Has to be said.

[Lovetodream88]

I agree and it really super bothers me when they are breeding dogs that are much to small and put there lives in greater danger. I think even if the deed is already done they still need to be educated about why it was bad and then get the help they need.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by carmen in nj

I agree with the post too, BUT I feel that if advise is not given the only one to suffer is the dam and the puppies, NOT the human, I am tired too of people attacking the ignorant BYB,once the deed is done is NOT going back but help with forward... if my advise saves One dam from suffering , dying or killing her litter then my day is a good one.. FREE advise can save a life and teach a lesson..
just my .02 cents..I know this is not the popular belive here but is mine..
hugs,

I bet if we did a poll most folks would agree with you as well. No point in attacking the BYBer.

How-ever in some cases folks just don't see their response as an "attack" one. Other folks just don't care enough to temper their passion, so involved and commited to get "their" message out, that good manners are the least of their concerns. Never mind simple kindness.

For the most part on most days I too agree that my advise can save a struggling dam or puppy; my problem is what then? Will this person just go away and continue on their merry road of breeding inappropriately and with too little knowledge and no health testing in place? Am I contributing to the BYB problem? That one is a sobering thought for me.

I can count on the fingers of one hand, those folks who actually came here to research about breeding prior to doing it. I lost count ages ago of the other folks.

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by maggiesmom_2007

I understand the need to help these people that come her for advice after the fact. Like I said in the original post there are some accidents that happen. It is just very hard for me as a breeder to see so many posts about this particular subject. Especially when some come on here for advice on what to do then don't post again. True they could have been scared off by others but it could also be that they got the info they were looking for in the first place and by some stroke of luck things went well with the whelping. Those will be the ones that continue to do this. Your heart goes out to the dogs that have to go through this. My heart also goes out to the people that get puppies from them and then start having all sorts of medical issues. They then either end up with alot of heartache or the dog ends up in the shelter or in a rescue. I am a breeder that does testing to make sure my dogs are in the best health before they are bred, I also know what is behind my dogs. I carefully select a few males that I am interested in to use on my girls then I talk to my mentor and we compare the dogs to whichever girl we will be breeding. My first intention before breeding is to better the breed and in doing that I hope for my next show potential. I also show my dogs and some of my mentors dogs.

The thing is that the general public is swamped with ads by irresponsible breeders on the net and in printed form. If a person wants to buy a Yorkie and they do an internet search for Yorkie puppies hundreds of websites come up that are full of wrong information from breeders who are promoting the very thing you are speaking of. There is very little information available to the public that states the truth about what is involved in proper breeding of purebred dogs. Sadly, I see people who do not care to hear the truth. I hope that good ethical breeders will continue to bring truthful and sound info to YT so that it continues to promote the best for the Yorkshire Terrier breed.

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by maggiesmom_2007

I know without a doubt this post will not be accepted by many. But I am just so overcome with some not so nice emotions.
It stems from seeing post after post of OMG my dog is pregnant or something to that effect.
First let me say this if you don't know what your doing, meaning if you have to come on here and ask
what your supposed to do then you don't know what your doing and therefore shouldn't be attempting to breed your dogs.
I know alot of you love your dogs and spoil them , and granted not all pregnancies and whelping have bad outcomes
but if your dog does not fit the Standard of the Yorkshire Terrier and has no papers or the papers
are not with a reputable registry. Or if you have reputable papers but you are supposed to get your dog spayed or
neutered per the breeders contract, then you shouldn't put your dog through a pregnancy or mating. Yes there are some
accidents that happen. I have heard the phrase we all have to start somewhere, That's true but the ethical way
to start is by putting in your time with a breeder that you are interested in, and following their advice,
even if your like me and stubborn still do it. They have way more experience than you or I do. Dog breeding is not
a good way to let your children experience the miracle of birth.
And Just because your neighbor or friends and family say they want a Yorkie to, let them go buy their own , you did.
There is so much more to breeding than taking 2 dogs of the opposite sex and putting them together. If you don't
know what is behind your dogs with pedigrees, past generations and yes Genetics. Then you are doing a great
disservice to the Yorkie Breed. Okay off my soapbox now.


Oh and I posted in the general section because that is where most people go first.

I understand your frustration and fully agree with your post. You put your heart and soul into your breeding program and have brought great happiness into the lives of those you entrusted puppies with. I wish more breeders would do health testing, would strive to better the breed, and would have your ethics. You are making a difference and you are here educating. I believe that trying to educate is so important as well as treating others with kindness and respect, even when they are behaving irresponsibly. It's so sad that their pups and innocent babies are the ones to suffer due to their ignorance, irresponsible behaviors, or greed. It happens over and over again, and its so disheartening. Still, I know we make a difference with some people, and I never give up hope. Thank you, Lori, for what you add to the Yorkie breed.

[Lil Sis]

very good post... and a lot of "food for thought"

I agree with the op... but I also agree it carmen and gemy. If we are too "in your face you are wrong and very bad" we loose. We loose for the poor little dog that needs our help..well your help because I don't know much about welping.

