honest thoughts w/o the uglies.

[R-Teddy]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

Very well articulated. NO ONE would suggest pups from BYB are crap...the poor innocent puppy had nothing to do with the unfortunate circumstance it is in. Unfortunately, a genuine, passionate concern for these puppies, is misconstrued by some people here, as an implication these puppies are "crap". Not true! It is NOT the puppy that is crappy, it is the BYB that was irresponsible enough to bring the puppy from concept to reality. How ironic that the very people on this forum that condem these irresponsible, unethical, unconcerned, uncaring breeders, are the ones brutalized by other members....it is the passionate members on here that are chastised and taken to task for trying to educate people about these breeders and how THEY are crap, not the pups. The MAJOR concern these members have, myself included, is not that these babies are "crap", but that they could possibly have genetic issues that are going to cause enormous, unnecessary suffering for the pup, and consequently, a huge financial burden on the new owner. That in turn, often leads to enormous guilt because the new owner is hung with a baby who they adore, but often can not possibly scrape up 3-7 thousand dollars to pay for medical care. There is NEVER an implication that the pup or the new owner is CRAP! People that have walked that mile in those shoes, simply try to share knowledge they have garnered from their real journey down that same road. How sad they are painted as "brutal", "mean", uncaring", "hostile", etc. Turn that venom on the people that deserve that criticism, the puppy mill outlet or the irresponsible breeder, not the concerned members here. Dont run from YT, the people that really care about you and your puppy....run from the people that have put you into a possible horrible position with a puppy that may very well result in heartbreak. (Isnt it ironic that the passionate, caring people are condemed about the WAY they write or speak or try to get the message across, but the person who REALLY did you a disservice, probable was all sugar and spice and warm and fuzzy, as they took your money and laughed at you behind your back....they are the ones you can not find now, they wont answer your calls, wont respond to your emails, etc.) Not every puppy mill pup will have issues, but the odds are it will. Not every puppy will have issues from bad breeding, but odds are stacked against it. Hopefully, everyone on here that owns now or buys a puppy from a puppy mill or a BYB, will have a great, healthy, well socialized baby....but if you dont, please dont be stunned and amazed and befuddled. Your pup is NOT crap, no one here ever thought that, but there are many, many people on here that realize the breeder they bought that pup from, is where the crap begins.

Well see there is the problem. I understand completely the wanting to educate people an the importance in doing so. I also understand completely the Passion for it. I work for a pit bull rescue, believe me, I do understand. BUT, there are ways to talk to people and educate them without putting them down. What is SAD, is there are a lot of people who have not figured out how to do that and truly are blind to the fact that they do. I dont know how to help them see that. And there is the problem.

[MaWilliams3]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

Here is the "wisdom" you ask for: It is never "safe" to bring unvaccinated, underage puppies into your home, in pairs. You can not effectively vaccinate underage puppies.....the vaccines just dont work because of immunities the puppy got from momma....enough to keep the vaccines from working but not really strong enough to prevent the puppy from getting parvo or distemper. This maternal immunity begins to weaken around 8 weeks of age, which is why it is best to start vaccines no sooner than 8 weeks of age. (Clinical research is being done as we speak, that just ONE vaccination is all that is needed to protect the puppy....we give the 3 shots at 3-4 week intervals, in order to "hit" the exact moment that the baby's immunity drops off to a level where the vaccine provides adequate protection.) Two puppies are double the trouble and (just like human kids), when one gets sick, they both will get sick. (from parvo, distemper, etc).
Encouragement you want: After years of being involved with these babies, I have come to realize an "ugly" truth....sometimes WISDOM is indeed a FEARFUL thing.....you avoid fearful outcomes by being knowledgable of the consequences of the situations in which you allow yourself to be a participant. When I learned that other person's experiences in situations could be very helpful to me and what I was trying to learn from/about, whether I liked what I was being told or not, whether information I was getting from many different sources, with many different methods of imparting their specific knowledge was "warm and fuzzy" or just bold and honest, it was all given to me by someone that took their precious time to share it with me, a novice seeking advice. When I learned the correct way to ask for advice, without sounding judgemental or caustic with my request, when I learned that information given by some was not "ugly" or "condemning" me, but given from a point of concern for the pet, I learned how to effectively, correctly ask questions without insulting the person/persons I was requesting help from. I found MY approach of asking for help was proportionally tempered by the attitude I displayed when asking for that help/advice/encouragement. "Wagons do not circle" unless a perceived hostile encounter approaches......
Nancy1999, thank you for taking the time to share what YOUR experience was with your pup....that information will be read by someone else that will absorb it, learn from it, and benefit from it.

