Cesar Millan update

[Cherie6446]

The original "Holly video" was posted by Brister. Go back and look at her threads. Maybe see will see your question and steer you in the right direction.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gracielove

I agree with you to some extent. I think a lot of traditional trainers were jealous of his success. The first two seasons I saw him do some great things with dogs. The thing is that most of the problems were caused by the owners and not the dog it's self.
I also agree that exercise for dogs is very important. Most people will go out and buy a Lab or a Boxer and then expect it to be happy in the house most of the time or chained in a backyard. The animals are born to run and people treat them like little lap dogs. I shouldn't refer to lap dogs because my little fireball also needs tons of exercise to keep her a happy member of the family that is not destructive or just plain crazy.
The people I saw on Cesar's show were clueless about how to relate to a dog and it's needs.
I was shocked to see the Holly video. I had never seen him treat a dog that way. I truly feel positive reinforcement is the best way to train a dog and that being aggressive is only going to promote more aggression. Since I stopped watching the show after the first couple of years I can't say how often he did that type of thing with other animals. I am surprised they would show that clip on TV. Maybe he did get carried away with his own success and started pushing the envelope for ratings. I just felt so bad for Holly. Her owners were no help at all......as usual.

I totally agree with you on positive reinforcement and also that aggression can lead to more aggression, I differ with some in what I call "aggression". A move if done wrong could be viewed as aggressive, however, if done right could be viewed as simply a tool in which to get their attention, you can't change behavior if the dog isn't paying any attention. I do not think dog owners should be doing anything viewed as controversial.

[capt_noonie]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Cesar had no formal education and learned to rehabilitate dogs through watching pack behavior and how the alpha dog would get the aggressive dog to behave. Some people think there is no such thing as pack behavior or the alpha dog. He said he learned many things through his dog Daddy and Daddy could rehabilitate a dog much faster than he could. His theory was a true pack leader is calm and assertive, not aggressive, or passive. He became a little too popular for his own good, and I think this created a backlash for people to pick apart his methods. The alpha roll was controversial, and even though he said it shouldn’t be done without a trainer, people were doing it, and it can have mixed results and even turn a dog more aggressive. Many of Cesar’s dogs were one step away from being put down, they had tried everything, and Cesar was the last resort. He helped many of these dogs, but some of these techniques were more about television, than what the average pet owner should be doing with their dogs. Some of the methods could make a dog react in an aggressive way and so they were dangerous for the layman to do. Trainers who had formal education thought there were better ways to train and many I’m sure were upset that he appealed to so many. Most people looking for a trainer wanted a person who used Cesar’s method, not a traditional behaviorist. There was a backlash and he became more known for his controversial techniques rather than all the good techniques, and many people HATED him with a capital H. When I came to YT everyone loved him and I decided to watch his show, I thought I would dislike him, because my major was learning theory or behaviorism, but I really liked him. I think what he says about walking a dog is so important, I loved what he said about never, ever hitting a dog, I really don’t think people realize how much that still happens. I totally believe in his idea of presenting a calm assertive front by the way you act and walk, I think this really has a calming influence on animals, and even humans. I'm really unhappy that so many people had to vilify him. He's not a god, and he's not the devil. Anyway, that's my perspective on the whole thing.

I think a lot of it has to do with the TV station, how they edited the show, and how they marketed Cesar as a "brand". The bottom line is his show and Nat Geo were out to make money. I agree that other trainers were probably jealous of his success. Esp if they didn't agree with his methods. I haven't seen the Holly clip, but for the most part I agree with what he teaches, but I also agree with positive reinforcement. I think it depends on the dog and the owners. It should be a balance between the two. I personally don't see anything wrong with using alpha roll, but of course I don't think hitting is right at all. Not to say I don't use a two finger tap on occasion to get their attention.

But I don't think there is anything wrong with not having formal training to be good at something. It can go the other way too, having formal training and not be good at what you were taught.

I agree, he did get too popular too quickly. (Reminds me of how popular Guy Fieri is!) The public thought they could do what he did, even though everytime he does the poke, there's a disclaimer on the screen, pretty much saying don't try this at home. People don't read, they don't listen. Probably why they got in the situation in the first place!

[Britster]

Here is the thread with the video with Holly ... anyone watch this and tell me they are not sickened. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...own-holly.html If someone approached me in a domineering, intimidating manner and I asked them again and again and again to get out of my face and they ignored me, kept coming at me, and backed me into a corner, would I be explosive if I shoved them away from me? It's not the dog's fault... we as humans can explain through words, and can shove, or hit. For a dog a hit or a shove is a bite. That dog showed incredible patience and gave plenty of warning signs.

