Why 12 Weeks?
 

I am not posting this to get a rise out of others.. though I am sure that there are some that think I post what I do, just for such reasons.. I'm genuinely curious.
To me, a dog is a dog, it doesn't matter if it's 15 lbs or 150 lbs.. I've had them from both ranges. And I have bred dogs in the past, did pretty good in the shows with my line and they were generally quite healthy.

What confuses me, is this. I have heard reasons that people give for not sending the puppy home until 12 weeks, and to be really honest, the only one that makes sense is that toys have a greater chance of hypoglycemic episodes until about 16 weeks, give or take.

Really, it sounds to me that everything else.. Learning bite inhibition, housebreaking, and so forth... is a bit of a cop out. After all, MOST other breeders send their puppies on at 8 weeks. And the breeds that have the LEAST amount of bite inhibition (in my opinion only) seem to BE the toys.

I have raised many dogs, and I will grant, it was always easier to house break a puppy when I had adults around to help teach the puppy, but that doesn't mean that I am (or others are) incapable of housebreaking a puppy without the assistance of an adult dog in the house. Or that puppies won't learn without momma around to teach them.

Actually, the easiest puppies to house break were the ones that I had to bottle raise, I guess because they were always right there.

As for bite inhibition... Part of that, in my opinion, is your own personal training. After all, it doesn't matter how well the puppy learned from it's littermates if, when you bring the puppy home, you let it walk all over you.
That brings me something else to mind. Stillwell and Millan.. Stillwell likes to do the "pretend you're a littermate and yelp really high pitched when your dog gets too rough with you, and turn away and stand still". That always bothered me, because basically, you're telling the dog we're equals, and that gives the dog a chance to decide that he wants to be ahead of you.
Millan, on the other hand, "this is what the momma dog does when the puppy misbehaves, because she is a the pack leader to the puppy". More my speed, I think. If I am my dogs mommy, and her owner, and her pack leader, I have to approach from a position of authority.

And having raised many dogs, having had many puppies... Having even gotten them as young as 2 weeks.. That whole teaching them bite inhibition thing doesn't make sense to me, because I have never had a dog that would even THINK about biting a human over anything... Biting other dogs... Well.. some of them would.. but that wasn't bite inhibition, that was dog aggression plain and simple.

But for medical reasons.. yes, I can see that. Pixie came home at 8 weeks, 3 days. While I stayed on top of constantly offering her food, most of what I offered her, she actually didn't seem to recognize as food. And a few nights after I got her, she did have a hypoglycemic episode. Had I not been alert, and had I not known the symptoms, things could have gone very badly for her. As it stands, I caught it almost as soon as it started, and other than one or two other times, when she played too hard, she's never had another episode.

However, that means that a professional yorkie person shouldn't have an issue letting pups go at 8 weeks to another professional yorkie person. Yet I see people that have a lot of experience with yorkies saying that they would not take an 8 week old puppy.. And I'm confused as to why. My thoughts say if you know yorkies, then you know how to prevent and watch for hypoglycemia. And if you have adult dogs, there is the house breaking portion of the reasons given.. And well.. bite inhibition.. How many yorkies are singletons? Besides, adult dogs do just as good a training for bite inhibition (if not better) than littermates.

Again, I'm not asking this to stir the pot, I genuinely DON'T get the whole 12 week thing. Not for the reasons given, except for one. And I'd really like to understand.

Sounds like pot stirring to me.

This is going to get a whole lot of people going down the nasty road. And it may confuse some new yorkie owners.IMHO.

All I am going to say on this is I personally do not send my pups to their new homes before 12 weeks of age regardless of whether the person is an experienced Yorkie person or not.
I like to make sure my pups have at the very least had 2 sets of shots, are pad trained, have their teeth in order to eat dry kibble. And for me the bite inhibition and other stuff you pointed out is not a cop out. Besides for me I show my Yorkies so unless I know without a doubt that some are going to be pets they stay with me til at the very least 6 months.

