Sorry but I do not believe you can have a dog 100% potty trained by 12 weeks.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

mine is 4mon and still not 100% potty trained

Different breeds different needs...you have to understand that before anyone can explain anything else to you IMHO>

12 WEEK is A MINIMUM! As someone else noted 16 weeks even...

If you want a genuine answer otherwise please search 12 weeks on the search function here and do a lot of reading.

Why the heck does everyone want a puppy anyways I want a fully trained dog (younger not infantile) no issues breeders you to send you dog potty trained, doing sit stay leash walking etc etc at a much older age like 6 months! Think about it grown not loosing teeth, pee or pooh non crazy chewing fur ball next time I adopt-what's the thoughts on that?

Ha! I think that's brilliant!!!

Well, I'm sure as hell not lying!

Baring health issues, there is absolutely no physical reason why a dog cannot be potty trained by 12 weeks. You're talking the opportunity for reinforcement, multiple times per day, every day, for a MONTH. How would you not expect it to be trained? And if it's not, I'd say the problem lies with the owner, not the pup! And the longer such behaviour goes on the more difficult it will be to correct...which again..is why I'd rather have my pup as young as possible because I don't find pee/pooping in my house, anywhere other than potty pads, acceptable.

I do believe a dog CAN be potty trained by 12 weeks old. It's certainly possible. I know lots of large breed dogs who are potty trained by that age. But I admit I haven't met a small dog who was 100% by then. I think it's absolutely wonderful to expect it and work hard enough for it, but I also don't believe that if a 13 week old dog has an accident in the house, it makes the owner a bad trainer or owner.

I had a wonderful schedule with Jackson when I first brought him home. I was lucky that I was on winter break and able to be with him a lot. We had a fantastic schedule where I tried not to set him up to fail at all and worked really hard with him. By 5 months, he knew all sorts of commands/tricks already, he was almost trustworthy. But just because my 6 month old dog had an occasional poop accident in the house did not make me an incompetent trainer. It's VERY normal for a dog to regress in any sort of training as well as going through those 'teenage' phases. I know someone with a Border Collie (who are the smartest breed out there) who began pottying in the house again at 7 months old... fantastic dog owner and trainer, but still, accidents happen.

I do think one should not have an adult dog constantly pottying in the house... every day would not be acceptable for me. My dads dog poops in the house once or twice a day, but whenever I am there, all I have to do is WALK her outside and make SURE she goes. Then she gets praise. I try, but my dad is too lazy, lol. So in that case, it's the owner being stupid.

Good point Brit! I'm being narrow-minded thinking soley of my own situation. All my dogs have been pad trained. I forget about those that outdoor train. A dog of mine has never had to wait to go potty (other than at night), they just have to know where I expect them to go. I forget about the ones that have to hold it & wait for the owner to get home to go outside. It probably is a whole different experience when it comes to potty-training. Ooops...my bad!

Well, you are in the minority then, because I find that most people who pad train have dogs that are never 100%. lol. I don't think I'd ever pad train a dog unless I was working super long hours and could not get a dog out in some way or the dog had a medical problem. I don't like pee and poop in the house at all (even on a pad). So I commend you!

I do want to add a few things. By the time a litter at my house is getting pretty steady on their feet they have already started potty training 101. so that by the time 12 weeks rolls around all the new owner needs to do is put the pad down and put the gates up and have a potty party each time the pup goes where it's supposed to. If you reinforce good behavior the puppy no matter what breed will learn that if it wants treats or belly rubs or whatever it will do what you are asking of it. But always remember training is on going . Also by the time a pup leaves my house walking on a lead or harness, pottying, no bite, leave it, etc are already taught. Also alot of behavior issues are due to temperament problems in the parents. This is why alot of good breeders on here stress what needs to be done before anyone breeds. Mainly the testing but you also have to have the correct match . So it's not always just because of the people that are raising the pups it's also issues with the dogs being bred that the owners did not take the time to consider before breeding their dogs.

