Spay and Neuter: When and If ever?

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

That's exactly what I mean. MILLIONS of dogs are killed each year because of their irresponsible owners.



I don't see any snarky comments going on here. If you think offering the opinion that people are irresponsible and millions are animals are killed every year is snarky I don't know what to even say to that.

Gemy, don't take this wrong but as much as you advocate for this topic we all know how you had a Heartworm positive dog. The story is very sad but in the end it was owner failure by not properly giving the preventative.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/our...s-prayers.html

Which brings me to the point of why EVERY pet owner should spay and neuter. When it becomes a matter of life and death it is then too late. Like I said in my first post, owners are not always responsible and the story of Zoey (I consider you very responsible) is just case in point.

Sorry, Jodi, this is such a low blow, and it's unacceptable to me, no matter how passionate you are. Reading this really hurt me, and it would have been the case, even if it wasn't written about such a dear friend. I guess getting your point across is more important than caring about the feelings of a highly respected, contributing member of our community. We are all infallible; I don't think anyone, including Gail, would disagree with this. She took full responsibility for Zoey's illness, and she has been vocal about it. With everything I know about Gail, I would trust my adored little girl with her anytime. Her love for her pups is truly admirable, and she epitomizes what it means to be a devoted pet owner. I am so grateful for everything she does to educate our board and to contribute to the "heart" to YT.

I believe I am a very responsible pet owner, yet I have made mistakes. We all have. I do everything I can to learn how to do the very best I can for my little one. I have spayed all of my Yorkies through the years, but I appreciate this research and all of the information shared. I hope posts like yours don't deter others from posting. I know you are passionate about dogs. So am I, but I believe it is beyond reproach to bring up something so hurtful. I love dogs, and I will strongly advocate for them, yet I also live by a code of ethics that respects the feelings of both people and animals. Gemy earned my respect long ago, and that respect deepened when she shared Zoey's story and advocated for heart worm prevention.

[dottiesyrky]

Lisaly.
I agree with all of your post. To refer to Zoey in this context is mean and unfair to a member who is so well respected here and has much to offer. Remember knowledge is power and we should all strive to educate ourselves before we act.
Let YTers read all sides of an issue and decide for themselves what to do.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by lisaly

Sorry, Jodi, this is such a low blow, and it's unacceptable to me, no matter how passionate you are. Reading this really hurt me, and it would have been the case, even if it wasn't written about such a dear friend. I guess getting your point across is more important than caring about the feelings of a highly respected, contributing member of our community. We are all infallible; I don't think anyone, including Gail, would disagree with this. She took full responsibility for Zoey's illness, and she has been vocal about it. With everything I know about Gail, I would trust my adored little girl with her anytime. Her love for her pups is truly admirable, and she epitomizes what it means to be a devoted pet owner. I am so grateful for everything she does to educate our board and to contribute to the "heart" to YT.

I believe I am a very responsible pet owner, yet I have made mistakes. We all have. I do everything I can to learn how to do the very best I can for my little one. I have spayed all of my Yorkies through the years, but I appreciate this research and all of the information shared. I hope posts like yours don't deter others from posting. I know you are passionate about dogs. So am I, but I believe it is beyond reproach to bring up something so hurtful. I love dogs, and I will strongly advocate for them, yet I also live by a code of ethics that respects the feelings of both people and animals. Gemy earned my respect long ago, and that respect deepened when she shared Zoey's story and advocated for heart worm prevention.

I don't think being a donating member or even respected by lots of people make it where nothing bad should never be said about a person, I have seen that happen but then I have also seen well respected donating members get beat up and no one said anything. I don't really think that has anything to do with anything. I personally have a problem with anti spay and neuter people especially when the only tests and study's have been on large breed dogs and there is a huge difference. I also think it's weird for someone to love a breed but then tell people it's better to not get them fixed when it's worse for the breed because of all the people who won't get there dogs fixed and are mating with any and everything. There is also the fact I really don't think it is healthy how can it be when there are unhealthy dogs mating with other unhealthy dogs bringing other unhealthy dogs into this world that will either suffer there whole lives, suffer until the shelter puts them to sleep or just suffer until they die. That is the majority of dogs reproducing. Giving people a reason to not get there dogs fixed is damaging in so many ways and to me and a whole lot of other people it's blasphemy in a sense. More so to those whose lives are all about rescuing the unwanted, unloved and uncared about dogs.

