I'm getting a dna test done. Then what??

[gemy]

This is really interesting. But I still am very shocked and confused, because it is not just the short hair. It is head shape, ear-set and size, and I don't think I've seen profile views or videos of this dogs movement and shape.

Having recently seen 7 or 8 rescued Yorkies about 2 or so weeks ago, I could at least see some Yorkie in them. Hey maybe they were pure Yorkies our rescue team simply didn't know for sure.

A couple had the curly coats but were basically easily identified as something Yorkie, some had the longer muzzle and sharper one - that is commonly referred to as the more "terrier type" muzzle.

One was all brown, probably sold as a "chocolate Yorkie". All needed love and care and a for-ever home.

What I found sad was that a comment was made - somewhat off-hand about hey they kind of look like ordinary Yorkies - you know we here are lucky in that we have "show" Yorkies - mostly what is out there looks more or less like these.....

Quite frankly I was aghast at the comment. It said so much without the commentator even being aware of what they said. As a member of a National Breed Club - you need to be pro-active and gawd help me shocked at what passes in the street for a Yorkie.

I think that all National Clubs of every breed should may I even say it? AGGRESSIVELY pursue and showcase what a well bred Yorkie looks like. NOT a SHOW Yorkie, but a well bred Yorkie that is not for show but for pet ownership.

If the general populance does not understand that if you pay big bucks, then at the Minimum you should be getting a dog that looks like the breed, has a great temperament and is healthy to boot!

And for the breeders, you all might hate me for saying this, but if you somehow end up with an off standard puppy, it behoves you to place this puppy at a minimum cost to a future pet home with full disclosure!

I cherish the memory and there is only one, in a huge city that I live in, where I met in a bookstore a woman with her pet Yorkie. Her Yorkie was a beautiful gal, easily identified as a Yorkie. Sound structure, pleasing temperament, beautiful silk coat. I admired that gal, and had a lovely chat with the owner.

[abbey46923]

Originally Posted by gemy

This is really interesting. But I still am very shocked and confused, because it is not just the short hair. It is head shape, ear-set and size, and I don't think I've seen profile views or videos of this dogs movement and shape.

Having recently seen 7 or 8 rescued Yorkies about 2 or so weeks ago, I could at least see some Yorkie in them. Hey maybe they were pure Yorkies our rescue team simply didn't know for sure.

A couple had the curly coats but were basically easily identified as something Yorkie, some had the longer muzzle and sharper one - that is commonly referred to as the more "terrier type" muzzle.

One was all brown, probably sold as a "chocolate Yorkie". All needed love and care and a for-ever home.

What I found sad was that a comment was made - somewhat off-hand about hey they kind of look like ordinary Yorkies - you know we here are lucky in that we have "show" Yorkies - mostly what is out there looks more or less like these.....

Quite frankly I was aghast at the comment. It said so much without the commentator even being aware of what they said. As a member of a National Breed Club - you need to be pro-active and gawd help me shocked at what passes in the street for a Yorkie.

I think that all National Clubs of every breed should may I even say it? AGGRESSIVELY pursue and showcase what a well bred Yorkie looks like. NOT a SHOW Yorkie, but a well bred Yorkie that is not for show but for pet ownership.

If the general populance does not understand that if you pay big bucks, then at the Minimum you should be getting a dog that looks like the breed, has a great temperament and is healthy to boot!

And for the breeders, you all might hate me for saying this, but if you somehow end up with an off standard puppy, it behoves you to place this puppy at a minimum cost to a future pet home with full disclosure!

I cherish the memory and there is only one, in a huge city that I live in, where I met in a bookstore a woman with her pet Yorkie. Her Yorkie was a beautiful gal, easily identified as a Yorkie. Sound structure, pleasing temperament, beautiful silk coat. I admired that gal, and had a lovely chat with the owner.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

But it would take both parents having the recessive shorthair gene to get a shorthair puppy? That would seem to make it harder for this to happen.

Seeing the one picture I saw of one of the parents back on her original thread linked above, the ears and face are quite different from a Yorkie's, besides just the hair. Back on page 1 or 2 of that thread there was a picture. What would have to happen in the breeding to have produced that head and face in a Yorkie? More mutations or recessive genes?

Since the MARS test only goes back 3 generations, I'm guessing that there were some other breeds in the mix 4 generations or more back, on both the father's and mother's side of Minnie's pedigree. You're right, though, there is more to Minnie being an off type Yorkie than just her short hair. But to answer your question, if she does have the recessive short hair gene, it had to be carried by both parents.

[Verbena]

I have to say this thread is very interesting and I have learned a lot. I wish we could get more info on the parents. But I do not think that Christine(baboon) is coming back. It is a shame that there are breeders out there that do not breed for the benefit of the breed. We see it everyday. We only can try to teach others and hope they will teach and so on.