The good thing about toys, is their cute puppy stage lasts forever, lol. I don't think I would have missed much with Pixie being 12 weeks as opposed to 8 weeks, except for the time.
But I can respect that. With larger breeds, the puppy stage is much shorter, and so you want that time in. I do think we can safely forgo that with toys, because they never really grow up. But some like yourself want as much time with their puppies as they can get, and I do understand.

I guess what I'm trying to do is get more in-depth information on this general rule of thumb. Because as I have said, OTHER THAN hypoglycemia, the reasons give don't make sense to me. So that is what I'm trying to understand.

I see your point, but I have never been one to agree with someone just because someone else, no matter how well known or respected says so. I can't disagree with the YTCA of what they say doesn't make any sense to me.
But no one place or person, or group of people is the end all and be all of anything.
It is indeed possible for someone to be a top breeder of yorkies and not be a member of the YTCA, if ONLY for the reason that they haven't been sponsored or their sponsor doesn't live close to them.
9) Members shall sponsor an applicant for membership only if the member has personally known the applicant for a minimum of two years. At least one of the sponsoring members must have visited the applicant's facility one or more times during the two years immediately preceding the application date.
That doesn't mean that said hypothetical breeder isn't ethical, isn't a good breeder, doesn't actually go by YTCA COE rules... but they're not a member.

I suppose that I would not have brought this up if there were similar codicils on other breeds. One would think that the Chihuahua Club of America would have similar guide lines, considering that chihuahuas and yorkies have similar issues. But they don't. But the Maltese Club does. Toy Fox Terrier Club doesn't. Silky Club says puppies can go at 8 weeks. The Pom Club says not before 10 weeks.
Mind you, I am trying to pick out the toys that are comparative in size to the Yorkie. While I don't believe that a toy is a toy is a toy, I do believe in comparing dogs of a similar type, be that breed type or size.
I do not know why the different toy clubs have different rules with regards to the release of puppies, but I do find it interesting that there is no consensus, especially with the Chihuahua, which shares the smallest breed title with the Yorkie.
I don't think that Chihuahua people care about their puppies any less than Yorkie people do. I do believe that Chihuahua people care just as much for their puppies. So why do THEY not ask the same thing of their COE breeders... Unless I missed something on their site.
I am not asking anyone to answer that question, I am explaining why I am asking MY question. One of the reasons, at least.

I do agree that a quality breeder can enhance a puppy through the reasons you listed. But as you also stated, this breeder of yours has had to deal with kennel bound puppies, coming, one would assume from other COE breeders, or at the very least reputable breeders who did nothing for their pups emotional health.
Not that I am impugning their reputation, but I feel that kennel raising dogs is borderline cruelty. My opinion only. And I can't say that a puppy raised for 12 weeks in a kennel situation is better than a puppy that is 12 weeks old but in a home situation since 8 weeks.

Oh, and I might have mentioned it, but Pixie didn't hit 2 lbs until she was 4 and a half months. Part of it might have been the food, since I have switched her food, she is a lot more solid and less frail to the touch. She's even gotten a song about how fat she is, because she feels so much heavier than she did.
I cannot see where the YTCA says 2 lbs, but if so, then I would not have gotten Pixie until 4 and a half months.. And I wouldn't have wanted to miss those 2 and a half months for the world. Though I would have liked her to be a BIT bigger.. 1 lb 1 ounce at 9 weeks is TINY!

Just goes to show that every dog is an individual. 12 and 8 weeker not potty trained, 8 weeker potty trained, 8 weekers nippy, 12 weeker not nippy.
Mind if I ask how small was the first one when you brought them home? I am truly curious.

:2popkorn:

:p

:sfunslap:

Here's a few reasons I remember off hand from respectable responsible breeders on here:
Socialization, temperament, hypoglycemia, death rates, onset of anxiety & other disorders, whelping ability, decreased rate of food aggression #1 reason dogs don't pass temperament testing at animal control facilities in CA and are put down oh and potty training...