In your explanation, you yourself gave a reason why a pup should no be removed before 12 weeks.
At 8 weeks old, your pup didn't know what food was and had a hypoglycemic episode. Even before joining YT, I had read or heard pups learn about solid foods through their mom. Knowing that, and reading your own testimony, wouldn't Pixie have learned what you were offering her was food if her mother had taught her that? Just asking.

"As for bite inhibition... Part of that, in my opinion, is your own personal training. After all, it doesn't matter how well the puppy learned from it's littermates if, when you bring the puppy home, you let it walk all over you."

I have no idea what you mean by this. So, a dog that is properly raised with his/her parents and comes from a good environment is going to come home to you and start biting you all of a sudden? What would be the justification for this? I do not see the link at all.

Reputable breeders care what situation they are sending the puppy into thats why. Even if you dont believe in bite inhibition or the socialization values of a puppy staying with the mom untill 12 weeks, you agree there is a health value to it. Isnt that reason enough? I tell you if you had been on this forum for any period of time and saw a new owner dealing with hypoglycemia or coccidia or giardia with a pup too young and struggle and sometimes loose them your outlook would be alot different. Why shouldnt they be with the breeder who is experienced with dealing with these issues. I thinl the tiny ones need to stay longer than 12 weeks even. Your going to have difficulty convincing anyone over to your way of thinking when reputable breeders time and time again advocate keeping them untill at least 12 weeks and its the back yard breeders who just want to make a buck let them go to their homes too young

As a potential puppy buyer, I would prefer to get an older puppy that has spent more time with its littermates and mother than just 6 or 8 weeks and 16 weeks sounds perfect to me. There is plenty of time to adjust to and train a dog after that and I have the rest of my days to spend with it. All of the training and behavior clues my puppy can get from mommie and siblings those first 4 months can only be more helpful to pup so I will gladly wait for my next pup. And that is not to mention the hypoglocemic issues and other things you can't spot in a very young pup. I'm for bringing home an older pup.

Very good points! I don't understand where this notion that an older dog doesn't bond, or learn well from it's new owners. Mine was definitely not a puppy, and he is almost perfect. Most of his issues are brought on by fear, and even those are fading. Any dog can be taught to be an amazing companion.

I think this could be an interesting discussion if it were conducted with some trust and humor on both sides, which I don't think will happen.

However, Belle Noir, you say that in your experience, small dogs have the worst bite inhibition - this could argue that small dogs SHOULD have an extra four weeks to learn inhibition, since they apparently don't pick up on it as quickly.

BTW, I totally disagree with your comments on Cesar Milan, but since that doesn't appear to be the main thrust of your post, I won't comment further. There's lots of discussion on this topic in Training.

I agree older dogs can be taught to be amazing companions. I have had rescue dogs, and they have mostly been seniors.
They can certainly bond with new owners and learn well. (I get video's of Reno (you all remember Reno) on a regular basis and he has certainly bonded with his new owner and his new fur siblings.

I got Beamer when he was a year old. Didn't take long for him to bond with us - and the beauty of it was that he was well trained by his breeder. Heck he was even trained to be groomed daily and as soon as he saw me get ready to put his bow in, his head went down facing me just waiting for me to put his bow in. If we ever got another Yorkie it would be an older one and not a puppy.

Well, I'm with you on this!

I would much rather get my pup at 8 weeks than 12. For me, that cute puppy stage is such an amazing & short period, and the longer puppy period I get the better. I'd rather have that extra month with my puppy!

I've never had a problem with bite inhibition, housebreaking, or other behaviour issues with a dog....and the more I read about them on here the stronger I feel it has alot more to do with the person raising the pup than the pup itself (just like any other form of parenting...) Given a choice, I want my pup as soon as it's able to eat kibble!

