there is a huge difference between gold and Tan. My Kamikaze is tan and has some gold because of where it is, it reminds me of pee pee stans when compared to the tan he has. Since i have one that has gold coloring I can tell you the difference is huge

[QUOTE=yorkiekist;1348448]Has anyone ever studied yorkie genetics? The true yorkie does not carry the piebald gene. The only way they could have gotten it was through mix breeding.(probably maltese or shih-tzu) This, no doubt, happen generations ago and would be extremely difficult to trace. [QUOTE]

Since no one has ever DNA'd the unpapered, terrier type dogs who were used to begin this breed, how can you say that the true yorkie doesn't carry the piebald gene? What makes a true yorkie true? God did not create the Yorkshire terrier, man did, by using countless numbers of dogs - dogs without pedigrees, or traceable heritage. These founding dogs had certain characteristics that their owners wanted to reproduce and improve on. I'm sure some people were more conscious about what they let their dogs breed to but I'm guessing that many of the founding dogs had the run of the land and "fell in love" with whom ever they wished.

So, if you can walk into a dog shelter and tell me the exact genetic makeup of all the unpapered dogs in that kennel, well, do you think you could also give me the winning number for the next multi million dollar lotto or tell me when we will have world peace? ;-)

[QUOTE] There was a show breeder that got piebald puppies and after thinking about it, determined there was a mix in the pedigree and had the dogs spayed and neutered. Its funny that 99.9 percent of the show breeders do not come up with color faults, and its mostly the back yard breeders that do. [QUOTE]

If the majority of the show breeders feel the way the show breeders in this thread do, than it's more likely that 99% of the show breeders won't admit when they come up with color faults.

[QUOTE] To the person who has Nikko everywhere in the pedigree: Did you personally get the dog from Gloria Lipman? I have never heard of Nikko producing odd colored puppies. I have never heard a bad thing about that kennel. [QUOTE]

I purchased my guy through Summit Yorkies, they are one of the two california parti breeders who had numerous litters and generations of dogs, DNA'd in order for AKC to allow the parti color to be registered. Summit Yorkies had the first AKC Registered parti yorkie (from this Nikko line). My boy was promoted by Summit Yorkies when he was about 10 weeks old, he flew out to VA at 12 weeks. Looking at the copy of the registration application that I made before sending off to AKC, Breeder and Litter owners were Starla Harris and Gloria Lipman using a Mt. Israel Rd, Escondido, CA mailing address. Both ladies signed the paperwork and transfered the dog directly to me.

Though Nikkos kennels doesn't have any parti colored yorkies pictured on their website (and I don't know if she owns a parti) there are a number of photos of pups with big white chests (parti carriers).

I believe that most of us have studied the yorkie genetics. How do you know that there wasn't a piebald gene in the original yorkie makeup? There is no way to know that. True they think it possibly came from a maltese, but the yorkie was made from so many different breeds who is to say that one of those dogs did not carry the gene.

Records were spotty way back then, many of the people who bred them couldn't even read or write.

I am not sure on this but I believe that the first known parti was born to Gloria Lipmann herself. It is no secret that they came from her line.

Before the partis were accepted by the AKC, they were DNA's extensively and it was proven to their satisfaction that they did indeed come from the parents that they were said to have come freom and that those parents were purebred registered yhorkshire terriers. The line that I urchased fro are descendents of Ch Rolls Royce Ashley. He sired the firdst registered parti color Nikko's Mickey Spillane.

Now if he had not come from the Nikko line, I doubt that they would have allowed the Nikko name to be used.

It is untrue that it is mostly backyard breeders that came up with the original parti coloreds. Small hobby breeders and Byb breeders are the ones who are breeding them now, but some of the original parti coloreds came from Champion lines.

I am sure that there are many parti coloreds out there that were produced through mixed breeding, which is why one has to be extra careful when they buy them. You have to know the breeder, but that is true with traditional colored yorkies also.

I've done my home work, I know what I am talking about or I would not have taken a stand. I don't argue unless I know I am right.

It is true that the show breeders but a lot of time and money into their dogs, and I am not taking that away from them, I am only asking that they respect my right to do the same thing with my partis in an effort to further develop the dogs as a breed of their own.

My hope is to see the beautiful silky flowing coat in black and white and tan. Not all non show breeders are disreputable and irresponsible, and if they allowed us to show our dogs, then maybe we would.

They yorkie breed itself is just a hodge podge mix so there is no way of knowing which dog carried the gene because there is no way of knowing which dogs were used to make up the breed.

