honest thoughts w/o the uglies.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by MaWilliams3

It isn't about money. I live comfortably. I know about the knees, the liver, the hypoglycemia, the grooming, and the insurance. All things I'm already planning to take on. I'm taking vacation from work (they pay you for that now) and altering my schedule so that someone is always home. I don't know what gave you the impression that I'm poor and unable to provide. I'm smart enough to know that animals, like children require time and money. This is the moms 4th and last litter. All healthy pups, I even met pups from the first litter. What I'm asking is, is it safe? I have had multiple dogs in my life time; but never 2 puppies from different litters at the same age.

I relayed a very painful experience with my dealing with a backyard breeder and you accuse me of being condescending and say that the only thing you’ve learned from my post was Chihuahuas were cheaper? How am I supposed to know your finances, you say you work, so that probably means that you aren’t independently wealthy. Also, you are knowingly going to a backyard breeder, so that’s another indication that money might be an important factor to you, but I in no way implied you were poor, Miss frowny face. I should have known by your first statement of wanting "honest opinions without the uglies", you were going to look for any ugliness you could find, and if they weren’t there, you’d find them somehow. You say, “I'm taking vacation from work (they pay you for that now)” and I’m the one that’s condescending? Project much? You say that you, “just want to know if it is safe. Is there anything I should consider.” I have no idea what you mean by “safe”, so I gave you some of the things I thought you should consider. I think you owe me an apology.

[gemy]

Risks of 2 new young puppies from different breeders:

Neither puppy has had their first set of shots** Reputable breeders especially will keep their toy breeds until 12 wks - which means around 10 wks they have their first set of shots.

Dr Jean Dodds has a vaccination schedule it should be found in the library.

I advise you to look up this schedule and talk with your vet - ask for her recommendation on how long to wait before bringing in the second puppy.

**Insurance**- most companies wont start the insurance until the puppy is 8wks old.

Double the trouble Which I expect you are aware of. Training, housebreaking and financial costs.

Good luck with your new pup(s)

[MaWilliams3]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I relayed a very painful experience with my dealing with a backyard breeder and you accuse me of being condescending and say that the only thing you’ve learned from my post was Chihuahuas were cheaper? How am I supposed to know your finances, you say you work, so that probably means that you aren’t independently wealthy. Also, you are knowingly going to a backyard breeder, so that’s another indication that money might be an important factor to you, but I in no way implied you were poor, Miss frowny face. I should have known by your first statement of wanting "honest opinions without the uglies", you were going to look for any ugliness you could find, and if they weren’t there, you’d find them somehow. You say, “I'm taking vacation from work (they pay you for that now)” and I’m the one that’s condescending? Project much? You say that you, “just want to know if it is safe. Is there anything I should consider.” I have no idea what you mean by “safe”, so I gave you some of the things I thought you should consider. I think you owe me an apology.

I'm not independently wealthy. I, like most of the world's population work, my husband also works, my 2 of 3 of my children work. You can't inflect tone in text, I'm sorry it came across to me as condescending. My question was quite simple. Is it safe. I made it clear that I have considered all ramifications involved in being a pet owner. Thanks for your background story. As I mentioned before, I did not now the breeder was a backyard breeder until I had paid half the cost of the puppy. I'm in it for the long haul, and would appreciate words of wisdom and encouragement as opposed to posts riddled with fear. (Which is different from, hey watch out for this or that) This is my first puppy. I came here for advice. I appreciate any guidance. Thanks.

[windwalker]

It all depends on you, your experience level, can you be the pack leader. Pups will feed off you and react accordingly, its somewhat affected by where they were in their litter, but you can overcome that if your a strong experienced leader.


If you get one before the other, take the first one to a friends house or back yard and let the new one acclimate before reintroducing the first one. This throws off the territorial instincts if the first one has some even if only done for a few hours.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by MaWilliams3

I'm not independently wealthy. I, like most of the world's population work, my husband also works, my 2 of 3 of my children work. You can't inflect tone in text, I'm sorry it came across to me as condescending. My question was quite simple. Is it safe. I made it clear that I have considered all ramifications involved in being a pet owner. Thanks for your background story. As I mentioned before, I did not now the breeder was a backyard breeder until I had paid half the cost of the puppy. I'm in it for the long haul, and would appreciate words of wisdom and encouragement as opposed to posts riddled with fear. (Which is different from, hey watch out for this or that) This is my first puppy. I came here for advice. I appreciate any guidance. Thanks.

