Sorry tried to add to my last post but was over the time limit.

I have no idea who Gloria Lipman is, but I do know that extensive testing was done before the Akc registered these dogs and they are pure yorkies

The Biewers and the partis are basically the same dog, just from two different lines. But the parti gene exists in both lines ad that is what has caused the parti coloring.

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I'm not saying that this is the case here, but you could have a maltese sire and yorkie dam, DNA test both parents and the pups would be approved. All that testing does is prove who the sire and dam are, not what breed they are. So in the case of possible cross breeds, its usless. There is new testing that will hopefully be able to determine breeds involved. But it' won't help with cross breeds that for many generations have been bred back to purebred yorkies.

he is beautiful Jeanie WOW.

There is no health issue here. these dogs are proven. And since they are closely related, the fhealth issues that other yorkies have may not even show up in this line unless someone mixes in a line with health issues.

I'd like to see the mixed breeding stopped anf only allow partis to be bred to other partis, before there health defects are bred in.

If they made them a separate breed, then people would not be able to mix them with other yorkies.

The Biewer standard states 7 pounds and under. Yes, there are larger Biewers just as there are Standard yorkies. That is why my one male that I imported has been neutered and is looking for a pet home, he is just too big. We also have the opposite problem, with some of the dogs not getting big enough to breed. I have a tiny female that is just 2 pounds 13 oz at 7 months. She will probably never get big enough to breed. I will not intentionally breed the tinies. Will I occasionally get some in my litters? Without a doubt. Yes, the head of the Biewer is what the head of North American Yorkies use to look like. It is a terrier and should have a terrier head. The judges that have examined my dogs so far have commented on nice coats. It does seem that the Biewers have a bit more hair than the yorkies here, but that does not mean that they are not silk. So far the one litter that I have whelped here was sold mainly for pets, as less than half had the qualities that I though should be retained. I realize that I have much to learn about this breed, but I hope I can always put the welfare of the dogs and the breed first before the $$$

If the sire is a registered yorkie and the dam is a registered yorkie and the DNA testing proves that these puppies came from this particulr sire and this particular dam then how could it possibly be a mixed breed. That was the purpose of the DNA testing. Plus the fact that these dogs came from reputable long time AKC registered breeders of show dogs.

These people did not just pop up out of the blue with these rare colored dogs and ask the Akc to register them. There has been a long on going relationship and they came from champion lines.

YES!!! Germany has just kept records and set forth standards for 20 years now. They all have only YORKIE heritage.

Well it may take 20 years for the partis to find their own space. But i don't believe they are going to go away. I am looking forward to being one of the early breeders of these dogs.

All breeds had to start somewhere, and I'm guessing that hundreds of years ago the batlle was just as great.

I'm going to try to find out how many breeds were registered 200 years ago as compared to today.

The DNA from a Maltese or a Yorkie or a Great Dane looks the same on paper. Again, all the testing does is identify the parents, not the breeds from which they came.

And the mismarks DID just pop up out of the blue. The other rare colors that are being sold as rare are just genetic screw ups. The all gold, born blue, chocolate, etc. are either genetic defects (brown and born blue), thow backs or mutts.

I feel badly for those who do spend large amounts of money for a dog that are not either healty yorkies or even purebred yorkies.

Information on Biewers.

http://www.biewers.com/?gclid=CNaniI...FR1EWAodRSuhsw

I found this sitre, thought some of you might find it interesting.

So form reading this article, they are recognized as a breed separate from yorkies and can no longer be mixed with yorkies even though that is where they oiginated.

My guess is, the partis will eventually go the same route.

How can the parent be a maltese if it is registered as a yorkie from a reputable AKC registerd show breeder?

I realise there are people who might register a maltese as a yorkie and then mix the two breeds, but these are long time show breeders and they did not just test one generation, they tested many generations.

I find it interesting that you feel the AKC is that irresponsible to just take anyones word for it.

They did not just pop up out of the blue. these breeders were established yorkie show breeders long before the the parti gene showed up.

