Bile Acid Test- vet want to now do biopsy. I am so worried

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by mrshelbysmom

shelby ran around like a puppy too until he would start having these "tremors" that I am still not sure were not seizures of some sort but that is why the specialist thought he may have LS but she never believed he was having tremors either (she decided he was just nervous) however 2 ER docs and his reg vet saw what I was talking about.. I wish I had know about this sight a few months ago, I might have saved him some suffering or maybe his precious life.

I am so sorry to hear about your baby. That is so sad.
You will be so glad you discovered YT. I don't know where i would be w/o it??? What better advice than from someone that owns these precious little babies. we are all here to help in any way we can. So many caring people here for you! :-)

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by sadiesamie

Welllll...i finished them and as they were cooling i broke off a tiny little piece and gave it to the girls. I always start with a super small piece of something new and as I was typing the last note I heard Sadie next to me doing something and when i looked she had puked it up? I don't know why? :-(

maybe tomorrow i will try a batch with only the white flour.

ok- so you know this morning the first thing i did is start mixing up a new batch and this time i made with unbleached white flour. they are staying down! so - so far so good! And you are right- they absolutely LOVE them! :-) thanks so much again for helping me with this!!! xoxoxo...
i will be in touch! have a great week!

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by sadiesamie

The biopsy she wanted to do though she said she would be lightly sedated for only 5 min and they would go in with a small needle and grab a tiny bit of tissue. she would not be completely under. the sedation only to keep her still. 781.00 for that test and 98.00 for a coulaggutaion test that would have to be done 48 hrs before the biopsy. we just got done spending over 5200.00 the past 6 mos on other tests with my other yorkie. so we do not have it. the vet gets so test happy and then 1000 dollars later then we go to see a specialist. My other dog has Gloumelular disease -but it took the specialist to determine that.

I would not recommend this type of biopsy. They only get a VERY small piece of the liver thus making the biopsy inconclusive. That is a lot of money for no results. Ellie was under for her spay and had an actual biopsy (where they take a good size piece of the liver). It seemed pretty normal but with all of that we still haven't ruled out MVD because only one sample from one section of liver was taken... It is best to at very least get one good size sample but way better is to get several samples. This is abdonimal surgery though...

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I would not recommend this type of biopsy. They only get a VERY small piece of the liver thus making the biopsy inconclusive. That is a lot of money for no results. Ellie was under for her spay and had an actual biopsy (where they take a good size piece of the liver). It seemed pretty normal but with all of that we still haven't ruled out MVD because only one sample from one section of liver was taken... It is best to at very least get one good size sample but way better is to get several samples. This is abdonimal surgery though...

thank you so much for telling me that. I tell ya what if it wasn't for YT we would have already done the test. I am still researcing on line for anything i can find also. So scary to even think about that. It's been hard too bc my little girl has been looking for her canned food. She loves the stuff. every time i open the fridge there she is giving me that look like as if she is saying i'm ready. when i close the frig she then has the look like hey...what's goin on? i hate to do it but i need to not give it to her and keep her diet to the same as her first test.

I gave her the Ursodiol last night for the first time and she has not got diarrhea so far.. so good. she did have a tiny amount of the canned Innova when during the time when she had her first bat test over a month ago. It was only used for pills only. so that is what i am reverting back to it now when i give her the demarin. it worked out much better this morning. Lots less food with her pill to hide it.

Sadie still is getting the wellness. only with meds now though. i am too nervous until we get her tested i have backed off some. I give her the homemade treats that i made for snacks about 3 x a day. The treats may actually have 0% protein in them- not for certain though.

Makes me wonder where we would be if we had done the biopsy the vet wanted to do and she found find nothing. so you are saying that several of the liver would have to be tested and pretty much if they go in and grab a tiny piece- it very well could be the wrong piece "if" she did have something going on?

I wont have her teeth cleaned for fear of putting her under with the ct...let alone this if she needs to have it done i don't know what i will do?

[TLC]

Ahhh....so sorry the first batch made her sick. Sometimes you have to play around with the recipe to get it just right, but remember, less is better, so the least amount of things you can make the treat out of the healthier it actually is for them.

[Ellie May]

LOL you're welcome. Some vets are so test happy that they forget what they are testing for.

