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ok - now is the time for a totally ignorant person to ask a question. I would like to know if someone can recommend a GOOD book about the history of the Yorkie and how the standards are decided upon. There are a million books out there, but I'd really like to read correct facts, not opinons of the author. I'm fairly sure that the Yorkshire Terrier wasn't placed on this earth by God as we see them today. I think I read they are a mix of 3 other breeds, and over the years have changed considerably....again, I'm just getting bits and pieces and would love to learn more about their history and the change of the standards. I probably should have started a new thread, but most of the members here seem pretty knowledgable about this. Thanks for any inormation you can share. |
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Yes, I feel health testing in the most important when it comes to breeding. But how truthful are those tests? FlDebra, It was only a few months ago,on 9/14/10 that there were only 38 yorkies that were certified. Now you are stating all YTCA dogs in the ring have been certified...where is that documentation or is that just your opinion? I also have to ask why the AKC is not even requiring (just recommending) bile acid tests with the Yorkie even though they have one of the highest % of liver shunt dogs in all the breeds? Where is the health concern there? The following is just one small part of the two articles... ”Who would admit that their OFA certified dog became crippled or the CERF certified dog went blind? Not the vets, not the breeders, and least of all, the burgeoning health registries that were raking in $millions. OFA doesn’t care that less than 5% of owners ever re-certify a dog's hips or elbows due to expense, radiation exposure, or anesthesia risk. That alone makes a mockery of hip certification. But it gets worse. The priceless clear-hips certificate may not belong to that dog. Substitution has become so common that breeders joke about dogs that "glow in the dark." HEALTH CERTIFICATION (1) PERSPECTIVES, by Barbara J. Andrews CERTIFYING HEALTH CERTIFICATION & TESTING, by Barbara J. Andrews |
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To what I bolded, perhaps some dogs don't have a CHIC number yet. You have to submit the paperwork in for it to be listed on the CHIC site; however OFA hips, elbows, knee testing should be listed on their site, if the owner agreed to post the results. |
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If you're asking for temperance, it would seem appropriate to give it as well. I haven't seen anyone behave 'intemperately' yet. I'm not sure how to ask people not to feel *personal* about their opinions/thoughts/feelings about a subject....so I can't really offer anything there. All members are welcome to post on this thread. Members are also welcome to having different opinions, as I've stated innumerable times. I too am a member, and have the privilege of expressing my opinion on this thread. Thanks. |
Oh yes and CERF should be posted on their website. In terms of the links you posted, interesting reading, but not new. There has been anecdoctal evidence around for years that substitute dogs go in for CERF, HIP, ELBOW,etc. It is a travesty that permanent identification markers are not mandatory for any specialist and or vet doing the screening for same. There are also antagonists for the reading, and the procedure for doing the Xrays. I have posted in another thread about CERF needing to be repeated, and frequently too, the recommended from one source is yearly. The unfortunate truth is that PRA can occur at 4 or 5 yrs old with clear CERF;s till then. As far as patellar sublaxation, it is probably polygenetic, and Xrays can clear the breeding dog, but is little guarantee for it's progeny. What should be a concern for breeders and potential dog owners is where are the long term studies, on just how LP1 versus LP2 dogs do clinically over the years. What if any are the restrictions to movement, to a healthy life? What practical additives to food, exercise regimens will help insure a happy and healthy life? There are also studies that show over the long haul on certain breeds the incidence of hip dysplasia has not reduced significantly over OFA reporting life. We are left to wonder why |
I must be totally stupid because I cannot get into this whole 'Parti vs. Yorkie" thing. Why don't they just make a new color? The King Charles Cavalier has three colors: blenham, black and white, and tri-color. Are they all not recognized? Some people prefer the traditional yorkie colors and some prefer the Parti colors. What's not to like? |
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I started writing my post a few hours ago, and have had to come back to it. Thankfully, I am seeing more people speaking up for breeders who do so because of their passion and love for their dogs and who hold the health of the dogs in highest regard. I find that I will now be reiterating some things that have already been said. I respect those who believe in breeding to standard, and I understand those feelings. There are people who breed off-standard, however, who truly love their dogs and are not doing so to attract a pet buyer with a huge, inflated price tag. I've never personally seen a Parti or Biewer, but I understand what it is to truly love a dog. That kind of love became very apparent when I followed a thread in the Sick/Emergency forum when Tammy's Livi had her babies and their health was in danger. So many of us grew to love Livi and her babies, and we felt a great sigh of relief and happiness as we watched those babies grow and thrive. You bet I was thrilled when I learned whose homes those babies