neurological issue....liver shunt

[Yorkieluv]

Thanks for posting that! We give vitamin E along with the Hepatosupport.

I know that many people use marin with success, but for people with dogs that have history of severe hepatic encephalopathy symptoms, I don't feel comfortable recommending a pill that contains two ingredients (yeast and liver) that are not recommended for them. I realize that they are small amounts and are merely for flavor, but in my humble opinion, this can make an impact on very sensitive dogs over time since it is given everyday. I prefer to error on the side of caution.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Thanks for posting that! We give vitamin E along with the Hepatosupport.

I know that many people use marin with success, but for people with dogs that have history of severe hepatic encephalopathy symptoms, I don't feel comfortable recommending a pill that contains two ingredients (yeast and liver) that are not recommended for them. I realize that they are small amounts and are merely for flavor, but in my humble opinion, this can make an impact on very sensitive dogs over time since it is given everyday. I prefer to error on the side of caution.

I defer to you on that one since Lady takes it to protect her liver from damage from her seizures medications, not a shunt. I would also give the Vitamin E if you use milk thistle, though, as that is what Dr. Tobias recommends. I'd been giving Lady plain milk thistle from GNC until I was told that by a patient of Dr. Tobias.

[gianic]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Good night I hope there's a good update tomorrow morning!!

Hi, I am so relieved to find this forum. My almost 4 year old Fernando has just been diagnosed with Microvascular Dysplasia. He began to seize (clusters) last Sunday and long story short wound up in the hospital on pheno barb. After the blood tests and ultrasound, they ruled out PPS (not with 100% certainty without a liver biopsy.
He is currently on the lactulose (1.5 ml 3 x per day), Metronidazole(1 ml 2xper day) and Pot. Bromide(.05ml 1x daily)
In addition to this they put him on Hills l/d.

He came home Tuesday night with the meds, and 2 pcs of paper and I have not been able to get the vet from the hospital to call me back since 10:00 am Wed. I have been in touch with my regular vet and yesterday and he's been great but I honestly don't think he has enough experience with this condition. I had to take him in because he was biting at his back paw and scratching his face a little too often. The vet was concerned about a possible an allergic reaction to the meds or food. We're watching him closely. But, now he found an ear infection so more meds!!

I have been sick over this. Nobody can give me a definite prognosis or longterm lifestan expectancy. I believe his liver looked normal in the ultra sound so I'm being optimistic and believing that's a good sign.

I've been on line for 3 days straight from early in the morning until late at night searching for supplements to his diet and researching as much info I can absorb. I've been in touch with Lou from b-naturals and am getting the milk thisle and sam-e.

One of the biggest obstacles I am facing is that he's hungry. Not for the food but for his treats and bones. Fernando aka nonnie loves his treats and is used to me adding some meat to his dog food and is going thru withdrawal. I went to Petco and everything had too high crude protein levels.

Can anyone help me - what r some alternatives. I saw a message about baked treats - r these for low protein diets? I am so scared that his little life is in my hands and I feel that I don't know enough about the diet and that I'm going to do something that hurts him. I don't need to say as I have noticed on this forum how you all feel but, he is such a big part of my families life and we love him so dearly. I need to do whatever I can to try to keep him healthy and happy and I'm so sick over it.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for any advise. links or experienced any of you may have had with this nightmare!

[Yorkieluv]

gianic, I am on my way out the door, but I will be back in about 45 minutes...Can you come back on in about 45 minutes to check for a post or pm from me? I will help you as much as I can...Also, in the mean time, please join this group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/L...d_MVD_Support/

I am on that group as well and will help answer any questions you may have.

Try not to worry, this is not a death sentence!!

[gianic]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

gianic, I am on my way out the door, but I will be back in about 45 minutes...Can you come back on in about 45 minutes to check for a post or pm from me? I will help you as much as I can...Also, in the mean time, please join this group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/L...d_MVD_Support/

I am on that group as well and will help answer any questions you may have.

Try not to worry, this is not a death sentence!!

will do - thank you so much

[gianic]

Thanks so much - will do

[Yorkieluv]

I am so sorry it took me so long... It took me forever to get back here...

Okay, first of all, liver disease is not a death sentence. Most of us with liver compromised dogs were given a grim prognosis, but these little guys are strong and can live close to normal lives with proper food, lactulose, and supplements.

Let's start with lactulose...This is extremely important because it helps bind up the toxins and push them out of the body. The goal is for your dog to have 2 bowel movements per day, and they should be soft and difficult to pick up, but not diarrhea and not firm. So, if your dog is not doing this, then the lactulose needs to be increased. It may be best if you give it around meal time.

Antibiotics like metronidazole are usually prescribed to these dogs on a long-term basis in LOW doses...much lower than normal doses to help with the toxins as well.

There are a couple of supplements that are helpful: milk thistle, denosyl, and vitamin E.