:D Mine is 4 years and not potty trained.... 100% :p

Not sure how true it is, but I heard potty training with pads leads to dogs peeing on rugs, bathroom mats and etc. I heard Pad trained dogs do not know the difference ( or it is harder for them) to tell the difference from a pad and a rug or bathroom mat. Not sure what is true but thats what I heard!

I can understand and respect that. I guess having hand raised puppies, and done my research, I felt ready for anything Pixie could throw at me.
I admit, I wasn't prepared for how tiny she was, and I wasn't prepared for her not believing that Cesar's Puppy or Science Diet Dry Puppy was real food. I shouldn't have been surprised, though, when she started "stealing" my mother's cats' dry food about 3 days after I got her, when she was 9 weeks.
It was also about then....
Hmmmm.. I think I am having an epiphany. Pixie THINKS she's a cat because of the couple days at my mother's house with her cats!
She started eating dry food, stealing the cats food. She started eating wet food when Sweetie showed her it was really something GOOD (but not Cesar's I think it was Nutro puppy). When I'm on the floor and she jumps up on my back and perches on my shoulder, she is just emulating Cleo (or Chloe, I can't tell them apart).
Maybe she would have learned to use the litter box if she'd had more than 2 days with them, lol.
I'm only teasing a little. But Sweetie DID stick his nose in Pixie's canned food the second I opened it. But then the Nupro smelled like people food, and more appealing than the Cesar's puppy, so at the same time, while she could have started eating it, because Sweetie was trying to eat it, she could have wanted to eat it because it smelled so much better than what she was being offered.

So maybe at least another week with her mother would have helped with the food situation. I am willing to admit that. I am also going to go on record as saying that had her litter been offered food earlier then by 8 weeks she would have been if not fully weaned, at least capable of recognizing food on her own.

I think we believe the same thing. I am not discounting the YTCA's vast experience and knowledge. But I am also not one to accept on say so. I want facts. Anecdotal information works as well. I am sure there has been no study done on puppies sent at 8 weeks vrs 9 weeks, vrs 10, 11, 12, and so on up to 16 weeks. Just as I am sure that breeders believe that for the most part Yorkie puppies do best when 12 weeks.
Now I am asking WHY, and explaining how the reasons given that I have seen, make no sense to me based on MY experience.

I am, once again, trying hard to differentiate MY personal experience with the experience of those with Yorkies.

You mean to tell me NO ONE has lost a mother, and had only a singleton puppy to hand raise? Obviously this has happened. And I am sure that in the end that puppy had no adverse reactions to being hand reared.
So no momma and no littermates.
What if this was an only dog? It's possible.
Granted the puppy in this case likely wouldn't leave the breeders possession, but where then is the beneficial presence of the mother and littermates? This puppy isn't broken or irreparably impaired by the lack of sibs and momma.
I can even see where this puppy may have to leave the breeders, if there was a puppy pick stud fee contact of live birth.
It's situations like this, that I KNOW have happened and unfortunately will happen again that make be question the REASONS given, OTHER than the HEALTH of the puppy.
But then as I have said, if someone is a professional yorkie person, then they know how to handle a younger than 12 week old puppy, and I don't see that it's wrong to let a puppy go before 12 weeks to that someone. They have the knowledge and ability to handle it.

I believe you said what I am thinking, but haven't yet put into words. This..
"Do I believe that all puppies should be placed at 12 weeks ? No. I think some could be placed earlier and be fine and I think some benefit more by staying with the breeder an extra two or three weeks beyond the 12 week age."
And also this..
"I know I do not always have an answer."

And that's why I ask the questions I ask. I am willing to listen, even if I don't come to agree with what's being said, especially when it is outside my experience, I respect what is being said.

Thank you kindly. Sadly, I feel I have to walk a fine line between asking for information I haven't been able to find, and chance offending some people because I dared to ask a question about something I don't understand.
Gladly, as I have said, I have a thick skin, so I chose to possibly offend by asking a question, and thereby increase my own knowledge and edification at the risk of some ruffled feathers.