When they first started the breed, they were not after the long silky coat with a blue coat and tan face, and not all of them had that. they just wanted a small dog.

It was only after the aristocrats got ahold of them and started breeding for specific traits that those traits were developed. that is one of the reasons why there are so many different sizes and coat textures. They are a hodge podge of genes and any gene can be thrown at any time.

The standard has been changed several times over the years to accomodate the desire of the people.

I'd like to elaborate a little bit more on this, and suggest that it is possible that not every yorkie was made up of the same mix of dogs.

One guy mixed a few dogs together and got a smaller dog, another guy did the same thing but with different dogs. Eventually they started breeding their dogs together and producing the yorkie breed. So it is possible that not every original line had the same makeup of dogs.

Here is the way that I think and hope it will go.

After there are enough interested people, the parti breeders will start to show or compare their dogs amoung themselves. A club will be formed.

Through the comparing, it will be determined which color pattern and coat textures etc are the most desired amd standards will be set.

When it is firmly established, standards have been set and the desired traits become more predictable, and a name has been selected for the breed they will begin to petition AKC for the right to show these dogs under their new name.

I have no idea what it takes, but I'm guessing if enough people and enough money is behind it, AKC will allow it.

It is rather amusing that the YTCA feels that they can exclude these dogs because they are the wrong color, while at the same time denying that they are yorkies.

If they aren't yorkies then they should be able to be developed into a breed of their own.

In the beginning these dogs were shown along with Scotch Terriers, then, because their hair split in the middle, they were distinguished from other Scotch Terriers as "broken Haired Scotch Terriers" . Then, because the breed was so improved in Yorkshire, a reporter suggested that they be called Yorkshire Terriers, and the name stuck.

It might serve you well to contact the AKC, just for interest sake to find out what is all required to have a new breed recognized. There is no such thing as 'petitioning' AKC or Canadian Kennel Club for that matter here in Canada. There are certain criteria that must be met, records over many years that must be kept and once everything is in place, a submission by the new breed club to the AKC along with the appropriate fee. Here in Canada a new breed submission is also voted on by the members in good standing of the Canadian Kennel Club before it is recognized. These are members of ALL breeds not just the ones for the new breed.
Or if you know someone who is a fancier of a breed recently recognized, ask them what they went through. The Toy Fox Terrier comes to mind as that breed was recognized only last year in Canada and a few years ago in AKC.
Then you might understand what a parent Club for any breed is and what their role is.
You can't walk into an operating theater and tell a surgeon how to do his/her job. You can't stand on the outside of the registered purebred world and tell us how to do it. Get involved and learn.

[QUOTE=Pinehaven;1348590][QUOTE=yorkiekist;1348448]Has anyone ever studied yorkie genetics? The true yorkie does not carry the piebald gene. The only way they could have gotten it was through mix breeding.(probably maltese or shih-tzu) This, no doubt, happen generations ago and would be extremely difficult to trace. [QUOTE]

Since no one has ever DNA'd the unpapered, terrier type dogs who were used to begin this breed, how can you say that the true yorkie doesn't carry the piebald gene? What makes a true yorkie true? God did not create the Yorkshire terrier, man did, by using countless numbers of dogs - dogs without pedigrees, or traceable heritage. These founding dogs had certain characteristics that their owners wanted to reproduce and improve on. I'm sure some people were more conscious about what they let their dogs breed to but I'm guessing that many of the founding dogs had the run of the land and "fell in love" with whom ever they wished.

So, if you can walk into a dog shelter and tell me the exact genetic makeup of all the unpapered dogs in that kennel, well, do you think you could also give me the winning number for the next multi million dollar lotto or tell me when we will have world peace? ;-)

[QUOTE] There was a show breeder that got piebald puppies and after thinking about it, determined there was a mix in the pedigree and had the dogs spayed and neutered. Its funny that 99.9 percent of the show breeders do not come up with color faults, and its mostly the back yard breeders that do. [QUOTE]

If the majority of the show breeders feel the way the show breeders in this thread do, than it's more likely that 99% of the show breeders won't admit when they come up with color faults.

[QUOTE] To the person who has Nikko everywhere in the pedigree: Did you personally get the dog from Gloria Lipman? I have never heard of Nikko producing odd colored puppies. I have never heard a bad thing about that kennel. A breeder cannot admit to something that did not happen. I still have never had and never known any of my show breeder friends that have had a parti colour of any sort.
Dna's currently only will tell you who the parents aren't if there was an oops. It won't tell you if there was an oops further back to where the Dna samples were taken.