Here is a great link: The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour was so concerned with the rampant 'dominance' beliefs they put this statement out http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

Some other great reads: Wolf Status and Dominance in Packs -Alpha Status
Why you should forget the idea of dominance/pack theory as relates to you and your dog. Also why punishing bad behaviour is often worse than doing nothing. (as promised) : dogs

My issue with Cesar is not that he has had no "training". I could care less. Some of my favorite trainers have had no 'schooling' in dog training. Keep in mind, I'm somewhat of a 'crossover' as I used to defend Cesar to no end. I'm so glad I opened my eyes. If anyone EVER touched my dog the way he does to dogs, they'd have their face kicked in by me. Jackson is one of the most well behaved dogs that I know, and yes I'm biased, lol, but it's true, he really is. His biggest issue is he will alert bark when someone new walks in the door. He stops when I tell him 'enough'. If Cesar walked in my door, and started 'cshh'ing and poking him, Jackson would completely have a breakdown and probably never trust people again. All it takes it for the new person to walk in, let them sniff his hand, maybe give him a treat, I let him know it's okay and all is well with the world. It breaks my heart to see how the dogs will cower into 'submission' and it makes me think if MY dog was in that situation.

Cesar torments dogs .... he gets them into defensive behavior, agitates them on purpose to push them past their limit, and then hurts them for it (gets them into trouble). The psychological damage he causes dogs is ridiculous. They live in a constant state of worry, stress and helplessness. Chronic stress, as most know, does a lot of harm to living beings both physiologically and psychologically ... raises blood pressure, respiration rate, and heart rate, increases cortisol levels and adrenalin, among other physically damaging things when they're so high and constant. He literally knows nothing about dog behavior and goes on and on about how 'dominant' a dog is without paying any attention the signs a dog is giving us. I can't believe that at one time I was so blind to not see it while watching his show. REALLY learn about dog behavior - read and study up on canine body language and then watch Cesar's show ... even better... watch it in silence! Watch the dogs body language when interacting with Cesar.

Yes I love that he preaches exercise and being calm. But honestly? That's about it these days. After seeing the Holly video, which is a recent video, I was totally done with him. It's very odd to me because he does truly seem to love dogs, but it's like his pride and ego can't get in the way and say 'I was wrong' and try to listen to the current SCIENCE of dog training. He's got to have this macho domineering image. Just let it go, dude.

I really like this video as well: Why Cesar Millan is Yesterday's Dog Trainer - YouTube

[Britster]

Another great video of Cesar with Holly slow-mo'ed with captions. Someone tell me this is okay to do to a dog ...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4655581307021

[Connie]

I love Cesar and read about this on his site. I am so glad that he's overcome his depression and able to look up again!

[gracielove]

One difference between Zack and Cesar is that Cesar deals with behavior issues and Zack is truly a trainer. Cesar would go in where dogs were having behavior issues and try to correct them. He would call in a trainer if a dog needed to be taught obedience. As I said I only watched the first 2 seasons of the Dog Whisperer show and they did not get into this dominance thing so much at that time. I don't think the show would ever have become so popular if they had shown things like the Holly video very often.

I do believe a dog feels much more secure when they know there is a leader. Teaching basic obedience with positive reinforcement gives the dog direction and a dog that tends to feel like it must control situations will realize that the owner is giving it signals on how to react. However, being domineering is a whole different issue and it sickens me to see that.

Zack seems to love his dogs and thinks of them as friends while Cesar seems to want to deal with a dog as an opponent. Maybe Cesar has spent too much time trying to be on top and has lost the concept of "whisperer." The very idea of a "whisperer" is to communicate with an animal without cruel and excessive behavior. A "whisperer" would watch for reactions and work with them rather than against the very nature of the animal. I am just amazed that he put a shock collar on a dog! He must have lost his mind completely!

Zack has also stated that he is against many of the traditional training methods that people use that involve physical punishment and loud verbal abuse. I agree. I have seen some trainers that hate Cesar's methods and yet they are doing the same type of thing only using choke collars and other methods of domineering the animal.

Right now I have the smallest dog I have ever had and yet she has the biggest personality that I have ever dealt with in a dog. We have had our issues concerning who is in charge in the home when she was a youngster. While it was a challenge to deal with there was never any need to bully her. She did need lots of exercise and training. Things to keep her mind stimulated so she stayed out of trouble. One of the things I see that owners of terriers do not realize is that the dogs have a strong need to have a purpose in life even though they are small. The energy level needs an outlet and if it is not dealt with properly the owner is going to have problems. Many people buy small dogs because they want an "easy" dog that is not going to require a lot of time and energy. A terrier is not the dog for that kind of person. Cesar's aggressive techniques would not have worked in my home though I do agree with the walk and other exercise requirements for a dog.

It is frightening to me to think of thousands and maybe millions of people watching Cesar on TV and thinking they should treat their own pets like he is doing. So many dog owners are already so clueless about dog behavior to begin with.

[Tessa327]

Originally Posted by Cherie6446

I know some of us bashed Cesar for the "Holly video" but I just read that he attempted suicide after losing Daddy and his wife filing for divorce. I'm always sad when anyone finds themselves so hopeless that they try to take their life. On Nat Geo on the 25th there will be a Cesar Millan story and I will watch it. He tells how he recovered from this and did not rely on antidepressants to improve his life.
We may not agree on his method of rehabilitating dogs for he is doing what he believes is right. I wish him the best.

