Originally Posted by FlDebra

I think that is still a question that is very much in debate. Sure the present owners/breeders may know that both parents are Yorkies but somewhere back in the line, there could have been a mistake. So, the DNA testing reveals the parents are verified, maybe even the grandparents, but there could be a cross-breeding mistake decades back in the line that is just now surfacing. The DNA testing does not verify that the parents or the grandparents do not have some mixed-genes themselves.

I know from looking at some Yorkies even with traditional colors that there were some mistakes back in the line somewhere. That is why it took me quite a while to find the puppies I did buy. If a Yorkie has a Schnauzer muzzle for instance, chances are great that somewhere, maybe several generations ago, a Schnauzer got into the room when it was not suppose to. Same thing with poodle coats and different body styles. So, it is not a stretch for me to think if the colors are not right (parti), then there was probably a dog with white, allowed to get cozy at the wrong time. Maybe all the puppies looked Yorkie and the breeder decided her planned breeding was all that "took." But somewhere down the line, suddenly white turns up. When it does, no one may even know about the old accident that was the cause.

I follow your genetics example but I don't think that is the way it would work with Yorkie's hair color -- even with my limited H.S. genetics background -- your example would only be for one solid color traits or something like blue eyes vs brown eyes -- not for the variation of color in coats we are talking about. You might want to read the example explaining the piebald traits listed at this site: http://members.aol.com/CYorkie/BiewerTriColor.html -- it seems to be more specific and makes some very clear deductions.

This is very interesting -- I think I could really get into studying the genetics of the breed. Weird, I know!

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Alliec1 is completely correct in her description of how the genetics work. She only used two of the possible colors of course. Since the Parti color shows up occadsionally there have to me more than just the two possibilities.

She just simplified it, because genetics gets very complicated.

No one is arguing that these dogs were derived from a variety of dogs, and I suppose it is possible that some where in it's far distant ancestry that there might have been a small furry white dog of some sort, maybe even a Westie. ..

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Why do you want to argue?

Because you didn't get her point.

No -- she is not completely correct. I did not say she was wrong just that it did not work exactly that way when it applies to multi-color hair. Simplified, it really does not apply to what we are talking about -- multi-colors NOT just a BB/bb type situation. IF it was only a matter of BB/bb, then we would not see the completely out of character WHITE coat mixed in. That is the whole issue, not whether the dark color will be blue or black or whether blue or black is recessive or dominant but that there is an entirely different gene thrown in to the mix.

That is what I said. I said, and she said it was a very simplified version. I said there are other possibilities, she just used a very simplified example. There has to be a parti colored gene in there somewhere but it could have come from way back 100 years ago. Does a maltese even carry a parti colored gene. If it does then why are Maltese always white?.

And she did argue that the dogs were derived from a variety of dogs. She said and I quote, "Mutt implies cross breeding from other breeds- these animals are all yorkie. Some people are probably not understanding that the pari gene did not come from outbreeding with some other dog, such as a Maltese."

Well if you want to go that route then all yorkies are mutts because they all came from mixed ancestry. But once the mix found it's way to becoming a breed of it's own and was given it's own name, and people were only breeding yorkie to yorkie it ceased being a "mutt." All dogs are a mix of some sort way back before they started keeping records.

And the parti-gene DID come from another dog -- not the Yorkie. That is the point. Maybe that is what "some people are probably not understanding."

What makes you so sure of that? What evidence do you have to prove that? Why are you so sure that it is not part of the original yorkie make up? There could be a lot of yorkies out there carrying the parti gene but untill they are mated to another yorkie who also carries the gene, it will not surface. That is why the gene will show up in a championship line, because the breeders of champions are usually the ones who do the in breeding or close line breeding and then gene has to show up on both sides before it will surface.

I am sure you are very proud of your Parti-colors -- you have every right to be. Maybe you are personalizing this just a bit as others are trying to understand the details. It is sometimes difficult to stay focused on the science, the facts when something as passionate as dog ownership is involved. I certainly have nothing against them as another breed of dogs. To me they look more like a shihtzu than a Yorkie, but if they are their own breed, then that is great for them. I would never buy a Yorkie from someone who is also breeding for the parti-color. I would worry that somewhere the white would mysteriously crop up. I hope that if it does become its own breed, people like you are taking care and attention to detail will prevail over so many trying to capitalize on a fad and slip something in to artifically come up with a parti-color. The DNA science will have to get better to keep these unscrupulous tactics from ruining what you and others are trying to accomplish. Good luck to you!