Seems legit. Have a wonderful and fabulous day.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

How was I disrespectful? I honestly would like to learn what I did wrong. I was shocked at the response I got from the OP. We're just volunteers here, answering some questions in a way we think is helpful, I truly thought my reply would be helpful. If it wasn't I believe a gracious person would simply ignore it, not point out how useless it was.

Backyard breeder is a term given to breeders whose behavior is unsafe and detrimental to the breed. They range from truly inhumane to just ignorant breeders trying to make a buck. Let me just say, that no one here ever can say a dog is a crap dog, we as dog lovers would never allow that. We do say things like a particular dog shouldn't be bred, but that doesn't mean its a crap dog or anything less than the best show dog in the world. Most of us, aren't looking for gorgeous show dogs, we just a want a Yorkie who looks like a Yorkie, and is healthy, that's not asking too much, yet it's very hard to get these things if your don't go to a good breeder.

The other day on another thread, I said I love the quote, "She who seeks beauty shall find it." The reverse is true also.

But if a breeder breeds to better the breed, or AT THE MINIMUM to maintain the breed to its Standard, then those pups have the best shot of not only looking like a Yorkie, but a better chance for long-term health and a great temperament.

And a breeder is very lucky indeed if in three litters of pups, there is one Show Quality Dog. So most of the litter is destined to pet homes.

It really saddens me, that the public still does not Understand, you don't go to a Show Breeder, because you want a show dog, you go there to support those breeders who strive to improve on the breed, and to bring wonderfull animals into this world. And you will become one of the lucky owners of years and years of great selective breeding.

In fact as a pet owner, you simply would not be allowed to purchase a Show Quality dog.

As a pet owner, why pay top dollars for an ill-bred dog? You can get if you are willing to wait a wonderfull example of the breed anywhere from $1200-$1800 (if you live in the really expensive cities etc - $1800 is top end of what I would pay for a pet Yorkie. And for that price, I want a show and working dog breeder, who does and posts all the required health tests, from Championed parents both show and working dog titles. A health guarantee that means something, and a lifelong commitment to support their puppy owners.

For those pet owners who have "oopsey pregnancies", then I feel they should just basically *give* the puppies away for a nominal fee. $200-$300 or so dollars. After all you the puppy buyer are taking their mistakes off their hands, with no guarantee to health, temperament, or conformation. It is their responsibility to bear the costs of their mistakes. Not yours.

I shake my head at folks that pay $1000 or more for a puppy from breeders who have no idea what they are doing, and or, do none of the health tests, none of the championships, none of the pedigree research. Hey but then they can sell their pups for $500 or $600 or $700 and you think you are getting a deal? Think again!

[R-Teddy]

But it appears I have now find myself doing exactly what I would not do, which is argue or debate the subject. Sorry for being condescending on that. I have spoken my peace. Those who dont see or understand what I am trying to say here, highly like will not wont no matter what else I say.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by R-Teddy

But it appears I have now find myself doing exactly what I would not do, which is argue or debate the subject. Sorry for being condescending on that. I have spoken my peace. Those who dont see or understand what I am trying to say here, highly like will not wont no matter what else I say.

I understand what you are trying to say. How would you have replied to her, please show me.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

But if a breeder breeds to better the breed, or AT THE MINIMUM to maintain the breed to its Standard, then those pups have the best shot of not only looking like a Yorkie, but a better chance for long-term health and a great temperament.

And a breeder is very lucky indeed if in three litters of pups, there is one Show Quality Dog. So most of the litter is destined to pet homes.

