Bile Acid Test- vet want to now do biopsy. I am so worried

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Please have your vet contact Dr. Sharon Center. I posted her contact information for you in my post #4. She is one of, if not the, leading authorities on liver disease in the country. She developed the bile acid test. We have had numerous members on the Maltese forum I belong to contact her for advice on how to proceed after high BAT results.

Dr. Center has applied to the AKC for a grant to look for genetic markers for liver shunts in certain breeds, including Yorkies. She has also spoken to the World Congress on the subject.

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...2675&O=Generic

Dr. Center recommends that a Protein C test be done after two high BAT's. Please don't waste your time and money on any other tests until you get a Protein C test.

This is probably what I would go in your case. You might be able to get away with just supplementing. I also agree with Kalina82 that maybe your vet is just throwing things out there. A liver biopsy doesn't come first unless she is anesthesnetized for another reason... Ursodiol appears to be a fairly safe drug but why not use Denosyl? Maybe I'm missing something.

[Yorkieluv]

Ursodiol, also known as Actigall, is used in management of liver disease and according to the following article has improved patients' symptoms. It's a naturally occuring bile acid...Please scroll down to where it says Actigall to read more about it.
Actually, the whole article is very informative about liver disease and common meds/supplements...
http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00430.htm

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

This is probably what I would go in your case. You might be able to get away with just supplementing. I also agree with Kalina82 that maybe your vet is just throwing things out there. A liver biopsy doesn't come first unless she is anesthesnetized for another reason... Ursodiol appears to be a fairly safe drug but why not use Denosyl? Maybe I'm missing something.

She's already taking Denamarin which already contains Denosyl.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

She's already taking Denamarin which already contains Denosyl.

LOL...you learn somethin new everyday.

Then I would go with the Ursodiol I think.

Wellness Senior is way too high in protein (32% dry matter) but I don't think anyone would be able to tell you if one bite a day will hurt... I would not use it.

[sadiesamie]

Let me get some thoughts together. I am so overwhelmed right now. Not just bc of what we are going through. But because of all you sweet people who- once again are here to help me... give me a minute.

[Ladymom]

I swear by Marin. Lady doesn't have liver disease, but has been taking phenobarbital for eight years which damages the liver. I gave her plain milk thistle (Silybin) for years until a gal on another forum with an MVD dog told me about Marin. I believe Dr. Tobias from University of Tennessee recommended Marin to her.

http://www.entirelypets.com/marindog...utmk=137689585

[sadiesamie]

i'm sorry I got a phone call.

I am going to give Samie her Denamarin 1 hour before feeding her. I like to feed them by 6am so that they have time to digest and do their business before I leave for work @ 7 am. so i will give it to her at 5am. she usually gets me up every night to go outside potty around 1;30. i would love to give it to her then... but with the one hour before thing... I have to do what you all think is best and give it 1 hour before feeding. Does it have to be exactly one hour? can it be 3 hours before or 1 1/2 hours before feeding? Sorry to sound clueless with this but I really AM clueless. :-)
I feel like i am walking in the dark and bumping into walls everywhere... literally. I'm still trying to understand my other Yorkies issues and now this.

But -I need to spend some time reading all of the things you all sent me. I am sure i will be full of more questions. I forwared some things to work so i can read while i am there.

I have got to get to sleep. I have been up the past 3 nights so late that i actually don't feel good. running on pretty much on only 4 hours of sleep a night.
:-(

I will be back tomorrow. and if you think of anythign else- I have started checking my email in the morning for any comments that may have been left for me. :- 0

Thank you all so much for being here for me. I dont know where i'd be w/o all of you.

[sadiesamie]

oh btw- I still haven't given the Ursodiol to her yet. It's too late now bc I normally am not up this late. That has to be given every 24 hours. I don't know if i can give it to her with her Soloxine or if I should space them apart. I am always so scared to give a new med.

[Ladymom]

Here is probably more information on Ursodiol than you ever thought to ask!

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...r/a699047.html

http://www.drugs.com/pro/ursodiol.html

[Ellie May]

It needs to be given ATLEAST one hour before eating. Three hours before is probably fine. I think...

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

It needs to be given ATLEAST one hour before eating. Three hours before is probably fine. I think...

Yes, the point is just to give it on an empty stomach so that it can do it's job properly.

[sadiesamie]

I have read some of the info on the Ursodiol but i don't understand it. I read about gallbladdar and things like that.

Am I understanding this correctly?
The canned Wellness is great for them UNLESS they have liver problems.
SO, if by feeding her this and it effects her liver then it definitely means that something is wrong with her liver? Canned food just doesn't effect the liver and even if you disc use of it and then the liver goes back to normal. I think it is all starting to make sense. I am just wondering if it made her values increase so much in just a month - and while on the Demarin too. Thats why i thought at first that maybe the denamarin maybe made her value increase. but i have learned now from you that it is to help her.

