Yay!! BREAKTHROUGH!! now..need advice from breeders!

[KendraE]

Im really excited!!! Plz read my last thread if you dont recognize my name!!!

This evening I spoke to the "wanna be breeder" (BYB) and talked with her even more about things. She really wants to sell her pups as pet only....I told her there is some way to sell them with a stimpulation in a contract to have them spayed/neutered. She was totally for it. I also had Mac with me and he is not alot smaller at 6 weeks than her newest female who is 13 weeks. I told her that if that pup didnt grow ALOT in the next year, she should never breed her because she is too small...and she agreed!!

This is a breakthough! It really is!! Im am sooo glad that I have learned enough to share with her to maybe make a small difference in BYBing.

I need to know what to tell her contract wise. What should she write that is binding. How will she ever know if the buyers went ahead and bred the pups they buy....TEACH ME!! I really want to help her become a better breeder/person!!!

[KendraE]

Ok, well now I am discouraged. I really would like some advice but I guess I won't be getting it. I at least know I tried to help. That's all I can do....try.

[katarina]

Don't give up! I wish I could help but I have no what to say, someone will though Good luck Kendra and good job!

[TexasKat08]

Be patient!!

Maybe try posting in the breeders section. You know, where the breeders hang out.

Are they AKC? If so, they can be sold on a limited registration so if they are bred the litter can't be registered, which devalues the puppies in theory. Or, I think you can hold the registration papers until proof of spay/neuter is submitted. Just a start!

[KendraE]

Originally Posted by TexasKat08

Be patient!!

Maybe try posting in the breeders section. You know, where the breeders hang out.

Are they AKC? If so, they can be sold on a limited registration so if they are bred the litter can't be registered, which devalues the puppies in theory. Or, I think you can hold the registration papers until proof of spay/neuter is submitted. Just a start!

Thanks Kathy! I'm pretty sure they are akc. And it seems to me more breeders hang here than in the breeder section. Great idea on holding the papers until spay/neuter is confirmed. That's just it, I have no idea what to tell her. I obviously am not going to keep her from breeding, but I just feel like I need to help in some way. I know this isn't really my business, but I can't stand by and watch and do nothing either!

[TexasKat08]

Originally Posted by KendraE

Thanks Kathy! I'm pretty sure they are akc. And it seems to me more breeders hang here than in the breeder section. Great idea on holding the papers until spay/neuter is confirmed. That's just it, I have no idea what to tell her. I obviously am not going to keep her from breeding, but I just feel like I need to help in some way. I know this isn't really my business, but I can't stand by and watch and do nothing either!

I disagree. Mac makes it your business. I really admire you for sticking your neck out. And, truthfully, even though this lady is a BYB you have to giver her credit for being willing to listen and change to improve her breeding practices. I can't remember - is she on YT? She is the "target market" when it comes to all the threads about what it means to be a good and reputable breeder.

[KendraE]

Originally Posted by TexasKat08

I disagree. Mac makes it your business. I really admire you for sticking your neck out. And, truthfully, even though this lady is a BYB you have to giver her credit for being willing to listen and change to improve her breeding practices. I can't remember - is she on YT? She is the "target market" when it comes to all the threads about what it means to be a good and reputable breeder.

No, she isn't on YT. I believe just from what I've told her she has grown. She doesn't have a computer right now or I would just encourage her to come here and learn. I guess I have made myself the middle-man which is fine if I can help some babies. I just need to learn all I can in order TO help.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by KendraE

Im really excited!!! Plz read my last thread if you dont recognize my name!!!

This evening I spoke to the "wanna be breeder" (BYB) and talked with her even more about things. She really wants to sell her pups as pet only....I told her there is some way to sell them with a stimpulation in a contract to have them spayed/neutered. She was totally for it. I also had Mac with me and he is not alot smaller at 6 weeks than her newest female who is 13 weeks. I told her that if that pup didnt grow ALOT in the next year, she should never breed her because she is too small...and she agreed!!

This is a breakthough! It really is!! Im am sooo glad that I have learned enough to share with her to maybe make a small difference in BYBing.

I need to know what to tell her contract wise. What should she write that is binding. How will she ever know if the buyers went ahead and bred the pups they buy....TEACH ME!! I really want to help her become a better breeder/person!!!

Originally Posted by KendraE

Ok, well now I am discouraged. I really would like some advice but I guess I won't be getting it. I at least know I tried to help. That's all I can do....try.

Originally Posted by KendraE

Thanks Kathy! I'm pretty sure they are akc. And it seems to me more breeders hang here than in the breeder section. Great idea on holding the papers until spay/neuter is confirmed. That's just it, I have no idea what to tell her. I obviously am not going to keep her from breeding, but I just feel like I need to help in some way. I know this isn't really my business, but I can't stand by and watch and do nothing either!