It really saddens me, that the public still does not Understand, you don't go to a Show Breeder, because you want a show dog, you go there to support those breeders who strive to improve on the breed, and to bring wonderfull animals into this world. And you will become one of the lucky owners of years and years of great selective breeding.

In fact as a pet owner, you simply would not be allowed to purchase a Show Quality dog.

As a pet owner, why pay top dollars for an ill-bred dog? You can get if you are willing to wait a wonderfull example of the breed anywhere from $1200-$1800 (if you live in the really expensive cities etc - $1800 is top end of what I would pay for a pet Yorkie. And for that price, I want a show and working dog breeder, who does and posts all the required health tests, from Championed parents both show and working dog titles. A health guarantee that means something, and a lifelong commitment to support their puppy owners.

For those pet owners who have "oopsey pregnancies", then I feel they should just basically *give* the puppies away for a nominal fee. $200-$300 or so dollars. After all you the puppy buyer are taking their mistakes off their hands, with no guarantee to health, temperament, or conformation. It is their responsibility to bear the costs of their mistakes. Not yours.

I shake my head at folks that pay $1000 or more for a puppy from breeders who have no idea what they are doing, and or, do none of the health tests, none of the championships, none of the pedigree research. Hey but then they can sell their pups for $500 or $600 or $700 and you think you are getting a deal? Think again!

Excellent post!

[MaWilliams3]

Originally Posted by R-Teddy

Im not going to get into this argument with you. other then to say this, then im refusing to go any further.

There are some people on this forum that have a nasty habit of putting people down ( regardless if they see it or not) and basically making them feel like their dogs are or likely will be crap and they are crappy people for buying them. im sorry but I feel that is wrong. agreed, which is why I got defensive immediately

Forgive us for not being so well knowledge as all of them about "Back yard breeders" or what ever. But is that not why so many people come here to look for help and advice? people come here looking for help and advice, and often end up running away and not returning for that very reason. Because they get sick of being put down and being made to feel like they are BAD people or the likes. again agreed. I didn't even know what a BYB was until I came to this forum, AFTER I per chased this pup.

there are several people on this particular thread alone, that even if they dont necessarily agree with the OP or what she is doing / asking about, still manage to be respectful and kind and simply answer her question without putting her down. Why is that so hard to do? exactly my point! Thank you!!!

You guys would probably call the breeder I got my Athena from a "Back Yard Breeder". I dont know. Before coming to Yorkie Talk I had never even heard the term Back Yard Breeder before so didnt know the difference. she didnt normally breed her dogs to sell puppies. But the accidentally got together and it happen. Are there things she could of done. OF COURSE. she could have gotten the dogs spayed and neutered, for one, and perhaps other things as well. but she didnt. But my Athena is not a crap dog, and I dont feel I am a crappy person for adopting her. In fact I think I have done very well at caring for her, and getting her proper vet care etc. My vet seems to think I have done very well. So what right do a bunch of people who have never met me in person have to say other wise? Athenas breeder may not have been a top notch breeder, but I am not going to be breeding her. I got her spayed. Just because I can not afford to pay out a grand for a new puppy all at once doesnt make me a bad owner that shouldnt have a dog. And my Athena, who is the bill of health so far, deserves a good home just the same as the one that cost a grand. KUDOS, AGAIN MY STANCE.

There im done. let the ridicule begin. I dont care. I love my baby and I am a good fur baby Mama regardless of what some of the HOITY-TOITY people on here want to say. I support your decision. Good job.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by R-Teddy

Well see there is the problem. I understand completely the wanting to educate people an the importance in doing so. I also understand completely the Passion for it. I work for a pit bull rescue, believe me, I do understand. BUT, there are ways to talk to people and educate them without putting them down. What is SAD, is there are a lot of people who have not figured out how to do that and truly are blind to the fact that they do. I dont know how to help them see that. And there is the problem.