Probably the only way I would do a liver biopsy is by opening the dog up and taking a sample. Several samples is best... An actual large liver shunt doesn't show on a biopsy. MVD (multiple small shunting does). You have to do a scintography or portogram to rule out a large shunt... MVD is usually spread thorughout the liver, so one sample SHOULD be good enough, but I think vets are finding now that MVD could be focal (localized), so more than one sample is best.

I don't know where I would be without the internet either. Ellie just went to a specialist and I am certainly glad I knew enough to not go along with one of her ideas/thoughts. It could've made Ellie's liver worse.


If you are talking about the regular Innova canned, it is VERY high in protein AND fat. The Wellness though is way too high in protein and high oxlate foods.

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

LOL you're welcome. Some vets are so test happy that they forget what they are testing for.

Probably the only way I would do a liver biopsy is by opening the dog up and taking a sample. Several samples is best... An actual large liver shunt doesn't show on a biopsy. MVD (multiple small shunting does). You have to do a scintography or portogram to rule out a large shunt... MVD is usually spread thorughout the liver, so one sample SHOULD be good enough, but I think vets are finding now that MVD could be focal (localized), so more than one sample is best.

I don't know where I would be without the internet either. Ellie just went to a specialist and I am certainly glad I knew enough to not go along with one of her ideas/thoughts. It could've made Ellie's liver worse.


If you are talking about the regular Innova canned, it is VERY high in protein AND fat. The Wellness though is way too high in protein and high oxlate foods.

It is Innova senior and it has turkey, potatoes and yes carrots but the orange carrots stand out and they are big enough to see so i pick them out. but it has 4.4 % protein (wellness has 8 %) and crude fat 3.2 %

samie literally only gets the smallest dab. Like the size of a pea. I give her the soloxine with her dog food. But that darn Demarin will not hold the food. I have a small about of dog food that i wet real good and refrigerated. i am going to try to use it again when I give her the demarin. If you come across a canned food you think would work for this then i am open to one :-) I have been researching food for months and especially in the canned I cannot find nothing. However the way i ended up with the Innova senior again is i compared it to the pres hills canned L/D and the innova was actually lower in protein than the hills pres.

The first batch of treats i made didn't go to waste either. i have been snacking on them LOL!!!!! :-) too funny! they really are good! The rye flour is very sweet and nutty tasting. haha!

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by sadiesamie

It is Innova senior and it has turkey, potatoes and yes carrots but the orange carrots stand out and they are big enough to see so i pick them out. but it has 4.4 % protein (wellness has 8 %) and crude fat 3.2 %

samie literally only gets the smallest dab. Like the size of a pea. I give her the soloxine with her dog food. But that darn Demarin will not hold the food. I have a small about of dog food that i wet real good and refrigerated. i am going to try to use it again when I give her the demarin. If you come across a canned food you think would work for this then i am open to one :-) I have been researching food for months and especially in the canned I cannot find nothing. However the way i ended up with the Innova senior again is i compared it to the pres hills canned L/D and the innova was actually lower in protein than the hills pres.

The first batch of treats i made didn't go to waste either. i have been snacking on them LOL!!!!! :-) too funny! they really are good! The rye flour is very sweet and nutty tasting. haha!

The Senior Innova is better than the regular. I don't know if there is a canned food you could use that would be a good choice.

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

The Senior Innova is better than the regular. I don't know if there is a canned food you could use that would be a good choice.

tonight i made a really wet ball of food (the dry Wellness that i wet) i formed a tiny meatball and set them in the frig. i am going to try using that in the morning.

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by TLC

Here is where I buy the stuff. No you don't need a Vet to buy it.

http://www.homevet.com/osc/product_i...cb47e841f2f3dd


http://www.homevet.com/osc/product_i...?products_id=9

Do you have any more info on the Hepato support you can give me? is this supplement the one that you don't have to give on an empty stomach? this getting up at 4 am is hard on me but i will do it if i have to conitinue to do so. i am comparing it to the demamarin and i am interested in ordering it but i can't find any other info on line other than is contains 30 % silibarmin and 80 % silymarin.

also the Vetri-Dmg Metabolic enhancer- what is this used for? also maybe the denosyl would be better than the denamarin. 18.99 for 30 tabs and she would get 1/4 of a tab. otherwise the denamarin is 60.00 for 30 days. is there a diff b/w these 2?