Yorkie Genetics
 

Genetics of the YOrkie. I posted this once it was ignored I'll try it again.
http://members.aol.com/CYorkie/BiewerTriColor.html

The parti color has been popping up in our breed for many, many years - since the early days of the breed. Some were public knowledge but many others were kept hush, hush.

According to Alex Gesmundo of Summit Yorkies, she bred the first fully AKC registered and recognized “Parti-Color Yorkshire Terrier."

If and When the time comes that parti breeders are ready to take that step, I am sure we will learn all that we need to know. When it becomes necessary those who are behind it will get involved and learn

No one is trying to tell anyone how to do anything. Well except for you trying to tell me how to do things.

I just said this is what I hope for in regards to the parti colored yorkies.

As for the parent club, if they claim that the parti coloreds aren't even yorkies, how can the YTCA be their parent club.

Where there is a will, there is a way. I am sure many things have taken place within the AKC that naysayers have said would/could never happen.

I know that there is a lot involved, but nothing is impossible.

Why do you personally have a problem with that. or with me for that matter? Why do you even care if they are developed into a breed of their own? they are beautiful wonderful little dogs, that there appears to be a whole lot of interest in, so why should they be left to fade into obscurity?

They pose no threat to the traditional yorkies and they are no threat to you personally. So what is your problem?

Lorraine, what breeder are you referring to, that isn't admitting to something that did not happen?

Never say never ... you never heard that the Nikkos lines produced parti, so if that show breeder produced parti (and you were unaware) why do you feel that there aren't more (that you're unaware of).

Just because a yorkie is Blue and tan and has 10 generations of champions,
doesn't mean there there are no "oops" in their bloodlines ... just means that the "oops" hasn't displayed itself yet.

Just because someone posts something on the internet, does not make it gospel. No one knows for sure exdfactly which dogs were used to make up the dogs that were used to creat the Yorkshire Terrier breed. Most of thoe early founders were unregistered mixed breeds.

There is no way possible that anyone could know for certain tht there was not a piebald gene in the mix.

Back in the early 1860's the maltese and the yorkshire terriers were both shown in the same class as broken haired scottish terriers. it wasn't until 1864 that the Maltese were given a class of there own.

keeping that in mind, it is very possible, and more likely than not, that the maltese and the yorkshire terriers were bred together as Broken haired Scottish Terriers.

Or that no one is owning up to it. In the past show breeders were closely scrutinized, and if their Champion dog threw an off colored gene, they wuld have killed the pup and denied it's existence rather than to have the word get out.

I ssume that todays breeders would not kill the pup, but they would surely keep it a secret if they felt that it meant they had to neuter their champion dog.

Not all of them would do the responible thing and have the dog neutered. they would just be sure not to ever mate those two dogs again.

So I guess that pretty much invalidates everything the parti colour/Biewer breeders are claiming if all the info on the Internet cannot be trusted.
As the info on that page is from an actual genetisist I would think it gives it some validity.
Again, you don't understand how a purebred gets that status. The development and recognition of the YOrkshire terrier went through the same hoops as any other purebred to be recognized.
Many of the current purebreds were developed from mixed breeds the Yorkie was not the only one that came about through that path. BUt that was one heck of a long path they came through with meticulous records of true fanciers, once they sought recognition and for the result to breed true. These were not ever marketed as rare whatever.
Fact still remains, I don't know of any reputable show breeders that know there lines from 30+ years producing a parti colour. One of their dogs might have done so as you mention the Nikko line but again, bred to what?
Which again is why show breeders NOW are very selective of whom they will deal with because if they do breed or sell to someone that produces something not good, that show breeder will get the blame regardless of what is behind the non show breeder stock. Show breeders have kind of closed the barn doors after the horses got out but I don't believe this was such a problem until the huge dollars could be made off of small breed dogs including designer breeds and 'rare' colours and not just involving Yorkies, it is happening in many breeds.

I read the "information" on the link that you posted. I found it interesting that the writer was vague about the details pulled from "The Stockkeeper in 1887." She states, "Swift's Old Crab, a Scotch Terrier, Kershaw's Kitty, a Skye, and an Old English Terrier bitch of the black and tan saddle."

According to the actual publication "The Stockkeeper in 1887," it was stated that these dogs had no pedigree, and that Swift's Old Crab was a "cross bred Scotch Terrier." This all leads back to my theory that who knows and can guarantee, WHAT genes are in our yorkies.