And there is the problem!!! I guess what some people consider "putting people down" in a response, is not considered by others as such, and that does not make their opinion less correct. (Referencing the OP post and all the replies, I did not see ONE response where the OP was being "put down" or talked to in any way that deserves to be invalidated because it just did not sound like what someone/anyone else may think is "right" or "better" or "kinder, gentller".) I really try not to tell other people how I PERSONALLY THINK they should be talking or addressing a post.....we are all individuals and we all address issues differently. I learned a long time ago I can not possibly make everyone in the world talk like I do, think like I do, walk like I do, perceive issues like I do....so instead of trying to re-work everyone else in the world to be another me, I just let people be themselves and I weed through responses I dont like and I LEARNED TO GET OVER IT. People talk and think and believe and act and look like they want to....I can not change that, and I do not try.....and it does not make them wrong for being themselves, whether I personally approve of it or not. It does not even make them wrong whether I personally agree with it or not. All that can be done is providing education to people...if they dont like it, or dont agree with it, or dont approve of it, they move on, they get over it, or they simply ignore it. Rather than trying to "correct" the entire membership to post their responses like any single individual thinks it should be written, if the rules and guidelines are not broken, it is an individuals right to submit a post and not be subjected to ridicule and beligerant attacks for how they address an issue......just because I dont happen to like the way another member talks or writes or educates, does NOT make them wrong....it makes me criticlal and actually interfers with SOMEONE perhaps learning something. If members would quit turning and devouring each other over things like punctuation, spelling, run on sentences, even incongruent thought processes, and stick to addressing the post and perhaps trying to educate the best way THEY can, this place would be more effective and successful. This is where people come to learn about their pups, etc, This is not the place for members to attack other members and teach an EnglishGrammer/Literature/Composition class on how they should be writing or thinking or trying to educate a poster.

Posted by Nancy1999:" I do understand, I just don't know how to change my writing, I really do the best I can. I see your initial posts as very attacking. Do you understand, that we have lost a lot of good responders because we are attacked and told our replies are worthless. Feel free to respond to any thread and answer the questions the way you think they should be answered, set a good example, but it really isn't all that helpful for you just to attack the people who are trying to give good information. If you think someone is way out of line in their replies, you can report them to admin.
That is the job of the moderators....Ann takes her job very seriously and hovers around these posts and if someone reports a post, she will most certainly look at it and if it is inappropriate, she will see it is deleted.

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by R-Teddy

ok that may indeed be true, but what some of you dont seem to understand, is that is not the way it is coming across to a lot of people. And often, when feeling as if they are being treated badly, of course people are going to come back defensive and likely wont wait around to "get more information".

the original OP of this thread private messaged me and told me for now on shes just going to be a LURKER, not a poster. that she debated back and forth with herself before even posting this thread because she feared this kind of reaction to her, but in the end thought it important to find out what the risk were. People are often AFRAID to post. is that what YT is suppose to be about? Is that what you want or the others?

I have some friends on facebook who I met here on YT then later added to facebook that now refuse to come back to YT for the very reasons I have stated and more that I havnt. Is that what YT wants? I dont think it is.YT is suppose to be about helping people and more importantly, the dogs. I dont think having people be afraid to post and running away is what we want here, or not suppose to. How is that helping the dogs or people?

People need to understand that alot of people who come here first of all already have dogs, regardless of how they got them, and the average person is not as well if at all knowledged about how to choose a good breeder, or what a back yard breeder is, ect. the average person doesnt even think to find out about that stuff before going to look for a pup, its not until AFTER they get them and come to a place like this that they even learn about that stuff. That doesnt make them bad people, just ignorant on such things and thats not necessarily their fault. some havnt even heard of puppy mills. Ganted I find it hard to understand how people dont know about Puppy Mills in this day of age, some dont. By the time they come here, they already have the dog. so are we going to chance them off, or are we going to help them as best we can. I for one would prefer to help.

I dont doubt that it is very possible that people dont think of any of the dogs as being CRAP DOGS, but my point is, the way some people come across, that is how you make people feel. One of my friends on facebook use to come here and stopped because one of many reasons was she was made to feel like because her dog was not full yorkie but a mix breed, she was a bad person and her dog was insignificant here. Obviously this isnt something im just making up, I have spoken to people that have told me thats how they are made to feel here. Are we all making it up?