Are you also then saying the same thing of the biewers?

Please do more in depth research before making such allegations.

Biewers CAN be bred to a standard yorkie with permission from the registering club. Many Biewer owners feel this is not a good practice and will only breed Biewer to Biewer. This is one of the major disputes between some of the Biewer clubs in the USA. My question about breeding to traditional yorkies is this: Are we really wanting the smaller faces and other characteristics that have been bred for in the US? The bitch in my avatar is registered as a yorkie in Germany. She has a Biewer mother and a yorkie dad. She will have a 50/50 chance of Biewer puppies and yorkie puppies when bred to a Biewer male.

Thank you. I can't wait to get my little girl.

I love your avatar. did you go to PetCo

You have a long road ahead of you but you need to unite with other parti breeders, find out from AKC or UKC how to establish your stud books, and get your records in order so you can become recognized as a breed. I do hope that you'll not affiliate yourselves with any of the lesser registries as they aren't credible or legitimate, they're just money making scams.

I only speak for myself, but this is what I hope for those that are interested in Biewers or Parti's. And it's not an easy task ahead of you. But as a yorkie breeder I wish you the best. Again, and I think I speak for many yorkie breeders, we only ask that you separate yourselves from the Yorkshire Terrier breed.

I can see where that would be an issue. And once it is registered as a breed of it's own perhaps it should no longer be mixed. In mixing you might end up breeding back in some of the health issues that have developed in the traditional yorkies.

Jeanie,

I'm merely telling you that the frequent sire DNA testing doesn't identify breeds. Just individual dogs..... So using frequent sire DNA tests to give credibility to the parti's lineage isn't possible.

This is not the frequent sire DNA testing.

This is DNA testing of all the puppies and the sire and the dam to prove that these puppies came from the registered yorkie that the breeder claimed that it came from.

Both the mother and the father and the grandparents on both sides were DNA tested. To prove that the pedigree was acurate.

There was very extensive testing done before they would register these dogs.

This has nothing to do with the frequent sire DNA testing.

Jeanie,

There is no such DNA test that exits with AKC at this point.. If you have been told otherwise by those that sold you your breeding stock then you have been misinformed.

To clarify, the AKC DNA tests determine 1. voluntary profiling 2. frequently used sire 3. semen collection requirement 4. parentage evaluation (determine who the parents are)
There is no test that determines what breed is being tested.

Yes there is. It is the same testing they do with humans to determine parentage. They test both parents and they test the puppies and they can tell if these puppies came from these parents. Just like they can with people.

They cannot tell what breed the parents are from the DNA.

But if the parents are both registered yorkies and the grand parents are all registered yorkies and they are registered by a long tiem reputasble show breeder with an established relationship with the AKC, then you can be reasonably certain that the dog are who the the breeder claims that they are.

I'm am sure that the AKC would not have done all of this for just any breeder.

Please do your research on these dogs, as I have done. I have not been misinformed, and these breeders are VERY reputable breeders in good standing with the AKC with a very long line of chasmpions.

In fact if you study this you will find that most of these abnormalities are derived from show champions, because those are the dogs that are inbred or closely line bred and that is when and how these recessive genes surface.

I give up................................

Jeanie K
You are absolutely correct...so is the other poster.
IN THE SENSE that, w/o the paperwork from the AKC vouching on behalf of the paperwork in question regarding the purity of a lineage you wouldn't be able to tell if they were Yorkies or not, even though they're registered as such.

So, no, you cannot tell as of yet-through the AKC, there are private organizations that do this now however!-anything beyond whom is related to whom, but not what breed they are or are supposed to be. That's why your pedigree should match up when the DNA profiles are done. If not, then someone on the list is there that doesn't belong. ;)

Make sense? You're both right and arguing about different things.

Thank You. I agree. If the original dogs were registered by just anyone, the pedigrees would not necessarily be credible. But coming from a long time breeder in good standing, you can be reasonably sure that the dogs are who the breeder says they are.