Making sure the teeth were in wasn't something I had thought of, so I LOVED that answer. As well as for shots. I guess I'm used to shots at 6 and 8 weeks, so it didn't occur to me that others may start the shots later, or use a longer spaced schedule.
Which actually makes sense with the little tinies (which includes ALL Yorkies).
Health should be the priority of every breeder and owner. Mental, emotional, and physical. And I guess because I have not seen with my own litters any difference between puppies that went to their new homes at 8 weeks, and ones that left at 10, or even 6 months, or 2 years... Because I would happily keep any puppy I had whose sale fell through, that didn't match anyone on my waiting list temperamentally.. I just didn't understand the socialization, bite inhibition thing that is the given reason.
Which is why I asked.

Not about the physical health, I agree with that 100% and that is reason enough for me... though some people don't seem to understand that I am agreeing that is a valid reason.
I am questioning the OTHER reasons given. And I think this is about the fourth time I have said that, lol.

I probably would have been happier with Pixie older. That first month was half me freaking out because I couldn't find the puppy because she was so tiny and I was terrified I was going to sit on her, or squish her by rolling on her, as she slept with me, and half me freaking out because she was so tiny, and I was afraid that she was going to get stepped on, or rolled on by the computer chair.
OK, it was ALL me freaking out because she was so tiny. I honestly didn't expect her to be as small as she was.
She was so tiny, I didn't believe she was the age I was told, I firmly believed that she was younger.. like 5 weeks. Even my brother who has as much breeding experience as I do, thought she was 5-6 weeks. But the vet, and my COE mentor both agreed she was 9 weeks. Just super tiny.
I'm not going to comment on the bad behavior.. I have avoided most of the threads about bad behavior. I expect a certain degree of respectability from my dogs, and I have always gotten it. Especially when I have raised them. Rehabbing a former fighting dog is a bit more difficult, but puppies, in my experience, follow where you lead. Even with the vagrities of individual personalities.

I am not denying that there can be benefits to a puppy staying with it's littermates and mother longer. I am saying I have not personally seen any, and that is why I question that reason.
Not that it isn't valid for some, just I can't see it. Not those reasons.. but YES for the health reasons given.

Yes, I can agree with the health reasons. But I can disagree with the motives you assigned, as I never made much money off my dogs between the health checks, DNA tests, and the showing, and rarely breeding.. But I have sold puppies at 8 weeks that went on to be just fine.
And many reputable COE breeders have sold puppies and will continue to sell puppies at 8 weeks. I highly doubt they're doing it for money. But you're welcomed to feel that way.

I'm sorry if that sounded snotty, or rude, I don't mean it that way, I have rewritten the above a half dozen times trying to get my point across without sounding rude, but no matter what I do, it just comes across that way, and that's not the tone I'm trying to portray.
With most of our language being nonverbal, the written word doesn't accurately present to you how I am saying, and I'm really sorry for that.

Being as it's going on 1 in the morning, and I am losing my ability to accurately express my meaning and tone, I think it's time for me to step out of this until I have gotten some sleep.

Again, thank you everyone for your responses. I am enjoying this. If I am repetitious, please believe, it isn't because I am trying to convince anyone of anything, but restating my position and why I belief what I do.

Each time I respond, I'm talking to the person I'm quoting, which is why I am saying the same things over and over again. It's not that I think that if I keep on saying it, people will listen and be swayed to my train of thought. It's just I'm reiterating my position, my experience, my opinion.

Good night all, and I shall resume reading and replying to the posts on this thread in the morning.

That's entirely untrue.
In fact it's the opposite-the potty pads (most) have a scent on them, news paper, lawn etc does not...

LOL my entire apartment is wall-to-wall carpeting and Teddy never misses his pee pad! What a good boy :)

We just moved from a place with all hard floors to wall to wall carpeting, and we've had a few accidents but were getting better.