I think we need to "state" our opinion because not saying anything is almost showing approval, but I get so tired of the same disproving remarks that are repeated over and over no matter what the situation is. I think some new people know how to push our buttons to get us started. I wanted to breed Remy but after a couple of days of READING good informative posts I changed my mind really fast....I did ask questions on how to get started and was treated with respect and kindness, very good information and guidance. I think back, if some of the negative remarks I have seen were made to others had been made to me I would have left yt and maybe tried breeding... who knows??? So we walk a very fine line... state our cause but don't knock them over..

Thanks for the post

[gemy]

Originally Posted by gracielove

The thing is that the general public is swamped with ads by irresponsible breeders on the net and in printed form. If a person wants to buy a Yorkie and they do an internet search for Yorkie puppies hundreds of websites come up that are full of wrong information from breeders who are promoting the very thing you are speaking of. There is very little information available to the public that states the truth about what is involved in proper breeding of purebred dogs. Sadly, I see people who do not care to hear the truth. I hope that good ethical breeders will continue to bring truthful and sound info to YT so that it continues to promote the best for the Yorkshire Terrier breed.

What a very good point. Maybe AKC, and CKC and forward thinking breed clubs could figure out how to get up and on the first 1-5 listings on a Google search. I don't even know if that is possible. Not a internet savvy person. But who knows maybe it is. then at least folks would get directed to reputable sites!

As a member of 2 breed clubs and the CKC I would gladly pay another 25 or $30 a year to make that happen.

[Verbena]

Originally Posted by gracielove

The thing is that the general public is swamped with ads by irresponsible breeders on the net and in printed form. If a person wants to buy a Yorkie and they do an internet search for Yorkie puppies hundreds of websites come up that are full of wrong information from breeders who are promoting the very thing you are speaking of. There is very little information available to the public that states the truth about what is involved in proper breeding of purebred dogs. Sadly, I see people who do not care to hear the truth. I hope that good ethical breeders will continue to bring truthful and sound info to YT so that it continues to promote the best for the Yorkshire Terrier breed.

It is really hard as a person looking for a pup to see all those pups available at different prices. I am on a budget. I have only a certain amount to spend. As tempting as it is, I understand what reputable breeders do. That is why I do not have a pup yet. I know some of it is finding the right pup. There is certain things i am looking for. (I want a Biewer.) But I am also looking in my price range. Some just want the pup and do not realize what is behind it the breeding. Education is always the best thing.

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by gemy

.... if you leave your dogs intact and fail to take the necessary precautions, well then, you PLAN to fail.

Originally Posted by carmen in nj

... if advise is not given the only one to suffer is the dam and the puppies, NOT the human, I am tired too of people attacking the ignorant BYB,once the deed is done is NOT going back but help with forward... if my advise saves One dam from suffering , dying or killing her litter then my day is a good one.. FREE advise can save a life and teach a lesson..

Originally Posted by gracielove

I would hate to see the day when YT starts to condone irresponsible breeding.

I agree with all the above.

I've never bred any animal, nor have I ever wanted to... so I have a hard time wrapping my mind around why other people choose to do it. And I definately think people should be dissuaded from wrecklessly doing so. But once the deed is done....if no help/advice is offered, its the innocent dam & pups that suffer.

[nanahas3]

I grew up with a Father who raised working dogs for hunting Bear, cougars, and raccoon, I used to always wonder as a child why he was so picky when people would ask him to stud out his dog to theirs when they were of different breeds and he would refuse them. That is until we met "old buzz". He was a half black and tan and half plot dog. I have never in my life been around a meaner dog. We kids could not get within 6 feet of him and he would act like he wanted to tear us apart. Dad said that was his reason for keeping his lines pure because you can never know what traits they will pick up mixing the breeds. Some of his friends used to ridicule him about this saying he was just crazy but he stood his ground. I guess the same is true in any breed. If we go to mixing dogs even of the same breed that we know nothing about their lineage or health issues its a crapshoot on how they will turn out. I am so thankful that I found Yorkie Talk before I made the stupid decision to try breeding because even though I grew up around it I had no clue what all was involved in it as far as health testing and such. Once again thanks to all the wonderful breeders here who take time out of their busy schedules to educate the rest of us.

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by gemy

What a very good point. Maybe AKC, and CKC and forward thinking breed clubs could figure out how to get up and on the first 1-5 listings on a Google search. I don't even know if that is possible. Not a internet savvy person. But who knows maybe it is. then at least folks would get directed to reputable sites!

As a member of 2 breed clubs and the CKC I would gladly pay another 25 or $30 a year to make that happen.

I don't know a lot about how the search thing works on the internet either. I do know that there is a way to bring any ad up to the top of a search category. I think many companies hire internet savvy people to take care of making sure they are at or near the top of the list when a search is done.

[gontygirl]

Have to agree with all you're smart opinions... I have always dreamed of breeding my two favorite dogs together (same breed) but have always known better and kept it a dream...to leave this to the breeders who know what they're doing. Human nature is never such that we all live our lives "on the same page" and without freedom of choice legal or not, so these backyard breeders and money making puppy mills, in my opinion will be around as long as humans can help it, sadly. And there are a TON of people who see this as a great business. No way will this change...as long as money is to be made and there is no large jail time consequence and/or MEGA fines nothing will change. Man created dog...and maintains it's dominante rule...