were going to. It wasn't so much that they were respected members of YT but that I knew that they were going to so loved and taken care of. Every time I read about those babies, there is such a tone of love running through every thread about them. They may not have been bred to standard, but I know I'm not the only one who finds their breeder to be great. It's difficult when you talk about little ones who are so loved not to take it personally, whether you are the breeder or the owner of the dogs. Not everyone who is breeding Partis or Biewers is doing so because of the demand and the chance to get a higher price tag. For many, it is about passion and love for the dog. I think because of passion and love for this breed, for some there is also fear of change, but I agree with Gail that the breed is in much greater danger due to byb and puppy mills. When the Yorkshire Terrier started to climb in popularity, I became fearful of what was to become of a breed that I've loved since childhood. With that popularity came those who wanted to breed to capitalize on that popularity. As much as I love the looks of this breed, it's much more about the temperament than the looks. The Yorkshire Terrier is a very beautiful dog. I know my little ones weren't true breed standard, but they were close enough to the look of the Yorkshire Terrier I know and love. I think it was a little easier for me to accept a Biewer looking different than a Yorkie looking different, because at least they didn't have to fit an image that I have in my head of what a Yorkie is supposed to look like. In the end, when you love them and they are yours, looks become so unimportant in the scheme of things. My first Yorkie Jolie was black and tan, Kiwi had one floppy ear, Gracie was almost perfect (to me) but too tiny, and I still haven't figured out how Ashley started to get curls (that I found beautiful) only as she started to age. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and those we hold dear aren't because of how they look. We love this breed, however, also because of the image that it holds for us, so the standard is still very important. I hope as more time goes by that more Yorkies are bred to standard with health and temperament being a priority. However, I think the Partis and Biewers are beautiful, too, and hope there will be more opportunities to those who are breeding healthy tri-colored Yorkies to have a venue to show their dogs and to be treated with respect that they deserve. |
i just wrote a huge huge statement that didn't come through. rather than write it again i'll just state that i am forming my own opinions and basically so far it is that i wish to see the yorkie standard stay blue and gold only and the white varieties of the dog to be known as a seperate dog breed NOT as a variation in color to the existing yorkie. this would be a great compromise to make everyone happy. i think as long as a breeder breeds to health and quality, they should be able to breed to a standard they as the breeder are looking for. someone who puts their life into changing the traits of a dog and creating an entirely new breed of dog should be able to do so. i don't think yorkies should be bred off standard for sales and pet industry, but breeding for the white traits in a dog and considering the end results a new breed of dog seems ok to me. if people don't change the traits in a dog's lineage then how will we ever get new dog breeds. every year the AKC recognizes more breeds. i just think a yorkie is a blue and gold dog and a white variety should be a new breed. we may never truely know if it's a gene that naturally happens in yorkies or if it's another dog breed that leaked into the line, but either way it can and prob. in the future will be a whole new breed of dog a white dog with blue and gold and brown and black colors in it's coat called something other than a yorkie and has the yorkie as it's ancestor. that's my opinion and i'm sticking to it. |
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Definition of PUREBRED according to the merriam-webster definition is: bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without a mixture of other blood over many generations Synonyms: blooded, full-blood, full-blooded, pedigreed (or pedigree), pure-blooded (or pure-blood), thoroughbred My parti's are purebred and they should have the same rights as the traditional blue and tan has. Color does not make a dog purebred, it's the years of uninterrupted purebred bloodlines in that's dogs breeding that make it a purebred. I don't feel that a yorkshire terrier, who's coat is not the perfect shade of steel blue (or who's ear is down, or has some smuttiness mixed in it's tan or is parti colored ...), is any less a purebred than what the standard calls for because it's his generations of purebred breeding, that makes that dog a purebred. |
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Akc does not recognize a variation of one breed as a different breed. |
double posted - sorry ... |