For crying out loud, for the umpteenth time if you don't like something report it, whining and crying and preaching and rolling out the words to paragraphs on a forum is really so time consuming...you keep saying a lot of people well a lot of people feel opposite to you, who and what you do behind the scenes and talk about is your business, if you don't like something just report it and stop trying to police people, you and those who think that way are trying to drive others off the board, in my humble opinion. There are many many people on this board and many many different personalities and these types of things have been going on since the beginning of YT...again, I say POST AND LET POST....But strangely there are always many many many people here....I'm not being condescending or judgemental, I'm just saying enough. Peace!!

[R-Teddy]

Originally Posted by lynzy420

For crying out loud, for the umpteenth time if you don't like something report it, whining and crying and preaching and rolling out the words to paragraphs on a forum is really so time consuming...you keep saying a lot of people well a lot of people feel opposite to you, who and what you do behind the scenes and talk about is your business, if you don't like something just report it and stop trying to police people, you and those who think that way are trying to drive others off the board, in my humble opinion. There are many many people on this board and many many different personalities and these types of things have been going on since the beginning of YT...again, I say POST AND LET POST....But strangely there are always many many many people here....I'm not being condescending or judgemental, I'm just saying enough. Peace!!

Honey im not trying to police anyone. I just simply made a statement at start saying that this was why I left TY for so long and I thought it had changed, but perhaps not. then Someone responding to me and I stated why I felt that way.

Another poster stated, Let people be who they are and post what they want to post. weed through what you dont like and get over it....

ok cool, then do so.


Others obviously dont have a problem with stating their personal outlook of the situation, and some agree with their outlooks, some dont. so why should it be any different for me.

[sandil1205]

[QUOTE=R-Teddy;4486743]ok that may indeed be true, but what some of you dont seem to understand, is that is not the way it is coming across to a lot of people. And often, when feeling as if they are being treated badly, of course people are going to come back defensive and likely wont wait around to "get more information".


I have some friends on facebook who I met here on YT then later added to facebook that now refuse to come back to YT for the very reasons I have stated and more that I havnt. Is that what YT wants? I dont think it is.YT is suppose to be about helping people and more importantly, the dogs. I dont think having people be afraid to post and running away is what we want here, or not suppose to. How is that helping the dogs or people?[QUOTE]



yep...and i'm one of them...
and, on top of that...i guess i own a *crap* dog too!! i paid quite a bit for Jake, but he was evidently, from information i found out later, from a bad breeder...oh, and he's a morkie...i know some people also think they are *crap* dogs anyway...but i do agree that they are not a breed...they are a mix...
i got a morkie because, it's real simple...i like the way they look and their personalities...so i probably shouldn't have even joined yorkie talk, because my baby isn't a yorkie...

i almost posted here last week, as Jake was having some problems... but i decided not to...thankfully, all is well...and i had a lot of support and love from RTeddy, who's a wonderful dog mom and a terrific person...

I did post when we had to say goodbye to our Gus, and got a lot of very wonderful responses...so thanks for that, i always appreciate kindness...most people do, and they don't want to feel like they are *less than* anyone else...

like i've said before, i worked on a forum for over 10 years, not related to dogs...and trained my moderators...we never allowed *anyone* to attack anyone else...period...

Sandi

[sandil1205]

[QUOTE=R-Teddy;4486743]ok that may indeed be true, but what some of you dont seem to understand, is that is not the way it is coming across to a lot of people. And often, when feeling as if they are being treated badly, of course people are going to come back defensive and likely wont wait around to "get more information".

I have some friends on facebook who I met here on YT then later added to facebook that now refuse to come back to YT for the very reasons I have stated and more that I havnt. Is that what YT wants? I dont think it is.YT is suppose to be about helping people and more importantly, the dogs. I dont think having people be afraid to post and running away is what we want here, or not suppose to. How is that helping the dogs or people?[QUOTE]



yep...and i'm one of them...
and, on top of that...i guess i own a *crap* dog too!! i paid quite a bit for Jake, but he was evidently, from information i found out later, from a bad breeder...oh, and he's a morkie...i know some people also think they are *crap* dogs anyway...but i do agree that they are not a breed...they are a mix...
i got a morkie because, it's real simple...i like the way they look and their personalities...so i probably shouldn't have even joined yorkie talk, because my baby isn't a yorkie...

i almost posted here last week, as Jake was having some problems... but i decided not to...thankfully, all is well...and i had a lot of support and love from RTeddy, who's a wonderful dog mom and a terrific person...