That is why I researched and searched for a breeder that can give me that. I am not disappointed.

[gracielove]

This thread is long but I hope that potential Yorkie buyers will read it and learn that finding a reputable Yorkie breeder is not as easy as they may think. Sometimes finding people who are not only experienced but also ethical in the dog world can be extremely difficult.

Gemy made some good points about what is being done to the quality of the Yorkshire Terrier by bad breeders. Sadly it is not only the Yorkie. The breeding of purebred dogs has become a rapidly growing sort of cottage industry in this country.

Maybe some of the experienced show/breeders here on YT could write some informative articles about what goes into a good purebred breeding program. I think it would be really helpful to those who just don't understand what a purebred is or how a purebred line is established and maintained.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by gracielove

This thread is long but I hope that potential Yorkie buyers will read it and learn that finding a reputable Yorkie breeder is not as easy as they may think. Sometimes finding people who are not only experienced but also ethical in the dog world can be extremely difficult.

Gemy made some good points about what is being done to the quality of the Yorkshire Terrier by bad breeders. Sadly it is not only the Yorkie. The breeding of purebred dogs has become a rapidly growing sort of cottage industry in this country.

Maybe some of the experienced show/breeders here on YT could write some informative articles about what goes into a good purebred breeding program. I think it would be really helpful to those who just don't understand what a purebred is or how a purebred line is established and maintained.

I agree and maybe MaggiesMom and YorkieMom1 and Amazing Yorkie could collaborate on the article.

I know what we do for our breed is complicated because of the Russian lines and the necessity of having a translator for interactions, and for other things as well.

Some things of course are pretty standard across all purebreds, but some can be unique to the YT breed.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Since the MARS test only goes back 3 generations, I'm guessing that there were some other breeds in the mix 4 generations or more back, on both the father's and mother's side of Minnie's pedigree. You're right, though, there is more to Minnie being an off type Yorkie than just her short hair. But to answer your question, if she does have the recessive short hair gene, it had to be carried by both parents.

Thank you for that answer. It seemed from a previous statement of yours that it would take both parents having that recessive short-hair gene but I just wanted to be sure I was understanding that about how a breeder might come up with a short-hair puppy with other such atypical breed features.

Regarding that parent's head shot in the old thread, would that dog's parents both have had to have a wedge-shaped head, long-muzzle gene to get that head type? And the same thing for the ear types and sets? Would it take both parents passing along those genes to create the head shape and ear types and set?

I'm so sorry to ask so many questions but if I should ever decide at some time to place a deposit on one of the puppies in some future AKC purebred Yorkshire Terrier littler and wait for the whelp, I just want to be sure one or more of them can't come out looking terribly atypical and all that wait be for naught. Even though I'd thought that a recessive gene could show up at any time, I'd still thought breeding Yorkies to one another consistently produced Yorkie-looking puppies and this thread has rattled and worried me.

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by gemy

I agree and maybe MaggiesMom and YorkieMom1 and Amazing Yorkie could collaborate on the article.

I know what we do for our breed is complicated because of the Russian lines and the necessity of having a translator for interactions, and for other things as well.

Some things of course are pretty standard across all purebreds, but some can be unique to the YT breed.

Pstinard could join in the genetic end with it, what a great idea

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by gracielove

This thread is long but I hope that potential Yorkie buyers will read it and learn that finding a reputable Yorkie breeder is not as easy as they may think. Sometimes finding people who are not only experienced but also ethical in the dog world can be extremely difficult.

Gemy made some good points about what is being done to the quality of the Yorkshire Terrier by bad breeders. Sadly it is not only the Yorkie. The breeding of purebred dogs has become a rapidly growing sort of cottage industry in this country.

Maybe some of the experienced show/breeders here on YT could write some informative articles about what goes into a good purebred breeding program. I think it would be really helpful to those who just don't understand what a purebred is or how a purebred line is established and maintained.

Here here!!! I'd love it!

And a word about DNA testing for breed type included in that article?

[gemy]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Thank you for that answer. It seemed from a previous statement of yours that it would take both parents having that recessive short-hair gene but I just wanted to be sure I was understanding that about how a breeder might come up with a short-hair puppy with other such atypical breed features.

Regarding that parent's head shot in the old thread, would that dog's parents both have had to have a wedge-shaped head, long-muzzle gene to get that head type? And the same thing for the ear types and sets? Would it take both parents passing along those genes to create the head shape and ear types and set?