Well from my point of view; first if the YTCA a respected breed club, with hundreds of years of combined breed experience recommends 12wks and 2 pounds; that is pretty persuasive to me, that it is in the best interests of the puppy and new puppy owner.

I think that 2lbs is still very tiny, but I'm thankful that my pup didn't come home when he only weighed a pound!. It is my understanding that the smaller weight wise a pup is the more danger of hypogylcemia.

A quality breeder of Yorkies, during that "additional" 4 wk or more period, can make a huge difference in the nature and character of the puppy. Basic obedience, hard food eating, learning more to focus on humans, she even begins leash training (in house), and toy motivation skills. But if the breeder doesn't add valuable life lessons to the puppy, still the puppy can learn more from Mom and siblings.

Funny my breeder and I were just having a discussion about best age to take puppy home. One pretty salient point she made was, if the breeder does no training of pup (and here specifically we were talking about older pups 4mths on), then it is best if pup goes to owner earlier so this can be done. As a breeder she has often had to deal with Yorkies who come to her at an older age and know nothing but kennel life.
It takes much time to socialize these dogs, give them confidence when outside, but certainly can be done.
I'd certainly wouldn't hesitate to take an older dog from Ilona.

I've gotten two dogs at 8 weeks and one at 12 weeks (our fourth is a rescue and was an adult when she came home).

My 8 weekers were almost unbearable nippers in the beginning. It took a while to teach them not to nip.

My 12 weeker- no nipping.

One 8 weeker and my 12 weeker had a hard time potty-training. My other 8 weeker came to us potty-trained and hasn't had an accident since.

None of my dogs have had a hypoglycemia event, which must have been a stroke of luck because we knew nothing when we brought our first girl home.

The breeder I got my last puppy from holds them until 16 weeks.

My Jilly was 4 1/2 mos. when I got her and Tibbe was 9 mos. and I could not have been closer to either than I was with Jilly during her life and am with Tibbe. Neither of them turned out to be nippers or anything like that because they both had behavioral modification training and both became dream dogs as to their conduct and attitudes.

Personally, I would be scared to death to bring a 6 or 8 week old puppy home with all the risks plus knowing what it could be missing as to good old Mother Nature training by mom and littermates in the setting the pup was born into. I believe in giving the more natural way of letting the canine family structure educate and nurture a pup along with the input of the breeder until the baby has matured a bit into its own sense of self. That's when I can better tell what kind of a dog I am probably looking at as to temperament, plus, of course, conformity. Let momma dog keep her babies in her nest a while and let the pups grow and flourish under her care is my preference. I'll still have years and years to enjoy him.

Why 12 Weeks ? I follow the YTCA recommendations and guide lines. I have never seen any adverse effects because a puppy wasn't adopted until they were at least 12 weeks old. Do I believe that all puppies should be placed at 12 weeks ? No. I think some could be placed earlier and be fine and I think some benefit more by staying with the breeder an extra two or three weeks beyond the 12 week age. I feel strongly that every breeder should pay attention to their breed club's recommendations which are based on years and years of combined experience. I know I do not always have an answer. More often than not, I can find someone who has more experience, or can suggest research I can study. If I am in the minority about something, concerning Yorkies I would much rather be safe than sorry. If everyone is telling me the same thing, I pay attention.

So asking a question I genuinely don't get the reasons given for is pot stirring?

I am sure that there are going to be some people that chose to get nasty over a question. That's their choice. Fortunately, I have a thick skin. Those that offer information, I'll accept, and those that want to be nasty, I'll not reply in kind, but I will explain myself.
And yes, it may confuse some people, but it may also help to clarify things to others.

Very good! This is the kind of answer I was looking for. Being assured of at least two sets of shots is a very valid reason. Making sure they have their teeth in is another.
And of course, being assured of the potential show quality of an individual is important as well. Thank you for your input.