Originally Posted by FlDebra

QUOTE: Does a maltese even carry a parti colored gene. If it does then why are Maltese always white?.]QUOTE

It is not really a parti-colored gene. It is more complicated than that. IT is a recessive white series, but there are variations that produce a range of color from white spotting to all white. It depends on the variation of alleles. The reason I was saying that the previous simplified example did not really apply is because it is based on the idea that there is just dominant and recessive and dominant wins. With the white gene in dog's coats it is an exception -- in this case incomplete dominance. One site likens it to paint mixing giving the example of a flower where the red and white strains mix to produce pink. In the dogs case, it is not a matter of muddying the color, it is a combination of how much white appears. It goes on to explain recessive white series is complicated even more by modifier genes that increase or decrease the amount of white on the dogs. So -- yes the maltese has the gene to ensure it's white coat -- it is not a parti-colored gene -- it is a white one, but I am sure that there are much more complicated versions as well. To see all the possible combinations of alleles to produce everything from the all white, to small amounts of white spotting would be interesting. But to see all the possible combinations including the potential modifying genes would be amazing.

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

I have a question? I know alot of my pups are born with white on their chest, some more than others. Are all yorkies born with a little white on the chest and it disappears after they get older? How many of you raise pups that have this white patch and it disappears? If born with it then isnt that white in the coat? It may not stay but they were born with it.

Originally Posted by Alliec1

I think what everyone is just trying to get at is how genetics work. I'll take a crack at it, as that is going to be my major and I am in AP biology.

First of all, I think calling partis 'mutts' is incredibly rude. Mutt implies cross breeding from other breeds- these animals are all yorkie. Some people are probably not understanding that the pari gene did not come from outbreeding with some other dog, such as a Maltese.

Now, for simplicity's sake(incredibly simplified, actually....), let's just say that a breed of dog has 2 genes that it carries that determine its color- black and blue. We'll call them BB for black, and bb for blue. Now, BB is the dominant trait..meaning that it will mask the bb trait if it is present at all in the genes. Possible combinations are BB= black dog, bb=blue dog, and Bb=black dog. If you breed a dog with BB genes to a dog with bb genes, you will always get black dogs, since the puppies recieve one half of their genes from either parent. If you breed a Bb and a BB, the same thing happens because B masks all b. Now, if you breed a Bb to a Bb, you have a 50% chance of the bb coming together to make a blue dog. And finally a bb to a bb will always give blue dogs because there is no B present to mask the b.

With the DNA testing, what the poster was trying to get was that DNA is unique. Sure, it currently will not tell you whether its owner is a Great Dane or a Yorkie, but the Great Dane will not have the same DNA as the Yorkie. It's like a fingerprint (pawprint! hehe) So, if you test all puppies, you can find out who what their parent's DNA is. By finding this DNA and comparing it to the DNA held by the supposed parent dogs, it is either a match or it is not. And, since DNA is usually traced back through a maternal lineage for both parentys, you can tell which dogs are related and which are not.

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

Yes, the DNA will tell you who the parents are. That's the purpose of the specific test used in partentage evaluation. But if I submitted a DNA sample from a Yorkie and a Maltese, as of now, no one would be able to identify what breeds the samples came from. It is my understanding that a test that will be able to specifically determine the BREED as well as parentage will soon be available.

And in many cases, with the Biewers that is not an issue. But to back up, I have been breeding for over 30 years. And there are many, many breeders who have equal or more experience and ALL

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

Jeanie,

You keep on talking about the parti's coming from championship lines. What lines are you referring to? Do you have pedigrees from some of the earlier parti's? Do they originate with the Nikko line?

It is my opinion that a Papillon most likely was used to give the piebald or spotted pattern. I have seen Maltese/Yorkie crosses and none were ever spotted.

Originally Posted by Toby'sMama

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK
The Biewers and the partis are basically the same dog, just from two different lines. But the parti gene exists in both lines ad that is what has caused the parti coloring.


YES!!! Germany has just kept records and set forth standards for 20 years now. They all have only YORKIE heritage.

I just wanted to add to this post just a bit... Although the Biewers and Partis both carry the same piebald gene, they are not the same dog. The difference is in the standards. (as well as bloodlines originating in Germany) The Partis do not have any set standard, while the Biewer does.

As Kathy has pointed out already, the Biewer standards are the same as the Yorkshire Terrier standards, with the exception of the colors and the tail. Also, regarding their coats, faces, size, etc., I have seen the same differences in the Biewers as in the traditional Yorkies. Some have cottony coats, some have silk... some have smaller faces, some have longer and larger ones, some are 2 and 3 lbs, and some are 10, 11, and up. Some have ears that stand up, and some are floppy... There are good and bad examples of the breed coming over from Germany... and also irresponsible breeding here in the states are contributing to a whole variety of problems being bred into the lines. Just like the irresponsible breeding of our beloved traditional Yorkies. Unfortunately, greedy people do not care about the betterment of ANY breed.