I'm so sorry to ask so many questions but if I should ever decide at some time to place a deposit on one of the puppies in some future AKC purebred Yorkshire Terrier littler and wait for the whelp, I just want to be sure one or more of them can't come out looking terribly atypical and all that wait be for naught. Even though I'd thought that a recessive gene could show up at any time, I'd still thought breeding Yorkies to one another consistently produced Yorkie-looking puppies and this thread has rattled and worried me.

If that picture of the "mom" or was it a pic of the "DAD" that would be your first cause for concern, if that picture wasn't somehow off in angle or something.

And you are not the only one rattled here. So am I for both my breeds.

I have always thought that ear set and head shape kind of went hand in hand so to speak. Not ear size ie width and length of ear, but ear set, that is the distance apart from the inner ear to inner ear and the position on the head.

Like many breeds, BRT;s have some quite defined ear set, carriage and size requirements.

I hear your concern and it is a valid one. I think one of the questions you could put on your bucket list of breeder questions, is what happens if you have a litter with one or more "atypical" yorkies. That can cover a lot of ground. Predicted weight size, structure or conformation, temperament, coloration etc.

I think that future buyers as "pet" buyers need to be very clear to the breeder they are interviewing as to their expectations on what they want.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by gemy

If that picture of the "mom" or was it a pic of the "DAD" that would be your first cause for concern, if that picture wasn't somehow off in angle or something.

And you are not the only one rattled here. So am I for both my breeds.

I have always thought that ear set and head shape kind of went hand in hand so to speak. Not ear size ie width and length of ear, but ear set, that is the distance apart from the inner ear to inner ear and the position on the head.

Like many breeds, BRT;s have some quite defined ear set, carriage and size requirements.

I hear your concern and it is a valid one. I think one of the questions you could put on your bucket list of breeder questions, is what happens if you have a litter with one or more "atypical" yorkies. That can cover a lot of ground. Predicted weight size, structure or conformation, temperament, coloration etc.

I think that future buyers as "pet" buyers need to be very clear to the breeder they are interviewing as to their expectations on what they want.

Well, this buyer's experience and her threads have surely served to make a lot of us much more aware of some vital genetic issues and driven home several good points about the importance of research, how and when we buy and whom we buy from.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Thank you for that answer. It seemed from a previous statement of yours that it would take both parents having that recessive short-hair gene but I just wanted to be sure I was understanding that about how a breeder might come up with a short-hair puppy with other such atypical breed features.

Regarding that parent's head shot in the old thread, would that dog's parents both have had to have a wedge-shaped head, long-muzzle gene to get that head type? And the same thing for the ear types and sets? Would it take both parents passing along those genes to create the head shape and ear types and set?

I'm so sorry to ask so many questions but if I should ever decide at some time to place a deposit on one of the puppies in some future AKC purebred Yorkshire Terrier littler and wait for the whelp, I just want to be sure one or more of them can't come out looking terribly atypical and all that wait be for naught. Even though I'd thought that a recessive gene could show up at any time, I'd still thought breeding Yorkies to one another consistently produced Yorkie-looking puppies and this thread has rattled and worried me.

Hi, I know that there is a definitive answer for head shape, muzzle length, ear type, and set, but I might have to wait until Monday to find the best answer--I'd like to find a reference that answers all of these questions. In the meantime, here is a link to a National Geographic article which states that about 50 genes determine most of the differences between breeds, and they give a few examples of single gene traits...

How to Build a Dog - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Hi, I know that there is a definitive answer for head shape, muzzle length, ear type, and set, but I might have to wait until Monday to find the best answer--I'd like to find a reference that answers all of these questions. In the meantime, here is a link to a National Geographic article which states that about 50 genes determine most of the differences between breeds, and they give a few examples of single gene traits...

How to Build a Dog - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine

Thank you!

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Hi, I know that there is a definitive answer for head shape, muzzle length, ear type, and set, but I might have to wait until Monday to find the best answer--I'd like to find a reference that answers all of these questions. In the meantime, here is a link to a National Geographic article which states that about 50 genes determine most of the differences between breeds, and they give a few examples of single gene traits...

How to Build a Dog - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine

Ahhh, here is the link to the full text article described by the National Geographic article:

PLOS Biology: A Simple Genetic Architecture Underlies Morphological Variation in Dogs

It will take me a while to digest it, but I'll get back to you with specific answers on muzzles and ears. On my first pass, I saw that one gene determines the difference between floppy and erect ears...

[pstinard]

Layman's articles on genetics of skull shape and differences between dog breeds. I'm posting these links now so I can find the official research articles on Monday:

The Genes Behind Fido's Facial Features | Dog Anatomy | LiveScience

Genes for Dogs Breeds Discovered | LiveScience

Research article on skull shape:

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1002849

Another article on skull shape:

http://www.genetics.org/content/193/2/317.full