OP...it seems like you're being difficult on purpose, you are aware of all the reasons breeders of small dogs don't release their pups until 12 weeks (reputable ones anyway). So what do you hope to accomplish here? Has there been studies officially published in dog magazines proving that a pup is less prone to diseases, and are better socialized, probably not. Why not attend dog shows and talk to breeders who can explain it better than us, since you're just going to have a "smart" comeback for everyone who responds here.

Good point!

Yes that is a very good boy! I admire you!! I don't even have carpet and Peanut has a handful of accidents!! :thumbdown

OP- In response to your comment that other toy breeds code of ethics don't require that their member breeders keep their puppies until 12 weeks, that isn't correct. I looked up the COE for both the American Maltese Association and the Shih Tzu Club of America. They both state that members not release puppies until they are at least 12 weeks of age.

Princess is my first/only yorkie & I got her at 9.5 weeks. I didn't learn otherwise until later.

She had problems going potty-the 'breeder' said she was already using a pad-she never used a pad for me for about a year, though she did go outside. Apparently the 'breeder' was worried about hypoglycemia as she sent a tube of Forti-Cal home & said to give it twice a day, no matter what. I had a lot of problems with Princess nipping/mouthing us. She still does the suckling motion when we're playing & she's tired-I've never seen other dogs do that...is that because she misses the comfort as she wasn't old enough to leave it? All of these issues & she was the biggest pup at 3# I believe. If this could've been avoided by the breeder keeping her longer & I'd known better I would've insisted.

IMO I don't think it's right to put my emotional needs.."oooh, a puppy, a puppy!" before her needs. It could've made many months easier than they were. Please don't get the wrong idea that I don't love her to death, but realizing that love another three weeks later wouldn't have made me love her any less.

How clean were the carpets when you got there?
You should consider there is a scent on them your dog is marking over...
steam clean and then use an anti urine cleaner not the other way around and notice the difference or lack of potty "accidents"

I always thought Thor knew potty pads by smell, and have gone out of my way to always buy the same brand, but since spending time in NY, I've discovered that Thor has a pretty flimsy grasp on potty pad identifiers. I'm pretty sure he goes by (a) location, and (b) small and rectangular.

Thor has never pottied on my bath mat in SF. The first week I was in NY, I found a small yellow stain on the bath mat. I thought, okay, it is white like a potty pad, so maybe it's a little confusing. I purchased a blue mat. Several days later, that one also got marked. I thought fine, it is still kind one uniform color and size. I got a mat with a highly defined pattern and also had a lot of texture to it, so that it did not in any way look or feel like a potty pad. Needless to say, I found poop on it within hours. Soon after that, I found poop on a larger area rug, which Thor hasn't done in years.

Each of these mats was used in a different apartment, so it definitely was not a trace scent, or confusion because he'd gone there before. I think he was just in a new place and decided he was going to experiment with some different surfaces.

I have to say, I'm the polar opposite on this one. The newborn stage was my absolute least favorite of being a Mom.

Colic, spitting up, sleepless nights . . . you can have it!

About 4 months - my son started smiling, grinning, actually interacting with me and that was when the real fun began.

But, back on topic, a lot of health issues do not rear their ugly head until after 8 weeks. So the breeder can be saving someone lots of heartache by holding on to the puppy until they are ready to leave their Mom

Plus, all the threads I've seen on here - newbie owners with 1 and 2 lb babies less than 12 weeks old . . . heartbreak is often just around the corner. The dog is too small and young; the owner has no idea about how to handle such a young and fragile being . . .

Painting with a broad brush, 12 weeks just seems reasonable to me.

Isn't that why a breeder interviews prospective owners...to ensure that the pup is going to a good home where it will receive competent care? If a person can't handle caring for a young puppy, how do they handle a sick or injured dog should that arise in the future? I'd suggest that if the breeder lacks confidence in the prospective owner's ability to adequately care for a young puppy, they should either educate & provide support to the future owner, or withold the pup until they find a better qualified prospective owner.