What are you talking about? What I said was that how can a show breeder say that something happened when it didnt?
And I disagree with you. You can be sure something would turn up if it was there. As for Nikko, I don't know them personally, I have heard before it was alleged that there was a pari colour involving their dog but again what did the pedigree look like that went with the parti colour if indeed it existed.
I really think that the parti breeders are very set on going the direction they are going which is fine I don't care at all. But they are not rare colour yorkies, fact remains that the long time 30+ years show breeders I know have never produced it and I have no idea how breeders who do not know show breeders and do not know the show world at all can pass such judgements on our dogs and how we do things and what we might do if???
So, my points of view have been posted and said, I am far too busy to put anymore time into this.
Good luck in your endeavours in breeding whatever it is you are doing, you can be sure NO ONE reputable in YOrkies will ever deal with you, and for those who want to buy rare or off colour dogs of any breed, go ahead as long as you know what you are buying. If you don't care, why in the world would I?
In my experience, many people who want to just breed or have/want off colours get turned down by reputable show breeders when they try to buy a dog or get a stud service then will have nothing good to say about show breeders. My opinion only, based on experience. There is nothing on YT that I haven't heard or seen before.

I did not say that "all the info on the internet is invalid" fyou are now twising my words to try to prove your point. Don't do that the readers of this thread are smarter than that.

The claim that the person who wrote that is a geneticist is irrelevent. No one knows when, where or how the piebald gene got into the mix, but it is pretty obvious that it is there because these parti colored pups are coming from purebred registered champion lines of traditionsl yorkshire terriers. That much has been proven. So denying the fact that it is there is foolish.

As I wrote in another post, the maltese and the yorkies were all shown as broken haired scottish terriers, in the early 1860's, so it is more likely than not, that they were bred together.

I don't claim to understand everything that goes into establishing a breed and getting dogs to purebred status. I would imagine that once the breed is established, all the registered dogs in that breed would be considered pure bred. And only registered dogs of the same type could produce purebred offspring. Is it more compklicated than that?

The parti colored dogs' offspring were DNA'd to prove that they came from the purbred dogs that the breeders claimed to be the parents. It satisfied the AKC, and that is all that matters.

Are you saying the Gloria Liptman was not an honest breeder? Just because no one has personally told you that one of their champion dogs has sired a parti puppy, does not mean that it hasn't happened. It just means that they didn't care to share that information with you.

You didn't know about Nikko Kennels either until we told you.

As for how much money is made from breeding these partis or those breeding designer dogs and selling them, what difference does it make, as long as the breeders are not trying to pass them off as being something other than a mixed breed. If people want them and are willing to pay for them, I guess that is their own business. As long as they are selling healthy loving dogs, who are they hurting?

And you are lumping all parti breeders into the same category. Some of us actually have a purpose other than to make money.

Yup that is what I read also. that comes from a book written by Today's most leading authorities on the Yorkshire Terrier breed.

What are you talking about? What I said was that how can a show breeder say that something happened when it didnt? And I disagree with you. You can be sure something would turn up if it was there.

It would only turn up if on carrier was bred to another carrier ... if a carrier is breeding non carriers, than it wouldn't show up (with regards to the off colors we're talking about).

"As for Nikko, I don't know them personally, I have heard before it was alleged that there was a pari colour involving their dog but again what did the pedigree look like that went with the parti colour if indeed it existed."

Well, it's not alleged, it's a fact. As for pedigree, here's a link to my boy's extended pedigree.

http://hometown.aol.com/pinehaven/KidsPedigree.html

The problem here Lorraine, is that NO ONE CAN PROVE A NEGATIVE, so it is always unwise to take that stand.

No one can prove that something doesn't exist or didn't happen, or will NEVER happen, because there would be no evicence to support that theory.

Never say Never

yes, that's true. I didn't buy my girl BECAUSE she has Durrer's. I bought her IN SPITE of it figuring that what little she had was far enough back that whatever problem the line may or may not have had was too far back to hurt her.

if you are referring to MY post, below is EXACTLY what I said. Not one time did I say i knew it for a fact. i said from the beginning it was what I heard. so if it's my post you are talking about here, you are the one that needs to re-read it and as far as not mentioning the "supposed to be problem", i certainly DO know exactly what the problem was and what dogs produced them and I also know what this breeder did about it to correct the problem She is to be commended for doing what she had to do to get her line good again.and as to how do i know, well, one of the show breeders on here sent the info to another person in a pm. that pm was forwarded to me so you might say, i found out from someone 'in the know" Don't you just love pm's? lots of things are not supposed tobe posted on the public forum but oh my, how those pm's fly. my last words on this thread. it has been interesting and altho,, i dislike the choclate dogs, i love thee partis. i think they are so cute. My original post is quoted below if this is the one you are talking about.


that's not all Durrer has produced the past few years either from what I have heard .