I did post when we had to say goodbye to our Gus, and got a lot of very wonderful responses...so thanks for that, i always appreciate kindness...most people do, and they don't want to feel like they are *less than* anyone else...

like i've said before, i worked on a forum for over 10 years, not related to dogs...and trained my moderators...we never allowed *anyone* to attack anyone else...period...

[lynzy420]

Don't honey me, really on a forum? Get over yourself and move on.

[R-Teddy]

Originally Posted by lynzy420

Don't honey me, really on a forum? Get over yourself and move on.

I apologize. I live in the south. where I come from everyone calls everyone HONEY or darlin. It wasnt meant as an insult.

But if I was trying to POLICE people, when Nancy asked me how I thought she should have responded, I would have replied to that. I didnt.

Oh and I would love to move on, but people like you keep dragging me back in.

but I found a solution. ill just delete the thread from my subscription and forget about it. have a great day.

[gemy]

[quote=sandil1205;4486794][QUOTE=R-Teddy;4486743]ok that may indeed be true, but what some of you dont seem to understand, is that is not the way it is coming across to a lot of people. And often, when feeling as if they are being treated badly, of course people are going to come back defensive and likely wont wait around to "get more information".


I have some friends on facebook who I met here on YT then later added to facebook that now refuse to come back to YT for the very reasons I have stated and more that I havnt. Is that what YT wants? I dont think it is.YT is suppose to be about helping people and more importantly, the dogs. I dont think having people be afraid to post and running away is what we want here, or not suppose to. How is that helping the dogs or people?

yep...and i'm one of them...
and, on top of that...i guess i own a *crap* dog too!! i paid quite a bit for Jake, but he was evidently, from information i found out later, from a bad breeder...oh, and he's a morkie...i know some people also think they are *crap* dogs anyway...but i do agree that they are not a breed...they are a mix...
i got a morkie because, it's real simple...i like the way they look and their personalities...so i probably shouldn't have even joined yorkie talk, because my baby isn't a yorkie...

i almost posted here last week, as Jake was having some problems... but i decided not to...thankfully, all is well...and i had a lot of support and love from RTeddy, who's a wonderful dog mom and a terrific person...

I did post when we had to say goodbye to our Gus, and got a lot of very wonderful responses...so thanks for that, i always appreciate kindness...most people do, and they don't want to feel like they are *less than* anyone else...

like i've said before, i worked on a forum for over 10 years, not related to dogs...and trained my moderators...we never allowed *anyone* to attack anyone else...period...

Sandi

I am so very sorry if you were made to feel from YT posters here that your dog was a "crap" dog. All breeds are welcome here to join and share in YT.

I have had so much support from YT for my other breed BRT, that I will always give respect to and honor the very many caring, concerned and valuable contributors to this board.

I also from the former show breeder members here got lots of advice for my show Yorkie. Sadly most are not around anymore.

In my gentlest way possible, I would like to point out, that many members here will do their best to "steer" folks away from less than ideal breeders. But look once you have your pup, they have captured your heart, and are yours for-ever more. Some will and might say, for cautionary purposes try to do this or that, for example get pet insurance that covers genetic defects.

In your personal case of owning a Morkie, without knowing if both the breeding pair were fully health tested, I would say be mindfull of, LS and LP are very prevalent in both breeds, along with gastro-intestinal issues. You might consider if you have not BAT tested your pup, that you do so. Catching MVD early is a good thing. With mixes, you have no idea what the Russian Roulette wheel will bring. Morkies do not have an established health database to even begin to understand what the health concerns are of breeding Yorkie A to Maltese B. And for any dog, I always suggest a full blood panel be done at about one year old.

And now, I too have taken this thread way off the original posters question, and will try to refrain from posting more.