But the AKC did do extensive testing on all the parents and grandparents, not just the sire.

So when buying these dogs, it is more important than ever, that you thoroughly research the breeder.

Thank you . We did the santa paws at petsmart today and had a blast :)And the price was right and good charity too.

Good Match

No hard feelings. ( I looked for a hand shake smilie but couldn't find one)

I hope this thread was educational and informative to all who have followed it.

Wow...I'm sure alot of breeders with ties to the "lesser registries" as you so boldy describe them are feeling mighty offended that you've deemed their programs as "scams"...particularly when you know nothing about them.

There are scammers breeding in EVERY registry, including AKC and UKC...I've seen it first hand.

Heres a site I saved when I was researching Aussies a few years ago on DNA It may help some to understand it.
Mythunderstanding DNA

Thanks for the link!
 

Thanks for that link -- I think I understand the limits of DNA testing much better now.

I think what everyone is just trying to get at is how genetics work. I'll take a crack at it, as that is going to be my major and I am in AP biology.

First of all, I think calling partis 'mutts' is incredibly rude. Mutt implies cross breeding from other breeds- these animals are all yorkie. Some people are probably not understanding that the pari gene did not come from outbreeding with some other dog, such as a Maltese.

Now, for simplicity's sake(incredibly simplified, actually....), let's just say that a breed of dog has 2 genes that it carries that determine its color- black and blue. We'll call them BB for black, and bb for blue. Now, BB is the dominant trait..meaning that it will mask the bb trait if it is present at all in the genes. Possible combinations are BB= black dog, bb=blue dog, and Bb=black dog. If you breed a dog with BB genes to a dog with bb genes, you will always get black dogs, since the puppies recieve one half of their genes from either parent. If you breed a Bb and a BB, the same thing happens because B masks all b. Now, if you breed a Bb to a Bb, you have a 50% chance of the bb coming together to make a blue dog. And finally a bb to a bb will always give blue dogs because there is no B present to mask the b.

With the DNA testing, what the poster was trying to get was that DNA is unique. Sure, it currently will not tell you whether its owner is a Great Dane or a Yorkie, but the Great Dane will not have the same DNA as the Yorkie. It's like a fingerprint (pawprint! hehe) So, if you test all puppies, you can find out who what their parent's DNA is. By finding this DNA and comparing it to the DNA held by the supposed parent dogs, it is either a match or it is not. And, since DNA is usually traced back through a maternal lineage for both parentys, you can tell which dogs are related and which are not.

I think that is still a question that is very much in debate. Sure the present owners/breeders may know that both parents are Yorkies but somewhere back in the line, there could have been a mistake. So, the DNA testing reveals the parents are verified, maybe even the grandparents, but there could be a cross-breeding mistake decades back in the line that is just now surfacing. The DNA testing does not verify that the parents or the grandparents do not have some mixed-genes themselves.

I know from looking at some Yorkies even with traditional colors that there were some mistakes back in the line somewhere. That is why it took me quite a while to find the puppies I did buy. If a Yorkie has a Schnauzer muzzle for instance, chances are great that somewhere, maybe several generations ago, a Schnauzer got into the room when it was not suppose to. Same thing with poodle coats and different body styles. So, it is not a stretch for me to think if the colors are not right (parti), then there was probably a dog with white, allowed to get cozy at the wrong time. Maybe all the puppies looked Yorkie and the breeder decided her planned breeding was all that "took." But somewhere down the line, suddenly white turns up. When it does, no one may even know about the old accident that was the cause.

I follow your genetics example but I don't think that is the way it would work with Yorkie's hair color -- even with my limited H.S. genetics background -- your example would only be for one solid color traits or something like blue eyes vs brown eyes -- not for the variation of color in coats we are talking about. You might want to read the example explaining the piebald traits listed at this site: http://members.aol.com/CYorkie/BiewerTriColor.html -- it seems to be more specific and makes some very clear deductions.

This is very interesting -- I think I could really get into studying the genetics of the breed. Weird, I know!