[QUOTE=Mardelin;1348322]but, mary, the feeling that comes thru these posts is that unless you are a show breeder, you have to be a BYB. I just don't agree with that at all. Until recently, i had no interest at all in showing. I also don't know many breeders, show or not, that take any better care of their babies than I do. I, for one, do not consider myself a backyard breeder even tho I was called that by someone i loved on here in a pm to another person that was forwarded to me.

Read again. I obviously was NOT talking to you! I was replying to Paulapoo.

Copy of my post for you to reread.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by paulapoo
I know nothing of breeding and showing, but while following along with this thread I wondered....Would it really destroy a show breeders reputation if they produced a parti, etc? That seems extreme. Just curious.

You need to reread the post then because a statement was made that she (the breeder in question) had produced other things (not mentioned) and gave the impression that it could be bad then later posted that it was all things that she had heard and did not know personally."

As show breeders we take on a lot of expense and hard work to maintain the standard held for many years for the Yorkshire Terrier. Yes, we don't like breeders coming in and trying to change what is and was the original picture of the beginning of the Yorkshire Terrier Club and the standard that they set. This Standard doesn’t include the Parti-colored. If they want to start their own club and do their own work towards maintaining their own standard, then more power to them; but do not try to become just another color of a Yorkie and sale them as “rare”. Most show breeders join local clubs or even their National Club and sign agreements to follow a strict code of ethics with the objective to keep and maintain the Standard set for our breeds. We breed for show prospects and sell the others for pets. I personally have not made money from breeding and in fact work 3 jobs in order to be able to show my dogs in the show ring. I have nothing to hide about my dogs and you are welcome to PM me and I will give you my vets number. I have all my shots and everything done at the vets and my vet has seen each and every puppy that has been whelped by my dogs. None of them have been off-colored. It is easy to say things about people, but our point is that it should not be said unless it can be proven and that the person that is being accused should have the opportunity to defend themselves against what is being said. Just remember the old saying, "There but by the Grace of God goes I."

Sonja
www.tx2stepnyorkies.com

summit yorkies
 

Wow, I just went to the summit parti yorkie web site. Had to look because I have a male who is sired by Ch Summits Gangster of Love. Thank GOD its not the same kennel. I didnt think that show kennel, Summit, had partis. The parti summits dogs seem to havre horendous hair. Dont those people believe in grooming before they take web site pictures??? Definately the silk texture of the yorkie is NOT there. The white looks alot like the texture of maltese hair. I guess I would have to see and feel the dogs in person to know for sure. I have a question: Why dont all you parti breeders just go and buy a Biewer? Almost all of the hard work has already been done and you will have a dog with papers and can show it too. They look basically the same as parti colored yorkies and supposedly come from pure yorkie stock as well. Just a thought. Lynn

[QUOTE=Sugar's Mom;1349030]
If you've read my posts in the past....I've always stated I have no problem with anyone breeding. What I do have a problem with is people attempting to pass thereself of as a serious hobby breeder. I would have more respect for someone if they were honest and stated the only reason they were breeding is to sell puppies and make money. After all someone has to supply the pet world with puppies. If one's breeding practices are steller, there should be no reason to take it personal and continousely attempt to defend oneself.

Maybe because we love the challenge. Why is everyone so concerned about why we breed the parti colored yorkies. The Biewers ar not AKC registered and cannot be shown in AKC events.

Is this picture more to your liking?

parti
 

Thank God,neither can parti. Since I dont see any Parti breeders coming together to form their own club, maybe this post will get them motivated. But be prepared for years of hard work before you are sucessful in creating your own breed that is recognised by AKc. Maybe you should ask the Biewer breeders how they started. I say go for it!!!! The skys the limit!!!!! Hopefully all you parti breeders have what it takes to get the job done. Come to think of it, I always wanted a miniature Afgan Hound. But there are not enough years left in my lifetime to see it through. Lynn

Actually, thank God, parti's CAN participate in AKC events, just not conformation type classes.