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I don't think being a donating member or even respected by lots of people make it where nothing bad should never be said about a person, I have seen that happen but then I have also seen well respected donating members get beat up and no one said anything. I don't really think that has anything to do with anything. I personally have a problem with anti spay and neuter people especially when the only tests and study's have been on large breed dogs and there is a huge difference. I also think it's weird for someone to love a breed but then tell people it's better to not get them fixed when it's worse for the breed because of all the people who won't get there dogs fixed and are mating with any and everything. There is also the fact I really don't think it is healthy how can it be when there are unhealthy dogs mating with other unhealthy dogs bringing other unhealthy dogs into this world that will either suffer there whole lives, suffer until the shelter puts them to sleep or just suffer until they die. That is the majority of dogs reproducing. Giving people a reason to not get there dogs fixed is damaging in so many ways and to me and a whole lot of other people it's blasphemy in a sense. More so to those whose lives are all about rescuing the unwanted, unloved and uncared about dogs.

I respectfully disagree, Taylor. I believe that when respect has been earned, you give respect back. Actually, I believe everyone deserves respect.

I understand the plight of shelter dogs and the major problem that we have in the United States. I believe in education and being informed enough to make an educated decision. In no way do I see this as an anti-spay agenda. I will continue to be a life-long learner and do everything in my power to keep my little girl healthy. I don't disagree that shelters have to spay-neuter dogs at an appropriate age, but I also think that you can be a highly responsible pet owner who does not spay or neuter his/her pet.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by lisaly

I respectfully disagree, Taylor. I believe that when respect has been earned, you give respect back. Actually, I believe everyone deserves respect.

I understand the plight of shelter dogs and the major problem that we have in the United States. I believe in education and being informed enough to make an educated decision. In no way do I see this as an anti-spay agenda. I will continue to be a life-long learner and do everything in my power to keep my little girl healthy. I don't disagree that shelters have to spay-neuter dogs at an appropriate age, but I also think that you can be a highly responsible pet owner who does not spay or neuter his/her pet.

I have seen disrespect given to donating members who I consider very respectful. The majority of people are not highly responsible though some that even think they are, are not. Heck we all mess up maybe none of us are highly responsible. I just don't think the study's have been done on small dogs or enough of them or even all the right ones to say getting your dog fixed isn't the most healthy. I think it is the most healthy I think there are some considerations when doing it though to make it the healthiest but I still think it's the best and right thing to do.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by lisaly

Sorry, Jodi, this is such a low blow, and it's unacceptable to me, no matter how passionate you are. Reading this really hurt me, and it would have been the case, even if it wasn't written about such a dear friend. I guess getting your point across is more important than caring about the feelings of a highly respected, contributing member of our community. We are all infallible; I don't think anyone, including Gail, would disagree with this. She took full responsibility for Zoey's illness, and she has been vocal about it. With everything I know about Gail, I would trust my adored little girl with her anytime. Her love for her pups is truly admirable, and she epitomizes what it means to be a devoted pet owner. I am so grateful for everything she does to educate our board and to contribute to the "heart" to YT.

I believe I am a very responsible pet owner, yet I have made mistakes. We all have. I do everything I can to learn how to do the very best I can for my little one. I have spayed all of my Yorkies through the years, but I appreciate this research and all of the information shared. I hope posts like yours don't deter others from posting. I know you are passionate about dogs. So am I, but I believe it is beyond reproach to bring up something so hurtful. I love dogs, and I will strongly advocate for them, yet I also live by a code of ethics that respects the feelings of both people and animals. Gemy earned my respect long ago, and that respect deepened when she shared Zoey's story and advocated for heart worm prevention.

My point is obviously being taken out of context.

Originally Posted by dottiesyrky

Lisaly.
I agree with all of your post. To refer to Zoey in this context is mean and unfair to a member who is so well respected here and has much to offer. Remember knowledge is power and we should all strive to educate ourselves before we act.
Let YTers read all sides of an issue and decide for themselves what to do.

Really? What I said wasn't disrespectful at all. What I was trying to convey is that even responsible people make mistakes. Gemy has always been very open about Zoey. So I really don't get why this is so offensive at all.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

That's exactly what I mean. MILLIONS of dogs are killed each year because of their irresponsible owners.



I don't see any snarky comments going on here. If you think offering the opinion that people are irresponsible and millions are animals are killed every year is snarky I don't know what to even say to that.

Gemy, don't take this wrong but as much as you advocate for this topic we all know how you had a Heartworm positive dog. The story is very sad but in the end it was owner failure by not properly giving the preventative.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/our...s-prayers.html

Which brings me to the point of why EVERY pet owner should spay and neuter. When it becomes a matter of life and death it is then too late. Like I said in my first post, owners are not always responsible and the story of Zoey (I consider you very responsible) is just case in point.