[Ellie May]

How are things going?

The Vetri is a replacement for Denosyl but I would try the Denosyl first (which you are in the Denamarin).

How much does Samie weigh?

[Yorkieluv]

Innova senior is around 20% protein on a dry matter basis. Turkey is not exactly recommended for liver compromised dogs because of the tryptophan content, but I would say it's much better than venison, beef, or lamb.

Hepatosupport can be given with meals and does not need to be given on an empty stomach...This takes the place of the "marin" portion of the Denamarin.

It contains Milk Thistle Extract (providing 80% of the active flavonoid Silymarin) 100 mg. Milk thistle helps protect the liver from further damage and also helps regenerate parts of the liver that already have been damaged.

Hepatosupport comes in either liquid form or capsule form. I would recommend capsule form...Open the capsule and dump the contents onto the food. If you buy from that website TLC recommended, the vet will tell you the amounts you need to give.
If you give Hepatosupport, then you need to discontinue the Denamarin, and give either Denosyl or Vetri-DMG instead to take place of the "den" portion. Vetri-DMG is supposed to do the same thing as Denosyl but does not need to be given on an empty stomach. It can be given with meals.

Denosyl, on the other hand, does need to be given on an empty stomach.
This is the reason why Denamarin needs to be given on an empty stomach. It contains denosyl...

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Innova senior is around 20% protein on a dry matter basis. Turkey is not exactly recommended for liver compromised dogs because of the tryptophan content, but I would say it's much better than venison, beef, or lamb.

Hepatosupport can be given with meals and does not need to be given on an empty stomach...This takes the place of the "marin" portion of the Denamarin.

It contains Milk Thistle Extract (providing 80% of the active flavonoid Silymarin) 100 mg. Milk thistle helps protect the liver from further damage and also helps regenerate parts of the liver that already have been damaged.

Hepatosupport comes in either liquid form or capsule form. I would recommend capsule form...Open the capsule and dump the contents onto the food. If you buy from that website TLC recommended, the vet will tell you the amounts you need to give.
If you give Hepatosupport, then you need to discontinue the Denamarin, and give either Denosyl or Vetri-DMG instead to take place of the "den" portion. Vetri-DMG is supposed to do the same thing as Denosyl but does not need to be given on an empty stomach. It can be given with meals.

Denosyl, on the other hand, does need to be given on an empty stomach.
This is the reason why Denamarin needs to be given on an empty stomach. It contains denosyl...

That was an excellent explanation.

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

That was an excellent explanation.

Ellie May you said it about YorkieLuv... but i will say it to you both and TLC too.
Where would I be without you guys and YT???

yes that was a great explanation. so the Heppato support and Vetri-DMG do not have to be given on an empty stomach. because i tell ya... this getting up at 4am after just a few days has really been hard on me.
As a rule I don't sleep a full night bc the girls wake me up to do their business. I am usually asleep by 11pm- samie gets me up every night at 1:30 am.. and then Sadie usually needs to go out around 3am. but not every night... then i set the alarm for 4am... and then my husband gets up at 5:30 am... the shower always wakes me up when i here him in there getting ready for work. I get up at 6:00 to feed the girls and then i leave at 7am.
I AM SOOOOO EXHAUSTED. the Heppato support is WAYYYY cheaper than 60.00 a month for the Denamarin too.

I don't know if the vet would help me with the dosage since she didn't prescribe that. SHe HATES the fact that i research EVERYHING on the computer... and she knows that i research every little thing with my girls.

If I am correct with understanding how the Heppato support and the Vetri-Dmg works by not having to be given on an empty stomach please let me know. thanks!

[Ellie May]

You are correct. The Hepatosupport and Vetri DO NOT have to be given on an empty stomach.

As for your vet, you have every right to research anything you want. Do not let her tell you otherwise. I don't want to imagine where I would be with Ellie now if her vet acted like that. Whenever liver testing comes up it is always my choice. She doesn't choose for her clients. I am very blessed to have found such a special vet though. I am sure there is one out there for you. If you aren't happy with yours then I would move on.