Regardless of what people think, I like Cesar. I had no idea he had issues. Thanks for the info. Will definitely watch Nat Geo. It airs on the 25th of November, right?

[Lisa and Pic]

I haven't kept up with everything Cesar, but I certainly learned many things from his show before we could not get it anymore on our cable channels here in Ky. So sorry that he has had so many problems.

I do believe that dog trainers can be soooo nasty about other people in their field. It really is kind of interesting how that works.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Britster

Here is the thread with the video with Holly ... anyone watch this and tell me they are not sickened. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...own-holly.html If someone approached me in a domineering, intimidating manner and I asked them again and again and again to get out of my face and they ignored me, kept coming at me, and backed me into a corner, would I be explosive if I shoved them away from me? It's not the dog's fault... we as humans can explain through words, and can shove, or hit. For a dog a hit or a shove is a bite. That dog showed incredible patience and gave plenty of warning signs.

Here is a great link: The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour was so concerned with the rampant 'dominance' beliefs they put this statement out http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

Some other great reads: Wolf Status and Dominance in Packs -Alpha Status
Why you should forget the idea of dominance/pack theory as relates to you and your dog. Also why punishing bad behaviour is often worse than doing nothing. (as promised) : dogs

My issue with Cesar is not that he has had no "training". I could care less. Some of my favorite trainers have had no 'schooling' in dog training. Keep in mind, I'm somewhat of a 'crossover' as I used to defend Cesar to no end. I'm so glad I opened my eyes. If anyone EVER touched my dog the way he does to dogs, they'd have their face kicked in by me. Jackson is one of the most well behaved dogs that I know, and yes I'm biased, lol, but it's true, he really is. His biggest issue is he will alert bark when someone new walks in the door. He stops when I tell him 'enough'. If Cesar walked in my door, and started 'cshh'ing and poking him, Jackson would completely have a breakdown and probably never trust people again. All it takes it for the new person to walk in, let them sniff his hand, maybe give him a treat, I let him know it's okay and all is well with the world. It breaks my heart to see how the dogs will cower into 'submission' and it makes me think if MY dog was in that situation.

Cesar torments dogs .... he gets them into defensive behavior, agitates them on purpose to push them past their limit, and then hurts them for it (gets them into trouble). The psychological damage he causes dogs is ridiculous. They live in a constant state of worry, stress and helplessness. Chronic stress, as most know, does a lot of harm to living beings both physiologically and psychologically ... raises blood pressure, respiration rate, and heart rate, increases cortisol levels and adrenalin, among other physically damaging things when they're so high and constant. He literally knows nothing about dog behavior and goes on and on about how 'dominant' a dog is without paying any attention the signs a dog is giving us. I can't believe that at one time I was so blind to not see it while watching his show. REALLY learn about dog behavior - read and study up on canine body language and then watch Cesar's show ... even better... watch it in silence! Watch the dogs body language when interacting with Cesar.

Yes I love that he preaches exercise and being calm. But honestly? That's about it these days. After seeing the Holly video, which is a recent video, I was totally done with him. It's very odd to me because he does truly seem to love dogs, but it's like his pride and ego can't get in the way and say 'I was wrong' and try to listen to the current SCIENCE of dog training. He's got to have this macho domineering image. Just let it go, dude.

I really like this video as well: Why Cesar Millan is Yesterday's Dog Trainer - YouTube

While I believe that someone can be “good” at something they do without formal education, it’s impossible to be be an expert, unless it’s a brand new field. You have to know what others have learned and their opinions to be considered an expert. Sure his experience is valuable, but it has limitations. Had he had formal education he would have learned that while aversive punishment does work and works fast, it may cause side effects. Furthermore, some aversive techniques are better than others and studies have shown that animals seem to have a sense of “fairness” about the techniques used on them. Another advantage of formal education is you will find that at the top of the knowledge pole, things are rarely black and white, you always seem to have multiple views that could be true and exceptions to rules, but this grey area makes more learning possible.

[yorkietalkjilly]

I always wonder how many of those behind-the-leg side kicks he teaches people to use to get their dog's attention when on lead turn out to get pretty old landing over the ribs when they are a tad too hard and keep on happening time after time. Or that poking done by someone who's not really into training that day and the dog knows it and is romping around, getting pokes every so often. Not many dog owners have the patience Cesar Millan exhibits on his show and when their dog keeps on acting up or dodges their kicks or pokes and pulls away, keeps pulling or shows some teeth, growls, I wonder how many tempers get lost and the kicks and pokes become pretty hard and impatient. That technique for "snapping" a dog out of his misbehaving and his alpha rolls are my main concern with his techniques for dealing with behavior problems. I wonder truly how many dogs have bitten their owners or felt scared and wanted to bite from the constant use/misuse of these techniques on them.

[Joyce Adams]

I've always liked Cesar and I'm saddened that he had to go through something like that.