In my opinion, when and if either the Parti and/or the Biewer gets a chance to compete in AKC Confirmation shows -- I don't see them being judged against the traditional Yorkies until they go into Best of Group. There's a long way to go before we get to this point -- and many "close-minded" people fighting against it who haven't done any "open-minded" research on these beautiful colored dogs!

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

Jeanie,

You keep on talking about the parti's coming from championship lines. What lines are you referring to? Do you have pedigrees from some of the earlier parti's? Do they originate with the Nikko line?

It is my opinion that a Papillon most likely was used to give the piebald or spotted pattern. I have seen Maltese/Yorkie crosses and none were ever spotted.

Originally Posted by Alliec1

As I said when I gave the gene example, I was oversimplifying it greatly to explain it to the people that don't understand why a dog can have a gene and it doesn't show up. I didn't get into incomplete dominance or co-dominance because that would be a HUGE can of worms. There are also instances where other coat genes (there are separate genes for color that intermingle with each other) mask even dominant genes, such as the case with tan/gold coloring. In the end, everything works together, but in order to get anything close to looking like a parti, you must have the correct set of genes. Therefore, the parti gene is actually a set of genes that interact with another set to create the coloring. It's kind of like a rock-paper-scissors situation. Because the overly dominant genes are blue/black and tan/gold, that is why they are seen so often, but it does not mean that they were not there to 'begin with' (take 'begin with ' as whatever you may, as someone said, all dogs originated as crosses.)

For instance, I bet many of you didn't know that the dominant gene for humans is to have SIX toes. Yes, dominant. So, why doesn't it show up very often? It is because the majority of humans are carriers of the recessive 5-toe gene. If somebody with 5-toes would ever have kids with a 6-toer, 6-toed kids would have a 50% chance or better of showing up.
Did we outcross with another species to get this 'messed up' trait? Of course not. It's just not prolific enough in the gene pool to show up. The same happens with parti coloring.

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

No matter how they got here, Biewer's are certainly here. And, for the most part, I think that the yorkie show people are starting to accept that fact. But what we DO NOT want is for the two breeds to be shown together or for the Biewers or parti's to carry the Yorkshire name.

Many of us are very willing to help you in any way we can start to get records, etc. in order so you can apply to AKC to be shown in the Misc. class and go for full recognition. But my question to you would be, how are you going to handle the differences between parti's and Biewers? And from that group you need to weed out those that are cross breeding. Are you going to be able to unite all breeders of blue/white yorkies so together you can go forward as one?

Originally Posted by daisy mae06

I have a Question? Why is it that Cockerspaniels come in black, tan , and partie ? So not knowing a thing about this just learning :) Did they always come that way or did the parties have to convence the other to let them join? If they did why is it so hard to let parties and brewiers be a color with the regular yorkies??????????????

Originally Posted by red98vett

They ARE adorable - but to come and sell them calling them rare is kind of playing on peoples desires ...

why not do a post and just state what they are and the prices in the For Sale section ?? We have lots of threads about the parti and biewers here - there are people who love the colors - as I do - but when I see someone calling a dog RARE.... it just sends me a red flag that the seller is going to charge way more than what the price should really be.

I'm not being mean - just offering an opinion ! :) You have beautiful dogs

Originally Posted by partiyorkielove

I have seen them as much 7,000 but they tend to run between 4 to 5 thousand.

Originally Posted by partiyorkielove

mind you i bought on line.dont know if that matters.

Originally Posted by red98vett

:) I understand - you can do a search on the site if you want to see average prices - there's a blue bar running across the screen with a SEARCH function ...and there are quite a few people here who have parties and biewers so they may be able to offer some pricing help for you.


When you said you bought them online - are you saying they're selling for 7 thou ?? holy cow - that's NUTS :) The ones I've seen are selling for approx 3,500.00 which is pretty high too when you look at the 'big' picture....I can't believe the prices of small breeds these days ...I'm glad I got my girls when I did :D

Originally Posted by partiyorkielove

well im new to yorkie talk and at the time i posted i didnt know there was a place for sale ad not to mention i wanted to get the word out there about parti yorkies because i have had so many people ask if they are mix including on yorkie talk. I understand there are people on here that have more knowledge than me! rare to me was just a way for me to say there not as well known as your black&tan. if i was using rare to try to boost ability, i would have said something more like rare and exotic. just wondering what do you feel a parti should go for?