Please take this as constructive advice -- SLOW DOWN a bit ! Just as you got a little snippy & sarcastic here just because you were not answered in less than 2 hours, I think you might be jumping the gun just a little on giving advice to a breeder. She does sound like she is in need of some mentoring -- but a mentor is experienced and knowledgable. Maybe you could provide her with some websites, or even some copied material from this forum. (Check out some of the stickies at the beginning of each forum section.) But when you shoot from the hip without being truly knowledgable yourself, you could do more harm than good. If she finds your advice to be in error, she might just decide she really does know what she is doing and close her mind to advice. You don't want that.

For instance -- you tell her that just because her 13 week old puppy is not any bigger than your Mac, who you said on April 1st was 1 pound 8 ounces --(at least I THINK that is what you meant and not really the "1.8 oz" you wrote). I am guessing Mac is now almost 7 weeks old and has probably gained significantly since the 1st? It is NOT AT ALL unusual for a very normal sized 13 week old puppy to be around 2 pounds. That is a good healthy size. The difference in a few ounces is difficult to gauge as they all have different body types. A puppy that size could VERY WELL be large enough to breed as an adult. There are lots of varibles and the growth charts are only guesstimates. So, trying to tell her that her dog will not be big enough to breed at this point is not a good idea. Too early to tell. Much too early to tell if the puppy is even close enough to standard and correct in structure, health, etc. to be a breeding candidate.

You are asking us how to word a contract, but not even sure if the puppies are AKC. If so, the breeder has to know that she either blackens the place where the number is for limited registration, or she leaves it open for full registration. If she has transfered ownership with an AKC application for registration before, then she has to know that she can sell them with limited registration -- which means the person can register the pup but they CAN NEVER register puppies born to this dog unless the breeder initiates a change to the registration. If this breeder does not know this, then they have not been selling AKC puppies. It is right on the front of the registration application. If this is news to her, then she is not selling the pups with registration applications. If that is the case, then there is nothing she can do to prevent others from breeding and selling more puppies without papers, UNLESS she is willing to keep the puppies until they are old enough so she can have them spayed and neutered before selling.

I admire your wanting to help train this breeder but I would tread softly here. Asking questions is good, learning yourself is great. But I would pass on the information in a reference format. Give her copies of information from experienced breeders, a book, or a website if you want to train her. Take time to learn yourself and be able to speak from a position of researched knowledge. Take your time -- there will always be others to pass on knowlege to WHEN you learn enough yourself. I know this is "an instant age" but being able to provide MEANINGFUL advice takes time and a substantial amount of dedication to learning. Again, passing on what you read by making a copy is GREAT! But I would wait on making the info come straight from you at this point. Even if it is something you feel sure of, have a reference. I have studied for several years, read everything I can find, asked hundreds of questions and bred myself. I still, would not tell the breeder I bought from something without a reference unless I was just relaying my own experience. Why? Just giving her some respect for being in this longer than I have. And.... there are so few absolutes....her way may be as good as what I find in another reference.

Of course if you see something immediately putting a puppy into jeopardy -- speak up! But as far as potential breeding sizes of 13 week old puppies, contract verbage, and the like -- I would WAIT until you are more experienced.

One more note: I would not be taking Mac out and about (even to this breeder) until he's older and has received at least some vaccinations. He is already an "at risk" baby and you do not want to subject him to germs, diseases, parasites, etc... Plenty of time for him to socialize later.

You sure sound like the type of puppy owner, everyone wants to see -- seeking knowledge and TRULY CARING for the breed as a whole as well as your own puppies. Just take a deep breath, relax and take this one step at a time.

[MyTrixie143]

Well if they are AKC you can have the pups marked as limited but that only means that can't get any papers if they bred the pup and many people don't care about papers or find ways around it.

In my contract I require them to be spayed/neutered by a certain age. If they don't, they forfeit the health guarantee, may be fined and I have the right to take the pup back. If there is a reason they can't spay by the time limit they must contact to me so we can work it out. I stay in close contact with all the new owners and haven't had any problems yet.

If she truly cares about the pups she should also put a clause in her contact that the pups are not allowed to be abused, abandoned, taken to a shelter or given away. If the person can no longer keep the dog it must be returned to the breeder. This way they won't end up in a shelter.

[KendraE]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Please take this as constructive advice -- SLOW DOWN a bit ! Just as you got a little snippy & sarcastic here just because you were not answered in less than 2 hours, I think you might be jumping the gun just a little on giving advice to a breeder. She does sound like she is in need of some mentoring -- but a mentor is experienced and knowledgable. Maybe you could provide her with some websites, or even some copied material from this forum. (Check out some of the stickies at the beginning of each forum section.) But when you shoot from the hip without being truly knowledgable yourself, you could do more harm than good. If she finds your advice to be in error, she might just decide she really does know what she is doing and close her mind to advice. You don't want that.

