmen in nj]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

We are showing progress...I hate to say this and jinx it, but wanted to share this with you all. Livi and I worked as a team throughout the night/morning. I was up every hour to every hour and a half to get things set up and started. Livi was diapering, I was feeding with the eye dropper, then giving them back to Livi and letting them latch on (she does have two teats with some milk). The babies' weights at this time yesterday were:
Cinnamon: 6.9
Cadbury: 8.1
Cupcake: 6.9

This morning's weights are:
Cinnamon: 7.4
Cadbury: 8.5
Cupcake: 7.4

They are latched onto Livi right now...after I finished feeding them, this is what they have been doing so hopefully, her milk will start to come in. I am afraid to let myself be too happy...fear of something else going wrong, but we are on the right track....aren't we???

You are doing very good, as long as the puppies are gaining they are fine also as long as livi is eating and getting her calcium she will be ok too..
best of luck for today, sending prayers for another Great day,
hugs,
Carmen in nj