You hadn't made it clear that you had considered all the ramifications involved in being a pet owner when I wrote my reply. While you think your question was quite simple, it was too simple for me, I was confused by what it meant so answered in terms of what I thought “safe” might mean and my answers took a financial leaning I guess, but that's probably is more telling of me than you. I too am sorry if that seemed condescending, but I like to know the financial aspect of anything before I commit. I wrongly assumed you would as well. Believe me, I don't give up hours of my week so I can make a member of Yorkietalk angry, I want every possible pet owner to get the dog that's best suited for them. I truly don't know how to answer you since I'm now afraid anything I say will be "riddled with fear." I personally would rather lose half my investment than buy from the backyard breeder. Are you sure the other breeder is reputable? Your first post, “Two pups, different breeds, same age..... same day pick up? (No vacs)” led me to believe that it was one breeder, in later posts you have said it was different breeders, but since neither one is giving shots, I would say neither breeder is reputable. Yorkies should stay with their mothers a minimum of 12 weeks, according to the YTCA and this enables the mother to begin teaching inhibition of the biting reflex and the beginnings of pee pad training. Good mothers literally push their pups to the pads when they smell that the pup has to pee. I would not mix two pups from different kennels together that had no shots, even if you rush them to the vet that very day. Immunizations take two weeks to offer protection, and in fact actually lower the protection at first. If this is your first pup, housebreaking is much harder with the smaller breeds, and someone has to be there to take them out of their crate more frequently. Don’t plan on having a toy dog trained before a year. With two dogs, it’s even more difficult.

[MaWilliams3]

At any rate, I have decided against the second puppy. I want my Noni to have the best and most spoiled life imaginable. I can't do that for him if I'm focusing on two puppies. Maybe later (years) down the road I'll being in another pup for him to be big brother to. Thanks again.

[shelbysmom]

I am sure there are advantages and disadvantages to having 2 pups at once. It's nice that the pups will have each other but if they have each other from the start I wonder if people bonding issues are a problem. Yorkies are so affectionate and close to their humans there is really nothing like it. This time around I have a pup that also loves dogs (my last Yorkie did not). Now that she is potty trained and a "little" less work at 10 months I think about getting another one. I would have to really do my homework because I would need someone not too assertive. Ali is incredibly sweet and I don't want her intimidated.

I think you understand all the financial, health, and work related issues. Think about what kind of relationship and experience you want with the dogs. (Sort of like choosing twin human babies at once?)

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[R-Teddy]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I think you have to see when people ask for only "nice" posts however they post it, it riles people up. It's like telling people how to post and that never goes well.

Im not going to get into this argument with you. other then to say this, then im refusing to go any further.

There are some people on this forum that have a nasty habit of putting people down ( regardless if they see it or not) and basically making them feel like their dogs are or likely will be crap and they are crappy people for buying them. im sorry but I feel that is wrong.

Forgive us for not being so well knowledge as all of them about "Back yard breeders" or what ever. But is that not why so many people come here to look for help and advice? people come here looking for help and advice, and often end up running away and not returning for that very reason. Because they get sick of being put down and being made to feel like they are BAD people or the likes.

there are several people on this particular thread alone, that even if they dont necessarily agree with the OP or what she is doing / asking about, still manage to be respectful and kind and simply answer her question without putting her down. Why is that so hard to do?

You guys would probably call the breeder I got my Athena from a "Back Yard Breeder". I dont know. Before coming to Yorkie Talk I had never even heard the term Back Yard Breeder before so didnt know the difference. she didnt normally breed her dogs to sell puppies. But the accidentally got together and it happen. Are there things she could of done. OF COURSE. she could have gotten the dogs spayed and neutered, for one, and perhaps other things as well. but she didnt. But my Athena is not a crap dog, and I dont feel I am a crappy person for adopting her. In fact I think I have done very well at caring for her, and getting her proper vet care etc. My vet seems to think I have done very well. So what right do a bunch of people who have never met me in person have to say other wise? Athenas breeder may not have been a top notch breeder, but I am not going to be breeding her. I got her spayed. Just because I can not afford to pay out a grand for a new puppy all at once doesnt make me a bad owner that shouldnt have a dog. And my Athena, who is the bill of health so far, deserves a good home just the same as the one that cost a grand.

There im done. let the ridicule begin. I dont care. I love my baby and I am a good fur baby Mama regardless of what some of the HOITY-TOITY people on here want to say.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by MaWilliams3

I'm not independently wealthy. I, like most of the world's population work, my husband also works, my 2 of 3 of my children work. You can't inflect tone in text, I'm sorry it came across to me as condescending. My question was quite simple. Is it safe. I made it clear that I have considered all ramifications involved in being a pet owner. Thanks for your background story. As I mentioned before, I did not now the breeder was a backyard breeder until I had paid half the cost of the puppy. I'm in it for the long haul, and would appreciate words of wisdom and encouragement as opposed to posts riddled with fear. (Which is different from, hey watch out for this or that) This is my first puppy. I came here for advice. I appreciate any guidance. Thanks.