Pixie is not my first puppy. My first yorkie puppy, yes, but not my first puppy. I have raised many dogs over 20 years, from those that stayed with their mothers their whole lives, to those that had to be taken from their mother and hand reared at 2 days old (mom was an EVIL puppy killer.. had I known that, I wouldn't have taken her own, took out half the litter, and I THOUGHT she'd laid on them, until I caught her grabbing and shaking one to death).
Never, until now, have I not known a puppy at 8 weeks old to not recognize food as food. NEVER. I actually questioned her age, in part because of her size, but in part, because in my experience puppies at 8 weeks should know what food is.
I realize that many people raise their dogs differently.. And with the hindsight I have of Pixie likely being a mill puppy.. yes, it would make sense that she wouldn't recognize food. But never have I ever had a house reared puppy not know what food was at 8 weeks. And I was told she was a home reared puppy.
To answer your question, I really don't know. I always start offering gruel to puppies starting 4 weeks. Mom is never there, because the greedy hags would steal the babies gruel, and I have always had puppies dive in their gruel the first time it's offered, if not, the second time. Because of thieving mothers, my puppies never were taught what food was by momma, I never fed my puppies around their mothers. I never fed the mommas around the puppies either. Not until they were much older and integrated into the pack.
By the way, the hypoglycemic episode wasn't from her not recognizing food. She ate what I was advised to feed her VERY well (Gerber's Chicken).. It was the OTHER foods she didn't know was food (Cesear's Puppy). It was because she and I had had a play session and she played too much, and I let her take a nap without feeding her first.
I thought I had made it clear, it was in part because she played too hard, just as the other one or two times she had a hypoglycemic episode, but reading what I wrote, I see that I didn't. My apologies.

What I mean by that is no matter how well behaved a puppy is when you bring it home, IF you are an owner that spoils your dog, and doesn't correct bad behavior, NONE of the lessons the puppy learned at it's breeders home are going to stick with the puppy. This includes bite inhibition.
No the puppy isn't going to all of a sudden start biting you. It's slower and more subtle than that.. and next thing you know, you have a Nu Nu, or a Bandit (Cesar Millan fans will recognize the names, lol).

First, let me say this.
Health concerns are reason enough, to me. I don't have a problem with this general rule of thumb, I am just trying to understand it. That is why I said I understood breeders not wanting the puppies to leave until they were mostly past the likelihood of juvenile hypoglycemia. My COE mentors have even said that as tiny as Pixie is, they wouldn't have let her go until 14-16 weeks.
It is the OTHER reasons given I am trying to understand by asking for more information as to why people think and feel the way they do.
I am also not trying to convince anyone to my way of thinking. Explaining why I think two of the main reasons given makes no sense to me is NOT me trying to convince everyone I am right, it is just giving my opinions based on my experience.
And again, I freely state that my experience, though just as extensive as some people here, is NOT with toys. I am WILLING to learn, I am WILLING to "change my mind" if you would, based on what I do learn. The funny thing is this. I am not actually even considering breeding. Been there, done that, have the wall of ribbons and trophies to reminisce on. I am just trying to understand why yorkie (and perhaps other toy breeders.. I don't know, I haven't been trawling through Chihuahua forms to see what they say) breeders do what they do, and codify them with what I know from my own personal experience.
I didn't even get into the socialization aspect, but in my opinion if the only socialization a puppy is getting is within the home pack, the puppy isn't actually being socialized to other dogs, just to the dogs in the home pack. This is why I believe in taking puppies out and about and introducing them to the greater world at large. Without momma.
Especially considering some mommas, even the nicest ones, might be wary of other dogs and strange people approaching her babies and may act fearful and/or aggressive.. which isn't what you want the puppies to learn.
Coccidia or giardia are not age issues, they're cleanliness issues. Never in 20 years have I had a puppy with either, but guess what... I have helped MANY people deal with both issues. And never did one of those puppies come from a good place. I am not saying that it's not possible. Of course it is.. We can track who knows what on our feet and clothes, and next thing you know, we have an epidemic in our homes, running through our dogs.
But when you read on these stories, you'll see a reoccurring theme. Backyard breeder/puppy mill product.. Tons of dogs of different breeds... Puppy sold without contract or contract the protects the greeder only. The age of the puppy is incidental, except for that should the puppy have been older, it would have likely survived. And the buyer wouldn't have had to deal with a sick puppy.
However, the age of the puppy wasn't the REASON the puppy got sick in the first place. The conditions the puppy was raised in was the cause of the sickness.