Milk thistle should be given in dried herb form rather than liquid form because many of the liquid forms include alcohol which should not be given to them. This helps protect the liver from further damage and helps regenerate parts that are already damaged.

Denosyl (Sam-E) HAS to be given on an empty stomach preferably in the morning, 1 hr before feeding. If it's given with food, it's as good as not giving the pill at all. This supplement contains antioxidant that help the protect the liver as well.

Vitamin E - Liver compromised dogs are typically low on Vitamin E and should be supplemented with it. It is beneficial in many ways.

My yorkie was born with liver problems and we were told that he would die when he was a pup, but I'm happy to say that he will be 4 yrs old in a couple of months!! He's healthier than ever now!

Not only is important to note the amount of protein your baby gets, it's also important to watch the *type* of protein...Organ meats (pork/chicken liver) and red meats(beef, lamb, venison) should be avoided altogether. These are very hard on the liver and produce the most amount of toxins which will end up circulating in the body and causing neurological problems like seizures, etc.

How much does your dog weigh? The recommendations for protein amounts are as follows:
2-3 grams of protein per kg of body weight per day. Closer to 2 if your dog is symptomatic, which if your dog has seizures, he would be considered symptomatic, and then you can work your way up to 3 very slowly if he does alright.
1 can of l/d contains 16 grams of protein...If you tell me how much he weighs, I'll be able to tell you how much he should be getting.

As far as snacks are concerned, peeled apple pieces (no seeds, of course) are excellent treats and a great source of fiber for them. Seedless watermelon is also great. You can give cooked carrots and cooked green beans as treats as well.

Does this help? Do you have any other questions?

Please join that group that I sent you a link for...Post your situation and information about your dog and you will get lots of help.

[gianic]

You are a god sent!
Fernando weighs 9 lbs. I'm under the impression that he should have 1/2 can per day. 1/4 per serving. The problem with him is that I have alway substitute table food. His past diet has been RICH in meats!! Who knew. In fact, the night before he was diagnosed with the HMD I brought him a steak to the vet. hospital.

His treat of choice is liver treats and every time he goes out, he walks to the closet for his treat. Today I substitued apple and carrots and he did so well. This morning I cooked and cut up 1/4 sweet potato and added it to the l/d - he ate about 1/2 of it - better than nothing. I'm going to try the green beans so I can use them at the nighttime feeding. (his poop was very orange today - I'm contributing it from the carrots and sweet potato) So far, his bowl movements are @ 2x a day and seem to be the proper consistency.

I also think I need to not overdue it because his diet has been so dramatically changed overnight. That's another concern I have.

Is there a possibility that can give him too many fruits or vegs that can hurt him?

Also, I want to make some treats (something crisp) I was going to try oats, applesauce and whole wheat flour. The recipe I saw also had corn meal - I need to check that out.

The vet will havethe Sam-e and milk thisle for me tomorrow.

With the substitues I now have and the info you have given me, I am having a much better day. And Fernando is as well with his new found love of apples and carrots.
I can't thank you enough!! Any further advise you have is SOOOOOO welcome.
Gina

[Yorkieluv]

Oats are not exactly recommended as a daily thing because they are high in purines which can contribute to stone formation which is very common when their livers are not working properly. Also, whole wheat flour has 16 grams of protein per cup. That's a lot...

You might try pureeing the veggies after cooking and before adding them to the l/d. It's fine to give those veggies. Fiber is good for them. In fact, I homecook for my liver compromised dog..The diet consists of green beans, carrots, sweet potatoes, and white potaotes ...I use egg white as the protein source.

Another little piece of advice is that Fernando should now have at least 3 to 4 meals per day instead of 2....Having only 2 meals per day makes the liver work too hard. Offering 4 small meals per day would be much better for him and he will be more likely to eat if you do this. Giving only 2 meals makes him take in too much protein at one time which will make him feel sick and he will attribute this feeling to the food.

If the carrots are not cooked, they will come out the way they came in b/c dogs cannot digest veggies like humans. Veggies need to be cooked and/or food processed in order for them to get nutritional value.

[gianic]

Great advise - thanks.

It's funny - went to the grocery store and stood in the cereal isle and read all the labels on the oats, wheats, wheat flour etc. I left with only squash and green beans. I cooked the beans up and gave him just a few (don't want to add too many new foods in his diet at once because i wont know what could cause a problem if there is one.) He like them - Thank God! My 1 year old girl yorkie Bella didn't. It's hard feeding both of them at the same time because she wants to try his new food and I'm like the guard making sure he doesn't go near her food. There normal tradition was to switch when they were both done. Bella is just confused by all this and I think she also feels left out that she can't get the meds.

I will follow your advise on the 4 small meals. Do you suggest I spread out the l/d with veggie addition to all 4? He's not eating the l/d on it's own I have to add something to it and now with the carrots, sweet potatoes, white potatoes and green beans I have a little variety.