Here is the "wisdom" you ask for: It is never "safe" to bring unvaccinated, underage puppies into your home, in pairs. You can not effectively vaccinate underage puppies.....the vaccines just dont work because of immunities the puppy got from momma....enough to keep the vaccines from working but not really strong enough to prevent the puppy from getting parvo or distemper. This maternal immunity begins to weaken around 8 weeks of age, which is why it is best to start vaccines no sooner than 8 weeks of age. (Clinical research is being done as we speak, that just ONE vaccination is all that is needed to protect the puppy....we give the 3 shots at 3-4 week intervals, in order to "hit" the exact moment that the baby's immunity drops off to a level where the vaccine provides adequate protection.) Two puppies are double the trouble and (just like human kids), when one gets sick, they both will get sick. (from parvo, distemper, etc).
Encouragement you want: After years of being involved with these babies, I have come to realize an "ugly" truth....sometimes WISDOM is indeed a FEARFUL thing.....you avoid fearful outcomes by being knowledgable of the consequences of the situations in which you allow yourself to be a participant. When I learned that other person's experiences in situations could be very helpful to me and what I was trying to learn from/about, whether I liked what I was being told or not, whether information I was getting from many different sources, with many different methods of imparting their specific knowledge was "warm and fuzzy" or just bold and honest, it was all given to me by someone that took their precious time to share it with me, a novice seeking advice. When I learned the correct way to ask for advice, without sounding judgemental or caustic with my request, when I learned that information given by some was not "ugly" or "condemning" me, but given from a point of concern for the pet, I learned how to effectively, correctly ask questions without insulting the person/persons I was requesting help from. I found MY approach of asking for help was proportionally tempered by the attitude I displayed when asking for that help/advice/encouragement. "Wagons do not circle" unless a perceived hostile encounter approaches......
Nancy1999, thank you for taking the time to share what YOUR experience was with your pup....that information will be read by someone else that will absorb it, learn from it, and benefit from it.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by R-Teddy

Im not going to get into this argument with you. other then to say this, then im refusing to go any further.

There are some people on this forum that have a nasty habit of putting people down ( regardless if they see it or not) and basically making them feel like their dogs are or likely will be crap and they are crappy people for buying them. im sorry but I feel that is wrong.

Forgive us for not being so well knowledge as all of them about "Back yard breeders" or what ever. But is that not why so many people come here to look for help and advice? people come here looking for help and advice, and often end up running away and not returning for that very reason. Because they get sick of being put down and being made to feel like they are BAD people or the likes.

there are several people on this particular thread alone, that even if they dont necessarily agree with the OP or what she is doing / asking about, still manage to be respectful and kind and simply answer her question without putting her down. Why is that so hard to do?

You guys would probably call the breeder I got my Athena from a "Back Yard Breeder". I dont know. Before coming to Yorkie Talk I had never even heard the term Back Yard Breeder before so didnt know the difference. she didnt normally breed her dogs to sell puppies. But the accidentally got together and it happen. Are there things she could of done. OF COURSE. she could have gotten the dogs spayed and neutered, for one, and perhaps other things as well. but she didnt. But my Athena is not a crap dog, and I dont feel I am a crappy person for adopting her. In fact I think I have done very well at caring for her, and getting her proper vet care etc. My vet seems to think I have done very well. So what right do a bunch of people who have never met me in person have to say other wise? Athenas breeder may not have been a top notch breeder, but I am not going to be breeding her. I got her spayed. Just because I can not afford to pay out a grand for a new puppy all at once doesnt make me a bad owner that shouldnt have a dog. And my Athena, who is the bill of health so far, deserves a good home just the same as the one that cost a grand.

There im done. let the ridicule begin. I dont care. I love my baby and I am a good fur baby Mama regardless of what some of the HOITY-TOITY people on here want to say.

How was I disrespectful? I honestly would like to learn what I did wrong. I was shocked at the response I got from the OP. We're just volunteers here, answering some questions in a way we think is helpful, I truly thought my reply would be helpful. If it wasn't I believe a gracious person would simply ignore it, not point out how useless it was.