And how do I take this the "right" way. Thank you for reminding of Zoeys' death not from Heartworm but from Cancer 6 months later! And very close to her 2 year anniversary as well! And it was very clear by me in my OWN thread that it was my fault. It wasn't in the end it was owners' failure, I admitted that right up front on my thread!

The story of Zoey has no bearing on Spay/Neuter research at all, and what that research is telling us.

This is a thread I keep active when new research on this topic comes to my attention, and I will continue to post this research, for those readers who are interested enough to read it. I am quite sure we have lots of members who not only own Yorkies but medium to large size breeds as well. Ya think that they might be interested in this research?????

And when finally I come across toy breed studies I will post those as well.

My position on Spay and Neuter for those that care to read all my postings is appropriate timing, and that there are no over-weening health benefits for males. I never say DONT neuter or SPAY, I in fact for females basically say spay, and for males I say there is no over-weening health benefit for males...........

So how does this make me ANTI SPAY/NEUTER?

In closing, I thank you Jodi, for jabbing my heart to remember my two beloved pets who I lost to cancer. My Karma 11 months ago today a neutered male cat, and my Zoey 2 yrs and 2 days ago an intact female. And btw not from mammary cancer!

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I just don't think the study's have been done on small dogs or enough of them or even all the right ones to say getting your dog fixed isn't the most healthy. I think it is the most healthy I think there are some considerations when doing it though to make it the healthiest but I still think it's the best and right thing to do.

I think that Gemy has made the point in some of her posts that not enough studies have been done on the health effects of spaying small dogs, and she even stated that in her opinion, unless the dog is quality, genetically tested breeding stock, spaying is the best thing to do in the case of Yorkies. She is simply trying to put factual information about the effects of spaying out there for people to consider, and that it's not a black and white issue for every breed. People can disagree with that, and that's okay, but... implying that Gemy is not qualified to speak on this topic because she had a dog who tested positive for heartworms is a low blow, especially if you read the thread that was cited, in which it's clear that it was her husband's fault, and she felt absolutely horrible about it. And it is also completely irrelevant to her qualifications to speak on the subject.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by gemy

And how do I take this the "right" way. Thank you for reminding of Zoeys' death not from Heartworm but from Cancer 6 months later! And very close to her 2 year anniversary as well! And it was very clear by me in my OWN thread that it was my fault. It wasn't in the end it was owners' failure, I admitted that right up front on my thread!

The story of Zoey has no bearing on Spay/Neuter research at all, and what that research is telling us.

This is a thread I keep active when new research on this topic comes to my attention, and I will continue to post this research, for those readers who are interested enough to read it. I am quite sure we have lots of members who not only own Yorkies but medium to large size breeds as well. Ya think that they might be interested in this research?????

And when finally I come across toy breed studies I will post those as well.

My position on Spay and Neuter for those that care to read all my postings is appropriate timing, and that there are no over-weening health benefits for males. I never say DONT neuter or SPAY, I in fact for females basically say spay, and for males I say there is no over-weening health benefit for males...........

So how does this make me ANTI SPAY/NEUTER?

In closing, I thank you Jodi, for jabbing my heart to remember my two beloved pets who I lost to cancer. My Karma 11 months ago today a neutered male cat, and my Zoey 2 yrs and 2 days ago an intact female. And btw not from mammary cancer!

This is all a little dramatic don't you think?

My point was that responsible owners make mistakes and we should not assume that everyone has the same responsibility level as you do or I do. Mistakes happen and to suggest that not spaying and neutering is a healthy choice when millions of dog are being killed is just beyond my comprehension.

Here's a dog gas chamber. Tell me this is a better option that mammary tumors or a torn ligament. It goes on DAILY in the country! It makes me sick. DOGS STILL Being GASSED To Death in U.S. ANIMAL SHELTERS - YouTube

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by pstinard

I think that Gemy has made the point in some of her posts that not enough studies have been done on the health effects of spaying small dogs, and she even stated that in her opinion, unless the dog is quality, genetically tested breeding stock, spaying is the best thing to do in the case of Yorkies. She is simply trying to put factual information about the effects of spaying out there for people to consider, and that it's not a black and white issue for every breed. People can disagree with that, and that's okay, but... implying that Gemy is not qualified to speak on this topic because she had a dog who tested positive for heartworms is a low blow, especially if you read the thread that was cited, in which it's clear that it was her husband's fault, and she felt absolutely horrible about it. And it is also completely irrelevant to her qualifications to speak on the subject.