For instance -- you tell her that just because her 13 week old puppy is not any bigger than your Mac, who you said on April 1st was 1 pound 8 ounces --(at least I THINK that is what you meant and not really the "1.8 oz" you wrote). I am guessing Mac is now almost 7 weeks old and has probably gained significantly since the 1st? It is NOT AT ALL unusual for a very normal sized 13 week old puppy to be around 2 pounds. That is a good healthy size. The difference in a few ounces is difficult to gauge as they all have different body types. A puppy that size could VERY WELL be large enough to breed as an adult. There are lots of varibles and the growth charts are only guesstimates. So, trying to tell her that her dog will not be big enough to breed at this point is not a good idea. Too early to tell. Much too early to tell if the puppy is even close enough to standard and correct in structure, health, etc. to be a breeding candidate.

You are asking us how to word a contract, but not even sure if the puppies are AKC. If so, the breeder has to know that she either blackens the place where the number is for limited registration, or she leaves it open for full registration. If she has transfered ownership with an AKC application for registration before, then she has to know that she can sell them with limited registration -- which means the person can register the pup but they CAN NEVER register puppies born to this dog unless the breeder initiates a change to the registration. If this breeder does not know this, then they have not been selling AKC puppies. It is right on the front of the registration application. If this is news to her, then she is not selling the pups with registration applications. If that is the case, then there is nothing she can do to prevent others from breeding and selling more puppies without papers, UNLESS she is willing to keep the puppies until they are old enough so she can have them spayed and neutered before selling.

I admire your wanting to help train this breeder but I would tread softly here. Asking questions is good, learning yourself is great. But I would pass on the information in a reference format. Give her copies of information from experienced breeders, a book, or a website if you want to train her. Take time to learn yourself and be able to speak from a position of researched knowledge. Take your time -- there will always be others to pass on knowlege to WHEN you learn enough yourself. I know this is "an instant age" but being able to provide MEANINGFUL advice takes time and a substantial amount of dedication to learning. Again, passing on what you read by making a copy is GREAT! But I would wait on making the info come straight from you at this point. Even if it is something you feel sure of, have a reference. I have studied for several years, read everything I can find, asked hundreds of questions and bred myself. I still, would not tell the breeder I bought from something without a reference unless I was just relaying my own experience. Why? Just giving her some respect for being in this longer than I have. And.... there are so few absolutes....her way may be as good as what I find in another reference.

Of course if you see something immediately putting a puppy into jeopardy -- speak up! But as far as potential breeding sizes of 13 week old puppies, contract verbage, and the like -- I would WAIT until you are more experienced.

One more note: I would not be taking Mac out and about (even to this breeder) until he's older and has received at least some vaccinations. He is already an "at risk" baby and you do not want to subject him to germs, diseases, parasites, etc... Plenty of time for him to socialize later.

You sure sound like the type of puppy owner, everyone wants to see -- seeking knowledge and TRULY CARING for the breed as a whole as well as your own puppies. Just take a deep breath, relax and take this one step at a time.

I do apologize as I was not trying to be "snippy". I do believe there is a rush for knowledge at this point. I only made mention of the 13 week female because she obtained her for the sole purpose of hoping she would stay small to breed tiny babies. I DID tell her at this point there wasnt anyway to know for sure how big she would mature to. My Bevo didnt hit a growth spurt until he was a year old. I just warned her that in the event of her staying small, that she should not breed her. I know that is in the future, but I am more concerned of what is going on NOW....

She currently has two 5 week old males. She also has a litter due on May 2nd. Hence, my rush to soak up all I can. She told me she usually lets the pups go at 6 weeks of age. I told her that 12 weeks was recommended. I informed her of all I have read here about behavioral issues, the importance of the staying with the mother and littermates. The pups will be 6 weeks on Monday and they already have buyers so yes, I am in a hurry to pass along info. Printing off literature is a great idea. I will definately get some printed for her today.

They are AKC. I do not know why she is acting ignorant on the limited registration. I just suggested having the buyer sign a spay/neuter contract. She said that sounded great because "she couldn't stand it when people bought pups with the sole purpose of breeding them later." (I almost choked when she said this...isnt this what she is doing?) She asked me how she should write the contact....and I DONT KNOW! This is so very frustrating.

On Mac....he doesnt go out. I know the importance of keeping him home. I did have him with me this once because she asked to see him. (her female is his mother) He never left my arms and I didnt allow her to touch him. But thank you for pointing that out!! He is doing very well by the way. His weight is (let me do this right this time) 1 Pound 10 oz right now. Hes not gaining as fast because he is running all over the house! I love to sit and listen to his little bell jingling away as he plays.