Backyard breeder is a term given to breeders whose behavior is unsafe and detrimental to the breed. They range from truly inhumane to just ignorant breeders trying to make a buck. Let me just say, that no one here ever can say a dog is a crap dog, we as dog lovers would never allow that. We do say things like a particular dog shouldn't be bred, but that doesn't mean its a crap dog or anything less than the best show dog in the world. Most of us, aren't looking for gorgeous show dogs, we just a want a Yorkie who looks like a Yorkie, and is healthy, that's not asking too much, yet it's very hard to get these things if your don't go to a good breeder.

The other day on another thread, I said I love the quote, "She who seeks beauty shall find it." The reverse is true also.

[R-Teddy]

I want to add as a side note that how I came about getting athena was different circumstances all together as her mother was killed in a car accident. the BREEDER was a friend of mine and needed someone to take the puppies way to early, but with no mother, not to mention her own injuries, had no choice.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by R-Teddy

I want to add as a side note that how I came about getting athena was different circumstances all together as her mother was killed in a car accident. the BREEDER was a friend of mine and needed someone to take the puppies way to early, but with no mother, had no choice.

And I thank you for being there and being a good mom to this little one. I just want to add, one of the members who replied to this thread, Ladyjane , runs a rescue and some of the dogs are her personal pets. I’m sure none of her dogs came from excellent breeders, but I don’t think anyone could ever call one of her babies a “crap dog!" It’s not about the dog, it’s about the breeder. We truly are all on the same side, once you get enough information.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

How was I disrespectful? I honestly would like to learn what I did wrong. I was shocked at the response I got from the OP. We're just volunteers here, answering some questions in a way we think is helpful, I truly thought my reply would be helpful. If it wasn't I believe a gracious person would simply ignore it, not point out how useless it was.

Backyard breeder is a term given to breeders whose behavior is unsafe and detrimental to the breed. They range from truly inhumane to just ignorant breeders trying to make a buck. Let me just say, that no one here ever can say a dog is a crap dog, we as dog lovers would never allow that. We do say things like a particular dog shouldn't be bred, but that doesn't mean its a crap dog or anything less than the best show dog in the world. Most of us, aren't looking for gorgeous show dogs, we just a want a Yorkie who looks like a Yorkie, and is healthy, that's not asking too much, yet it's very hard to get these things if your don't go to a good breeder.

The other day on another thread, I said I love the quote, "She who seeks beauty shall find it." The reverse is true also.

Very well articulated. NO ONE would suggest pups from BYB are crap...the poor innocent puppy had nothing to do with the unfortunate circumstance it is in. Unfortunately, a genuine, passionate concern for these puppies, is misconstrued by some people here, as an implication these puppies are "crap". Not true! It is NOT the puppy that is crappy, it is the BYB that was irresponsible enough to bring the puppy from concept to reality. How ironic that the very people on this forum that condem these irresponsible, unethical, unconcerned, uncaring breeders, are the ones brutalized by other members....it is the passionate members on here that are chastised and taken to task for trying to educate people about these breeders and how THEY are crap, not the pups. The MAJOR concern these members have, myself included, is not that these babies are "crap", but that they could possibly have genetic issues that are going to cause enormous, unnecessary suffering for the pup, and consequently, a huge financial burden on the new owner. That in turn, often leads to enormous guilt because the new owner is hung with a baby who they adore, but often can not possibly scrape up 3-7 thousand dollars to pay for medical care. There is NEVER an implication that the pup or the new owner is CRAP! People that have walked that mile in those shoes, simply try to share knowledge they have garnered from their real journey down that same road. How sad they are painted as "brutal", "mean", uncaring", "hostile", etc. Turn that venom on the people that deserve that criticism, the puppy mill outlet or the irresponsible breeder, not the concerned members here. Dont run from YT, the people that really care about you and your puppy....run from the people that have put you into a possible horrible position with a puppy that may very well result in heartbreak. (Isnt it ironic that the passionate, caring people are condemed about the WAY they write or speak or try to get the message across, but the person who REALLY did you a disservice, probable was all sugar and spice and warm and fuzzy, as they took your money and laughed at you behind your back....they are the ones you can not find now, they wont answer your calls, wont respond to your emails, etc.) Not every puppy mill pup will have issues, but the odds are it will. Not every puppy will have issues from bad breeding, but odds are stacked against it. Hopefully, everyone on here that owns now or buys a puppy from a puppy mill or a BYB, will have a great, healthy, well socialized baby....but if you dont, please dont be stunned and amazed and befuddled. Your pup is NOT crap, no one here ever thought that, but there are many, many people on here that realize the breeder they bought that pup from, is where the crap begins.