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by nanahas3

I grew up with a Father who raised working dogs for hunting Bear, cougars, and raccoon, I used to always wonder as a child why he was so picky when people would ask him to stud out his dog to theirs when they were of different breeds and he would refuse them. That is until we met "old buzz". He was a half black and tan and half plot dog. I have never in my life been around a meaner dog. We kids could not get within 6 feet of him and he would act like he wanted to tear us apart. Dad said that was his reason for keeping his lines pure because you can never know what traits they will pick up mixing the breeds. Some of his friends used to ridicule him about this saying he was just crazy but he stood his ground. I guess the same is true in any breed. If we go to mixing dogs even of the same breed that we know nothing about their lineage or health issues its a crapshoot on how they will turn out. I am so thankful that I found Yorkie Talk before I made the stupid decision to try breeding because even though I grew up around it I had no clue what all was involved in it as far as health testing and such. Once again thanks to all the wonderful breeders here who take time out of their busy schedules to educate the rest of us.

I have never raised purebred dogs but had a close family member that I spent a lot of time helping when I was younger. My family did a lot of work in obedience and agility trials. I did raise/show Himalayan cats for years and much of the genetic challenges are the same. People don't realize how much time and care is put into developing a line and keeping it pure and consistent. One miscalculation can bring unwanted results. It takes constant vigilance just to maintain much less improve the breed. The conformation and the personality characteristics decline quickly when improper breeding takes place. But who can explain that to someone who just wants to produce cute puppies?

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by gontygirl

Human nature is never such that we all live our lives "on the same page" and without freedom of choice legal or not, so these backyard breeders and money making puppy mills, in my opinion will be around as long as humans can help it, sadly. And there are a TON of people who see this as a great business. No way will this change...as long as money is to be made and there is no large jail time consequence and/or MEGA fines nothing will change. Man created dog...and maintains it's dominante rule...

I don't agree with this at all. I believe education can change things. Just because something has been a certain way in the past, doesn't mean it has to be that way in the future.

BYBs & puppymills can't make money & continue in business if people do not hand over their own money & support them. If you educate the people as to why it is wrong to support them....why buying that one cute puppy at a pet store is directly supporting a mill, then people can't continue to bury their heads in the sand.

[McheleM]

Originally Posted by carmen in nj

I agree with the post too, BUT I feel that if advise is not given the only one to suffer is the dam and the puppies, NOT the human, I am tired too of people attacking the ignorant BYB,once the deed is done is NOT going back but help with forward... if my advise saves One dam from suffering , dying or killing her litter then my day is a good one.. FREE advise can save a life and teach a lesson..
just my .02 cents..I know this is not the popular belive here but is mine..
hugs,

Carmen,
I can't offer enough thanks for your help when Allie got pregnant. It helped me tremendously, as well as my research. Without you, I wouldn't have known what to look for when she got into trouble. Even my vet thought she had another 2 weeks before she whelped. You being available to me during those moments was a Godsend and it meant a lot to me, especially knowing it was late and you're an hour ahead of me.

Thank you again!!


To the OP, sometimes things happen in people's lives and accidents occur. Had I not had cancer, I would have probably had Allie spayed months ago and she wouldn't have gotten pregnant, but my health took precedence at the time. I separated my girl the moment I saw blood, I took her to the vet and even the vet and an xray didn't give an accurate due date. Please don't judge everyone and lump everyone into the same "you're stupid and doing a great disservice to the world" category. No one is perfect and people make mistakes.

[maggiesmom_2007]

Originally Posted by lisaly

I understand your frustration and fully agree with your post. You put your heart and soul into your breeding program and have brought great happiness into the lives of those you entrusted puppies with. I wish more breeders would do health testing, would strive to better the breed, and would have your ethics. You are making a difference and you are here educating. I believe that trying to educate is so important as well as treating others with kindness and respect, even when they are behaving irresponsibly. It's so sad that their pups and innocent babies are the ones to suffer due to their ignorance, irresponsible behaviors, or greed. It happens over and over again, and its so disheartening. Still, I know we make a difference with some people, and I never give up hope. Thank you, Lori, for what you add to the Yorkie breed.

Thank you Lisa, I have made some great friends because of doing this the way it's supposed to be done. Anytime anyone breeds whether they are ethical or not they are hurting not just their dogs but also the people that buy the pups by not making sure their dogs are healthy before ever breeding. A healthy breeding pair is so much more than basic vet checkups and shots. I had someone looking for a puppy that flat out told me they didn't see why they had to have the pup fixed if they were buying it. It would be theirs to breed or not. I told them they weren't getting a pup from me and they stated they would just get one from someone else and breed it if they wanted to. It's sad that there are alot of people that would sell pups on open registration and not care and there are those that would breed their dogs regardless if they could register them or not. I agree that you should try and help out after the fact but sometimes when we try to help even if it is posted in a non rude way , it is still perceived as being rude or bashing. Sometimes the advice given is not what they want to hear.