Also this may not be anything to worry sick about- I would just have to supplement her diet to keep her liver functioning normal.

I am wondering if my other Yorkie Sadie should have a bile acid test now too. My husband says no- she is fine... but we don't know this bc it can happen w/o any symptoms.

If anything for peace of mind I would want a bat done on her. When we first found out about Samie's calcium oxalate crystals, I decided to have Sadie checked to with a urinalysis (they have same mothers but diff papa's) Two different litters.. it was then that we learned of Sadies Protein loss disease. I would have never know about it until we tested her.

It was during the 3 mos of testing her for various things and trying different doses of meds that I started to see her losing a lot of muscle. She got very skinny and I when i would bite her little cheeks ( i know i am crazy... LOL) It was then that i noticed she was becoming skeletal. I could see her neck bone when she was laying on the floor next to me. SO I think we caught this protein disease before it got real bad.

So that's why part of me wants to have her tested. They have some of the same blood lines so it just makes me worry. So now I also have stopped giving sadie the wellness canned food too. Just in case. I mean i was giving her more of it just bc it seemed to help her skin and allergies and the specialist said good quality protein was good for them. However- he doesn't yet know of samie's liver issues... sadie loves the wellness canned. I am sad that I can't let her have it anymore but i have to be careful.

Also- do you think it would be a good idea to give sadie a liver supplement too?

I just don't understand the Ursodiol at all. I understand the Denamarin and what it is supposed to do. (I think) :-)

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by sadiesamie

I have read some of the info on the Ursodiol but i don't understand it. I read about gallbladdar and things like that.

Am I understanding this correctly?
The canned Wellness is great for them UNLESS they have liver problems.
SO, if by feeding her this and it effects her liver then it definitely means that something is wrong with her liver? Canned food just doesn't effect the liver and even if you disc use of it and then the liver goes back to normal. I think it is all starting to make sense. I am just wondering if it made her values increase so much in just a month - and while on the Demarin too. Thats why i thought at first that maybe the denamarin maybe made her value increase. but i have learned now from you that it is to help her.

Also this may not be anything to worry sick about- I would just have to supplement her diet to keep her liver functioning normal.

I am wondering if my other Yorkie Sadie should have a bile acid test now too. My husband says no- she is fine... but we don't know this bc it can happen w/o any symptoms.

If anything for peace of mind I would want a bat done on her. When we first found out about Samie's calcium oxalate crystals, I decided to have Sadie checked to with a urinalysis (they have same mothers but diff papa's) Two different litters.. it was then that we learned of Sadies Protein loss disease. I would have never know about it until we tested her.

It was during the 3 mos of testing her for various things and trying different doses of meds that I started to see her losing a lot of muscle. She got very skinny and I when i would bite her little cheeks ( i know i am crazy... LOL) It was then that i noticed she was becoming skeletal. I could see her neck bone when she was laying on the floor next to me. SO I think we caught this protein disease before it got real bad.

So that's why part of me wants to have her tested. They have some of the same blood lines so it just makes me worry. So now I also have stopped giving sadie the wellness canned food too. Just in case. I mean i was giving her more of it just bc it seemed to help her skin and allergies and the specialist said good quality protein was good for them. However- he doesn't yet know of samie's liver issues... sadie loves the wellness canned. I am sad that I can't let her have it anymore but i have to be careful.

Also- do you think it would be a good idea to give sadie a liver supplement too?

I just don't understand the Ursodiol at all. I understand the Denamarin and what it is supposed to do. (I think) :-)

the only thing i know about actigal is that is suppose to thin the bile that is processed through the gall bladder. I'm sorry i can't be of more help.

[sadiesamie]

The Ursodiol did not come with any instructions... just to give every 24 hrs. Do you know if this can be given on an empty stomach or with other meds?

I keep thinking things like: I wonder if the Soloxine has caused issues with the liver? Or maybe the Potassium Citrate Granuales?

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by sadiesamie

The Ursodiol did not come with any instructions... just to give every 24 hrs. Do you know if this can be given on an empty stomach or with other meds?

I keep thinking things like: I wonder if the Soloxine has caused issues with the liver? Or maybe the Potassium Citrate Granuales?

i think if you keeping thinking of all the "what ifs" your going to drive yourself crazy. It could be NOTHING that you have done or given her, she just could be predisposed to getting it.

while the people here are GREAT and can offer you lots of information based on their experiences with meds and their vets you really should take her to the specialist. every dog is different and what works for one may not work for another.