There are very few people that should have unaltered animals......period. My issue is that there are far too many people looking for an excuse not to alter their animals. There isn't a person that I've personally met that should have an unaltered dog or cat. I'm not talking about on line forum people....you can't cannot in good conscious put this stuff which is vaguely researched statistics to fuel peoples search for justification. They are not going to look at the article but instead pick and chose pieces of the information to suite their adgenda.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by pstinard

I think that Gemy has made the point in some of her posts that not enough studies have been done on the health effects of spaying small dogs, and she even stated that in her opinion, unless the dog is quality, genetically tested breeding stock, spaying is the best thing to do in the case of Yorkies. She is simply trying to put factual information about the effects of spaying out there for people to consider, and that it's not a black and white issue for every breed. People can disagree with that, and that's okay, but... implying that Gemy is not qualified to speak on this topic because she had a dog who tested positive for heartworms is a low blow, especially if you read the thread that was cited, in which it's clear that it was her husband's fault, and she felt absolutely horrible about it. And it is also completely irrelevant to her qualifications to speak on the subject.

I was not the one who said anything about Zoey. But I think of a couple as a team if one forgets the other should be checking or making sure it's done like if Sammy doesn't get his heartworm prevention or ct meds I lecture both my parents and blame them both equally. But again I did not bring the heartworm thing up so telling me it's a low blow is not something that really needs to be done.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

This is all a little dramatic don't you think?

My point was that responsible owners make mistakes and we should not assume that everyone has the same responsibility level as you do or I do. Mistakes happen and to suggest that not spaying and neutering is a healthy choice when millions of dog are being killed is just beyond my comprehension.

Here's a dog gas chamber. Tell me this is a better option that mammary tumors or a torn ligament. It goes on DAILY in the country! It makes me sick. DOGS STILL Being GASSED To Death in U.S. ANIMAL SHELTERS - YouTube

Jodi the point is that for more than a few breeds the standard Spay and Neuter is NOT a long term health choice for more than a few breeds! The preponderance of evidence is building. We have Rottweilers, GR, Viszlas, GSD, and more.

WE do how-ever lack toy dog studies/research on this very important issue.

My responsibility is for the dog(s) under my care, and the puppies I rear, and to educate my future pet owners. I do this by keeping current with research as well as I am able to.

Quite frankly I will always make the best health choice for my dogs, and try to insure my puppy owners do too!

You might after reading all the research come to a different conclusion than myself, and that is fine. But read the research.

I agree that the number of dogs being euthanized is appalling, how-ever I don't see that that should mandate an automatic spay/neuter if it is not in the best overall health interests of the dog breed in question.

There are other options that can be utilized. Vascetomy, tubal ligation, birth control pills(perhaps in the future), etc, that would serve to keep the sex hormones intact so that unwanted pregnancies don't occur.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

There are very few people that should have unaltered animals......period. My issue is that there are far too many people looking for an excuse not to alter their animals. There isn't a person that I've personally met that should have an unaltered dog or cat. I'm not talking about on line forum people....you can't cannot in good conscious put this stuff which is vaguely researched statistics to fuel peoples search for justification. They are not going to look at the article but instead pick and chose pieces of the information to suite their agenda.

I agree with you here, and I do see where you are coming from. I was simply taken aback by your bringing up Zoey's story. I thought it irrelevant at best, and hurtful at worst. I accept your explanation that you didn't intend to be hurtful, but you can see that Gemy took it that way...

[107barney]

I don't think it's a low blow to bring up zoey. When my dog Barney tore his ligament, gemy suggested it was due to early neutering. I found myself laughing out loud at that proposterous suggestion....that an early neutered 11.5 year old who jumped off a bed and onto a hardwood floor could have had that happen because he was early neutered. I could care less what anyone thinks though. I spent 26 weeks with my beloved dog fixing his ligament, having the repair break, and taking him to therapy twice a week at the tune of several months' pay. So this nonsense about hurt feelings and respected members is a crock. I have contributed thousands of posts with real merit and experience and have often been the recipient of attacks and disdain...as has jodi. You have a problem, talk to the moderator instead of lynching members like Jodi as if she was a shelter dog approaching the gas chamber.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I was not the one who said anything about Zoey. But I think of a couple as a team if one forgets the other should be checking or making sure it's done like if Sammy doesn't get his heartworm prevention or ct meds I lecture both my parents and blame them both equally. But again I did not bring the heartworm thing up so telling me it's a low blow is not something that really needs to be done.

I know it wasn't you, and I didn't say it was you. Maybe I should have been more clear on that. However, you were defending the person who DID say that. And again, it is NOT relevant to the discussion of spaying AT ALL.