[R-Teddy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

And I thank you for being there and being a good mom to this little one. I just want to add, one of the members who replied to this thread, Ladyjane , runs a rescue and some of the dogs are her personal pets. I’m sure none of her dogs came from excellent breeders, but I don’t think anyone could ever call one of her babies a “crap dog!" It’s not about the dog, it’s about the breeder. We truly are all on the same side, once you get enough information.

ok that may indeed be true, but what some of you dont seem to understand, is that is not the way it is coming across to a lot of people. And often, when feeling as if they are being treated badly, of course people are going to come back defensive and likely wont wait around to "get more information".

the original OP of this thread private messaged me and told me for now on shes just going to be a LURKER, not a poster. that she debated back and forth with herself before even posting this thread because she feared this kind of reaction to her, but in the end thought it important to find out what the risk were. People are often AFRAID to post. is that what YT is suppose to be about? Is that what you want or the others?

I have some friends on facebook who I met here on YT then later added to facebook that now refuse to come back to YT for the very reasons I have stated and more that I havnt. Is that what YT wants? I dont think it is.YT is suppose to be about helping people and more importantly, the dogs. I dont think having people be afraid to post and running away is what we want here, or not suppose to. How is that helping the dogs or people?

People need to understand that alot of people who come here first of all already have dogs, regardless of how they got them, and the average person is not as well if at all knowledged about how to choose a good breeder, or what a back yard breeder is, ect. the average person doesnt even think to find out about that stuff before going to look for a pup, its not until AFTER they get them and come to a place like this that they even learn about that stuff. That doesnt make them bad people, just ignorant on such things and thats not necessarily their fault. some havnt even heard of puppy mills. Ganted I find it hard to understand how people dont know about Puppy Mills in this day of age, some dont. By the time they come here, they already have the dog. so are we going to chance them off, or are we going to help them as best we can. I for one would prefer to help.

I dont doubt that it is very possible that people dont think of any of the dogs as being CRAP DOGS, but my point is, the way some people come across, that is how you make people feel. One of my friends on facebook use to come here and stopped because one of many reasons was she was made to feel like because her dog was not full yorkie but a mix breed, she was a bad person and her dog was insignificant here. Obviously this isnt something im just making up, I have spoken to people that have told me thats how they are made to feel here. Are we all making it up?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by R-Teddy

ok that may indeed be true, but what some of you dont seem to understand, is that is not the way it is coming across to a lot of people. And often, when feeling as if they are being treated badly, of course people are going to come back defensive and likely wont wait around to "get more information".

the original OP of this thread private messaged me and told me for now on shes just going to be a LURKER, not a poster. that she debated back and forth with herself before even posting this thread because she feared this kind of reaction to her, but in the end thought it important to find out what the risk were. People are often AFRAID to post. is that what YT is suppose to be about? Is that what you want or the others?

I have some friends on facebook who I met here on YT then later added to facebook that now refuse to come back to YT for the very reasons I have stated and more that I havnt. Is that what YT wants? I dont think it is.YT is suppose to be about helping people and more importantly, the dogs. I dont think having people be afraid to post and running away is what we want here, or not suppose to. How is that helping the dogs or people?

People need to understand that alot of people who come here first of all already have dogs, regardless of how they got them, and the average person is not as well if at all knowledged about how to choose a good breeder, or what a back yard breeder is, ect. the average person doesnt even think to find out about that stuff before going to look for a pup, its not until AFTER they get them and come to a place like this that they even learn about that stuff. That doesnt make them bad people, just ignorant on such things and thats not necessarily their fault. some havnt even heard of puppy mills. Ganted I find it hard to understand how people dont know about Puppy Mills in this day of age, some dont. By the time they come here, they already have the dog. so are we going to chance them off, or are we going to help them as best we can. I for one would prefer to help.

I dont doubt that it is very possible that people dont think of any of the dogs as being CRAP DOGS, but my point is, the way some people come across, that is how you make people feel. One of my friends on facebook use to come here and stopped because one of many reasons was she was made to feel like because her dog was not full yorkie but a mix breed, she was a bad person and her dog was insignificant here. Obviously this isnt something im just making up, I have spoken to people that have told me thats how they are made to feel here. Are we all making it up?

I do understand, I just don't know how to change my writing, I really do the best I can. I see your initial posts as very attacking. Do you understand, that we have lost a lot of good responders because we are attacked and told our replies are worthless. Feel free to respond to any thread and answer the questions the way you think they should be answered, set a good example, but it really isn't all that helpful for you just to attack the people who are trying to give good information. If you think someone is way out of line in their replies, you can report them to admin.