I actually prefer older puppies myself. I actually prefer adults, lol. Before Pixie there was an adult yorkie I was working with the owner on, but it didn't work out, and an elderly Papillon that also didn't work out.
The Yorkie went back to his breeder, as it was never set in stone, and I advised them to check with the breeder first, before I headed to go and get him, and I didn't get the paperwork in on time for the Pappy.
I actually haven't noticed much difference between puppies raised with and without siblings, except, (and there are going to be many that disagree) in the negative, as I have noticed that pups raised with siblings can be "pack bound" and insecure/fearful without their sibs to "back them". Not all of them are... But enough for me to note a difference. Again, this is with non toys. I have the thought that perhaps because of the coddling we tend to give tiny cute dogs, that it is perhaps the opposite with toys when they are with their littermates.. But then again, sometimes they don't have littermates, as I have stated, singltons are not uncommon.
I am not knocking anyone for making this choice, I am trying to understand it. My experience compared to theirs, and coming to an understanding.. Like driving in Europe. Yes, the mechanics are the same, but the experience is different. I am trying to understand the difference.

I agree, that is a lot of bollocks. Some of the BEST dogs are ones that came to me as adults. Tank comes to mind.. I mentioned him here before. Velvet was 9 when I got her, and for 4 years, my perfect companion. Even those I have gotten younger at 2-6 years old bonded with me, and I with them.

I have a sense of humor!! I promise I do!!! Sadly, though, there are some that think I have an agenda, or something. I actually posted this because I wanted to hear the reasons, and have a conversation on them. I have given my experience, and why I think somethings don't make sense to me. But I am willing to listen and to learn from those that have a greater amount of experience in this breed than I do. I am trying to take advantage of the collective experience of the people here on YT and LEARN. And for me, learning doesn't mean taking things at face value, it means asking questions. And some of those questions are going to fall outside of the party line, and make some uncomfortable. I'm sorry for that, but I am here to learn and that means asking uncomfortable questions sometimes.
Health reasons should above all be the number one concern for any breeder and any buyer. Hypoglycemia should be a great concern, especially for the tinies. And that makes sense to me.
It's the other reasons I'm having trouble grokking.. And part of it is my lack of experience with Yorkies.

As for having another 4 weeks with littlermates to learn bite inhibition.. That would depend on if the puppy was with their littermates for 12-16 weeks, or not.
That would actually be an interesting survey... Do you have a toy dog? At what age did you acquire your toy dog? Is your toy dog nippy towards others? lol

I think that we can agree that most people that train dogs, do it because they feel they are doing the best they can to help dogs. Even if we don't agree on their training methods... By the way, look up Charlie Murphy Cesar Millon on youtube... If you can find it, it is just about the funniest thing I have ever seen said about him.


Thank you everyone I have answered so far. I would continue, and I will, but I have to get ready for my class. I haven't yet read all the replies, but I will.
I appreciate those of you that see my asking this as a way for me to gain knowledge, and didn't automatically feel as though I am trying to start trouble. And I greatly appreciate everyone who did answer me.
Even though I haven't read all that was posted yet, those posts I have read have given me something to think on., so again, thank you...
And I'll see you all in a couple hours.

Well I think Belle Noir asked some good questions, and defended herself very well! I nean I don't see how she was stirring th pot, but if that's the way you see it then so be it. And I laughed because I could just imagine some of you getting all offended in front of your computer screens lol!! Like "how dare sge ask a question about something she doesn't understand!!" Haha!