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I wrote Training Manuals for a living -- caps were headings, caps were used for emphasis, caps were used to focus attention --caps never meant yelling in that world. But even if they were to mean yelling -- would that always be a negative? Couldn't you use punctuated "yelling caps" for emphasis, for attention-getting, for good things even? I do use a lot of capitals, color changes, bold, underlines, etc. to show emphasis on certain passages in my posts -- always have and it was never an issue until here and now. Funny as I have been doing it since 2006. I will try to refrain from it if you want, but I find it breaks up a long post and makes things stand out that I want to emphasize. But I am not yelling. Is it only the capitals that are a problem? Can I still use bold/underlines & color changes? I tend to make long posts and without something to break it up or help in a quick scan.....they might get skipped (sheepish grin) altogether. The question was asked why they (partis) cost so much. It was answered with an unfortunate choice of words (the sucker comment) but I took that to only refer to those paying exorbinant prices and not all of the parti owners. I do not think anyone would have tried to intimate that every one of our parti-owners was a sucker! (Exclamation point for emphasis and not for yelling or intemperance). I was pretty sure that you knew that too and that is what I said. But maybe you don't think that. If that is the case, I really am sorry -- sorry that you would think any members here would think that, let alone post it. I am not saying you don't have the right to feel that way either, so please don't turn this on me too -- I am just saying I am sorry you would have those feelings as I know that would make you feel bad. I hope I am getting this worded so as not to be misunderstood or misinterpreted yet again. Think empathy, sympathy, compassion, and genuine caring for my fellow YT member here!! I never asked anyone not to post here in this thread or another? I have asked that we stay to topic and that we try to provide more reference than opinion but that seems to be a lost cause. I surely never asked you not to post! I definately have not asked that any stay away because of their opinions -- I asked that both sides be represented. I wanted a all-sided discussion not just one! So, I am not sure why you would advise me on everyone's posting rights. I don't want to assume anything by it. I would never presume to deny you or anyone else their opinion or feelings, I was just so hoping we could get a really good parti thread with BOTH sides presenting facts, historical information, and references and maybe, just maybe we could get it into a sticky for future reference. I truly wanted a thread without silly fighting, an intelligent sharing of information. I think I can do it without being personal. I can also do it without twisting meaning, words, or going completely off topic. Part of the temperance thing I spoke of before. Temperance does not just mean being calm. ;) |
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Tell the truth -- is this a tactic y'all thought up in advance? Get me spending so much time answering a lot of false accusations and I would have no time to post relevant information contrary to your opinion? Clever. ;) It is hard to get used to not using caps for emphasis! I had to go back and change a few to underline which are harder as I have to use the Underline feature instead of just the shift key as I typed. I like caps better. :) |
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You must have anticipated my justifying the certification since you are also saying the tests themselves are no good either. Wow -- covered all the bases on that one. I do notice you say your dogs are tested. Are you just wasting your money? What yardstick do you propose we use instead? Maybe we should just throw everything out -- no standards, no testing -- everyone just breed whatever you want? Is that what you are saying? (See how I ask you if you are saying that instead of just putting words in your mouth?) BTW .... since you are referring to CHIC.... they do require that "each dog be permanently identified in order to have test results included in CHIC. Permanent identification may be in the form of microchip or tattoo." So maybe that will cut down on your "glow in the dark" dogs. Pretty good huh? Made it through addressing all those accusations and still not yelling! I am going for the poster child of temperance. :) So missing my caps though! |
Beyond some old historical mentions of off-colored dogs and generic explanations of the piebald gene, there's not really much to say about partis that doesn't get into opinions. One curious thing...there's mentions of off colored dogs early on, then no mention at all for many years, and then they pop up again in recent years. I'm pretty sure what parti fanciers would say to this, but the re-emergence of these dogs after so many years makes me wonder. The thing about the pure bred dog world is that there are standards for each breed and, IMO, those standards should be followed. This was posted earlier from Webster's..... "Definition of PUREBRED according to the merriam-webster definition is: bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without a mixture of other blood over many generations". I would just say that the 'recognized strain', as pertains to the Yorkshire Terrier, has always been that of a blue and tan dog. There has never been a standard for this breed that included any other colors. My belief is that, when in doubt, always refer back to the standard. One other thing about this subject is the decision by the AKC to allow a parti designation in registering Yorkies. It goes against the parent club, which sets the standard. To me, this only fuels the debate and muddies the water on what the average person should make of this. |
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Let's take some of the other Yorkshire standards -- how about ears? Do we really need to adhere to upright, pointed ears? Some love their floppy eared dogs! Some yorkies are born with thicker ears that stay floppy no matter what a breeder does. Some aren't even pointed, but more rounded. Maybe we could okay those too. If we start only breeding the floppy eared dogs to each other, pretty soon they will all be floppy ears in our lines! Would it be fair to okay a change to standard for the color and not the ears? How about body structure? