Dying puppy who"s fault is it?

[manolos mom]

Originally Posted by kjc

She stated that she also bred for Standard on her website at the time she gave me a female she was retiring. I did see her statement, but her website had been redone, so I can't say if it was on the newer site. The female she gave me is 6.5 pounds.



From a medical point of view, a teacup is the smallest puppy born in a normal (bred for Standard) litter of puppies, sometimes called a runt. These pups end up having more often the issues of congenital deformities, have a tendancy to be sickly, and prognosis on their survival is not good. These dogs should never be bred, or sold when they are born into a normal litter.

As I understand what Natalie was doing, was taking the smaller of the healthiest pups in a litter (not the runts) and over the years, breeding them to produce smaller than Standard Yorkies, and as they were not the runts of the litters, able to maintain healthy stock, and gradually develop a true, healthy Tiny sized line of Yorkies. She told me she never bred females under 3 pounds, and always bred them to smaller males to produce smaller puppies, keeping the females out of danger of having too large a pup to deliver.

Personally, if one is going to breed for tinies, her method would be the way to do that.

What I don't understand, are breeders that use larger than Standard females, to produce larger litters, and breed them to Standard but small males, which will produce dogs that are within the Standard for the first 1-3 years of their lives, but then grow beyond the Standard once they fully mature.

And I don't understand how member(s) who have openly sought out a Tiny for purchase for whatever reason, can come on here and criticize what Natalie was doing. Sorry, I really don't 'get' it.

And I'll say it now, not every dog from any breeder is going to be healthy. No matter how careful a breeder is, eventually something will show up. All that means is that Bitch 'A' cannot be bred with Sire 'B'. It does not mean the breeder is bad. A bad Breeder is one who will continue to breed Bitch 'A' with Sire 'B', knowing that this combination has produced problem pups in the past.

JMHO. What do I know

So, even though you know she breeds tinys, you still bought a dog from her?

[sugarmamma]

Originally Posted by manolos mom

So, even though you know she breeds tinys, you still bought a dog from her?

She did because she agrees with her "method"

[manolos mom]

Originally Posted by sugarmamma

She did because she agrees with her "method"

I guess so

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by kjc

She stated that she also bred for Standard on her website at the time she gave me a female she was retiring. I did see her statement, but her website had been redone, so I can't say if it was on the newer site. The female she gave me is 6.5 pounds.



From a medical point of view, a teacup is the smallest puppy born in a normal (bred for Standard) litter of puppies, sometimes called a runt. These pups end up having more often the issues of congenital deformities, have a tendancy to be sickly, and prognosis on their survival is not good. These dogs should never be bred, or sold when they are born into a normal litter.

As I understand what Natalie was doing, was taking the smaller of the healthiest pups in a litter (not the runts) and over the years, breeding them to produce smaller than Standard Yorkies, and as they were not the runts of the litters, able to maintain healthy stock, and gradually develop a true, healthy Tiny sized line of Yorkies. She told me she never bred females under 3 pounds, and always bred them to smaller males to produce smaller puppies, keeping the females out of danger of having too large a pup to deliver.

Personally, if one is going to breed for tinies, her method would be the way to do that.

What I don't understand, are breeders that use larger than Standard females, to produce larger litters, and breed them to Standard but small males, which will produce dogs that are within the Standard for the first 1-3 years of their lives, but then grow beyond the Standard once they fully mature.

And I don't understand how member(s) who have openly sought out a Tiny for purchase for whatever reason, can come on here and criticize what Natalie was doing. Sorry, I really don't 'get' it.

And I'll say it now, not every dog from any breeder is going to be healthy. No matter how careful a breeder is, eventually something will show up. All that means is that Bitch 'A' cannot be bred with Sire 'B'. It does not mean the breeder is bad. A bad Breeder is one who will continue to breed Bitch 'A' with Sire 'B', knowing that this combination has produced problem pups in the past.

JMHO. What do I know

I cannot for the life of my understand your logic with ANY BREEDER breeding for tinies. How can you say that a TEACUP is a medical term?

[sugarmamma]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

I cannot for the life of my understand your logic with ANY BREEDER breeding for tinies. How can you say that a TEACUP is a medical term?

That was my thought too. Also she never bred a bitch less than THREE pounds??? I have a 3 pounder....I've seen her belly. She has no business putting pups into little bellys

[manolos mom]

Originally Posted by sugarmamma

That was my thought too. Also she never bred a bitch less than THREE pounds??? I have a 3 pounder....I've seen her belly. She has no business putting pups into little bellys

[kjc]

Originally Posted by manolos mom

So, even though you know she breeds tinys, you still bought a dog from her?

No, I did not buy a dog from her, she gave me a retired breeder.

Originally Posted by sugarmamma

She did because she agrees with her "method"

I don't know if I 'agree' with alot of breeding that goes on.... I can't see a difference in breeding for a specific trait or a specific size. As long as no harm is done, if what one chooses to do can be done with minimal harm or losses.... keeping in mind that Standard breeders incur losses also.

Originally Posted by megansmomma

I cannot for the life of my understand your logic with ANY BREEDER breeding for tinies. How can you say that a TEACUP is a medical term?

Not so much my logic, but if one is passionate and successful at doing anything, and if laws are not broken and no animal or human is being abused or hurt, then what is the harm? There is definitely a market for tinies.

I didn't say Teacup is a medical term. I meant, looking at how Teacups came about from a medical point of view, they are the runts of the Bred for Standard litters. So when I see a Standard breeder selling puppies and they are also offering a Teacup, out of that same litter, that is where the Red Flags are or should be. That dog will most likely have medical problems. Then the term Teacup was applied to mean any smaller-than-Standard dog.

I am not here to judge if all this is right or wrong. I'm just saying that if I wanted to buy a Teacup sized Yorkie, I would buy it from someone who downsized a Standard Yorkie line, not from a Standard breeder who happened to have a runt in any given litter. What is the Standard now... 4 to 7 or 8 pounds? Many people on here have dogs below Standard size. Many like the Tiny Yorkies. I prefer the slightly larger ones, but that's just my personal preference.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by sugarmamma

That was my thought too. Also she never bred a bitch less than THREE pounds??? I have a 3 pounder....I've seen her belly. She has no business putting pups into little bellys

I used to breed rats and mice, so a 3 pounder looks kind of big to me... but I do understand and respect what you're saying.

[fancypooch]

Any news yet??? I am so sadden by this I saw this yorkie and fell in love with her on facebook so glad I didn't get her.

[makemepretty]

I just had to have my little girl put to sleep this week. It was one of the most horrible days of my life. She was 5 and had AAI, I bought her from Natalie for $4,500. I will say, she was worth every penny only because I wouldn't trade a moment I had with her. However, AAI is horrible and it was not a possibility for her to have surgery and I had never heard of the condition before and didn't know any of her past puppies had this. Natalie was nice enough to offer me a highly discounted replacement puppy, I am not replacing my baby and my pain is too new to even think about it but she did offer.

I just wanted people to know, no matter how many years of experience a breeder may have, there still can be a problem. No matter how many things you think you know a breed can have health concerns over, there is a chance you don't know about a few. A breeder can also be a very kind, loving, nice person and still have some health concerns in their line though.

[gracielove]

Most people who are not in any way connected with the dog breeding world have no idea what they are getting into when they buy a purebred dog. People think if the dog has AKC papers then they have bought a quality dog. AKC papers have nothing to do with quality. Although a reputable breeder will have AKC papers a puppy mill may also advertise as having AKC papers.

In order to maintain the "look" the "standard" of the breed special breeding techniques need to be used in breeding. Not abiding by proven genetic line breeding will result in changes in the quality or the "look" of the breed rapidly. Not doing this correctly can frequently result in genetic problems. Breeding one small pet quality dog to another small pet quality dog is going to produce a genetic disaster. There are so many money hungry greeders out there that take advantage of the current rage for tiny dogs that the quality of the various toy breed dogs have been ruined by these people.

Before you put your hard earned money out to buy a "tiny" or "tea cup" puppy look at the rescues for the breed. Many of these dogs suffer horribly from genetic disorders through out their short lifetimes. Yes, you may be one of the few that gets one that survives for a few years but is it worth it to the other pups that suffer and die in the first year? Is it worth it to support people who would do this to a breed in order to take advantage of an unsuspecting public? You can get a nice little dog, 4 to 7 lbs, from a reputable breeder that will give you years of love and enjoyment. Don't support people who breed to take advantage of the "tiny" "tea cup" scam.

[Yorkiemom1]

These babies are so vulnerable...it seems to me in my experience, from 5 weeks to 9 weeks, they are most likely to manifest any disease process that is going on...that is ONE reason irresponsible breeders dump these babies before they are 12-14 weeks old...if they can sell them at 6-8 weeks they will "luck out" and "get them gone before they get sick and cost the breeder any additional money.....or before they die on the breeder, and they get NOTHING for the baby. If the baby dies on the new owner, the breeder can at least swap out for another baby.....wont cost her in vet bills for the sick baby....and appeases the buyer. This is just ONE angle that people that are not "in the business" are not aware of....I dont know how old this puppy was, and this may not even be applicable in this case....but it is a reality that buyers need to consider when they go out buying babies too young. A RESPONSIBLE BREEDER KEEPS HER BABIES UNTIL THEY ARE 12-14 WEEKS OLD....THIS IS NOT JUST TALK, IT IS DONE FOR AN ETHICAL REASON, PEOPLE!!!...(IT COSTS US A LOT OF MONEY TO HOLD ONTO THESE BABIES THAT LONG....OUR PROFIT MARGIN DIMINISHES SUBSTANTIALLY...RESPONSIBLE, ETHICAL BREEDERS ACCEPT THIS AS A CONDITION OF BEING ETHICAL) ...USUALLY, BY THAT TIME, ALL THE USUAL PUPPY IDIOSYNCRASIES, ARE RESOLVED, AND THE CHANCES OF YOU GETTING A HEALTHY BABY, THAT HAS BEEN ON A WORMING PROGRAM SO IS NOT EATEN UP WITH WORMS, HAS PUPPY SHOTS ON BOARD, AND HAS BEEN SUCCESSFULLY WEANED AND IS EATING WELL, ARE SUBSTANTIALLY INCREASED. ~ I think you need to at least have a definitive diagnosis of everything that is wrong with this baby. Your vet will need to supply that or you dont have a leg to stand on. Most contracts state you have that baby seen by a vet within 36-48 hours....if you had done that, all these worms would have been evident and everything else this poor little soul is experiencing would have been pinpointed. You could have then contacted the breeder IMMEDIATELY and told her the condition of the baby...when the baby is seen immediately after purchase, there is NO way the breeder can say the pup was healthy when you got it....."YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING wrong" to make this puppy ill so she washes her hands of it. I certainly do hope this baby survives....she should, as worms are treatable and so is coccidia....good luck with this.....I am praying for your baby...

[Yorkiemom1]

I have messed up again, and written the above paragraph on an old post that looks so out of place as I read the post above it...I was trying to figure out what happened!! As usual, it was "operator error"...I posted on an old thread after just reading the first 3 posts made on this particular thread...sorry about that!

[ironmike86]

Originally Posted by kjc

I used to breed rats and mice, so a 3 pounder looks kind of big to me... but I do understand and respect what you're saying.

Funny . The breeder I know says she can't breed certain females because she will only produce mice. My understanding is you breed small males. Within the standard 4 lbs and larger females withing the standard so the females can carry easier. Dunno but there is a standard size. It maybe implemented because this is the size where Yorkies are the healthiest...?? The 4lbs that is. Bigger ones are usually healthier than small ones. But this is the range where they can be small and healthy. Personally I like them 6lbs or bigger. Small dogs ...damn be almost killed mine. I don't like that much worrying. I've had bigger dogs all my life. The Yorkie is the only small dog I like. Big personality in a small package. JMO

[cindersellie]

I'm sorry about your loss. Losing a friend is very hard

"Natalie was nice enough to offer me a highly discounted replacement puppy"

That was very nice of her to do. With your dog being 5, I'm sure she didn't have to make that offer. (I'm not a breeder, so I don't know how long they honor a well puppy agreement) I'm glad you had 5 yrs with her. Those memories are precious!

Getting a rescue dog is a good idea too. You'll know when your ready, and it's worth looking into.