Also, I only have the canned l/d. The vet says it comes in dry as well. Since his diet used to be 1/2 wet and 1/2 dry before this diagnosis I may get the dry and combine both with a different vegetable addition for part of the feedings.

One more question, what do you think about baby food? Fruit and Veggies only of course. I'll need to check the labels but I was thinking about having them on hand.

I was also reading a post that you gave your dog celery - what other veggies do you give him and do you add them to the dog food?

I can't thank you enough for taking time out to assist me. Were having a much better day today! Even with the snow.
Gina

[gianic]

Oh I forgot - what is heptosupport?

[Starshineyorkie]

Originally Posted by scrappymomma

Thank you everyone!

A HUGE thank you to Yorkieluv!

Sissy finally had a bm at 5 am, I kept giving her the lactulose slowly every hour and she did go a large bm. I was so thrilled! She is still a tny bit weak but sooooooo much better. She is back to drinking and eating on her own.

I am kinda wondering if they got into some food they werent sapose to. She has a little brother Diesel that is 3 1/2 pds that is doing the same thing that Sis was yesterday. He hasnt had a diagnosis but they "suspect" he is liver comprimised also. I just look at these babies and think what am I doing wrong? I have 4 Yorkies and 2 are sick. I am gonna try the same thing with this little guy as I did last night with Sis. He isnt walking right now but no seizures either. We did just wake up so I hope he didnt have one while we were sleeping.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and prayers and yorkieluv for staying up with us last night.... you saved us from a emergency trip to the vet last night and my sanity I'll let you know my little guy pulls out of this. Its so sad to see him try to get up and his legs just collapse from under him but Im gonna keep him right here with me.

Hi Kelly,
I just saw your thread, how are Sissy and Deisel doing?

[scrappymomma]

Hi Chris, they are so much better tonight. They really scared me for awhile there though. How have you been?

Thanks again Yorkieluv, I don't know what I would've done without you! Would you say the RC dry and the wet Hills is a good diet to be on long term? I dried some of those sweet potato sticks form costco in the oven for a snack abd they loved it. The green beans they wouldn't touch but I will try it again later. Thanks again, I cant say it enough

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by scrappymomma

Hi Chris, they are so much better tonight. They really scared me for awhile there though. How have you been?

Thanks again Yorkieluv, I don't know what I would've done without you! Would you say the RC dry and the wet Hills is a good diet to be on long term? I dried some of those sweet potato sticks form costco in the oven for a snack abd they loved it. The green beans they wouldn't touch but I will try it again later. Thanks again, I cant say it enough

Yes, that's a good long-term diet for a liver compromised dog...It contains the right amount of protein, and maybe even a bit extra. I gave RC dry with water added to my liver compromised yorkie for almost 2.5 yrs, and he did well. I'm glad they liked sweet potato added to their food! You can just boil sweet potatoes if you like too but don't give it in large quantities because several dogs are sensitive to manganese which sweet potatoes have a moderate amount of. Green beans might be an acquired taste!

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by gianic

Great advise - thanks.

It's funny - went to the grocery store and stood in the cereal isle and read all the labels on the oats, wheats, wheat flour etc. I left with only squash and green beans. I cooked the beans up and gave him just a few (don't want to add too many new foods in his diet at once because i wont know what could cause a problem if there is one.) He like them - Thank God! I'm so glad he like them!! My 1 year old girl yorkie Bella didn't. It's hard feeding both of them at the same time because she wants to try his new food and I'm like the guard making sure he doesn't go near her food. There normal tradition was to switch when they were both done. Bella is just confused by all this and I think she also feels left out that she can't get the meds. I know how that is...I feed my two the same food now, but my healthy girl gets extra protein added to her food

I will follow your advise on the 4 small meals. Do you suggest I spread out the l/d with veggie addition to all 4? You can add a little bit of veggies to each meal if you like.He's not eating the l/d on it's own I have to add something to it and now with the carrots, sweet potatoes, white potatoes and green beans I have a little variety.

Also, I only have the canned l/d. The vet says it comes in dry as well. Since his diet used to be 1/2 wet and 1/2 dry before this diagnosis I may get the dry and combine both with a different vegetable addition for part of the feedings.Hill's l/d dry contains ethoxyquin which is a preservative that is very controversial and is thought to be a carcinogen and bad for the liver. I would not give the dry, but that's a personal choice.

One more question, what do you think about baby food? Fruit and Veggies only of course. I'll need to check the labels but I was thinking about having them on hand. Fresh fruits and veggies are better, if possible.

I was also reading a post that you gave your dog celery - what other veggies do you give him and do you add them to the dog food?I have stopped doing that as celery is high in sodium and don't recommend it as often as I used to. Every once in awhile, I will juice part of a zucchini and give it to him though. It helps cleanse the liver, bladder, and body. Surprisingly, he loves it

I can't thank you enough for taking time out to assist me. Were having a much better day today! Even with the snow.
Gina

I really don't mind Know that you can pm me anytime with questions as well. I may not have all the answers, but I will help you find them.