But I agree with some of you, its recommended, the part about the shots, and teeth..
This really could be a good thread.

I git Rizzo older, he was 14 weeks and I never had an issue with him nipping, he potty trained pretty quick but we have an accident once in a blue moon. While yorkie puppies are freakin cute, honestly I'm glad I got Rizzo older because I got to avoid a lot of the bad behavior that I've read about here from people that got their pup too early.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I will say that I got Jackson at 9 weeks old but by that point, he was already almost 6lbs. He never had a biting problem, ever. He also was very easy to house break. I was glad that he did not have another three weeks in the house he was at and that I got him to MY house sooner. Not that it was a "bad" house per day... but she was not a good breeder, and never did any type of socializing, or any of that, and I think he would have been even more shy had he been left there until 12 weeks old. I think he was better off being with me.

However, I think a pup should be with it's mother until 12 weeks in most situations, no matter what the breed. I think it would be very beneficial to any pup, honestly.

On the other side of things, my dad got his JRT/Shihtzu mix at the age of 7 weeks and she was a terrible biter. You could not even play with her for the first few months because she'd constantly just bite you. She still is not potty trained properly and goes in the house practically every day at 4 years old. She's very growly and will still bite if she is annoyed. However, I don't really think this was necessarily a matter of being taken too young, but a training issue.

So who knows, really.

So you would rather get your puppy at 8 weeks because they are cute and you want more time with it even though you will have many many years with them? Rather then it being 12 weeks and more socialized (with litter and mother) and taught things from its mother and healthier really?

My main reason is the shots. I had a 8 wk old parvo puppy, and will never again bring home a puppy that hasn't had at least 2 sets of shots.


Allie was 16 wks when I got her (btw, she was "discounted" because of her age) Noah was 7 wks ( I got them the same time from the same breeder) and Westley was 12 weeks exactly. I have never had any problems with Allie or Westley. Noah's parvo treatment was an emotional and monetary roller coaster, it's stunted his growth, and his tummy is still not 100%. All because he was too young to be taken out of his environment and introduced to another.

I have never agreed with taking a pup away from mom before 10 weeks for any breed-and honestly, I think people who do are only doing it for the money.

Yes! I want that puppy time and don't want to miss out on a week that I don't absolutely have to! Just like if I was adopting a baby I'd want it as a newborn rather than a toddler.

I don't believe a puppy is "healthier" at 12 weeks than it is at 8 weeks. The puppy is healthy or it is not. It may be bigger, stronger, but not healthier.

And yes again... I want to be the one to train my puppy, not the breeder. I'd rather not have to correct other's training to suit me. I'd prefer to start the pup out as we mean to go on in my home. By the time you'd expect to get your puppy, I'd expect mine to be completely house broken.

Not even going to touch this one. Have fun, gals.

Oh...come on Taryn!!! We're all entitled to our opinion. Besides...your hands are gonna turn blue if you keep sitting on them :D

My bum's not that big!!! :p:p

So you would expect to have your puppy house broken at 12 weeks old?

This sounds like the explanation my breeder gives who has been breeding for over 30 years. Back when I got my first yorkie, I thought I was doing the right thing not buying from a pet shop. This was almost 15 years ago. I got an 8 week old from a BYB (didn't know any better at the time). I can see a BIG difference in dog temperament, self esteem, manners, bite inhibition, ease in traveling, anxiety, etc., buying from a breeder who knows what they are doing and keeps the dogs until later.

I also think we should consider that the YTCA also makes the recommendation that pups should not be placed before 12 weeks of age for a variety of reasons.

At the latest! Potty-training has never been an issue with any dog I've had. But, I'll readily admit, it's not a miracle...I do put the training time in, and completely clear my schedule so I'm available 24/7 for the first few weeks.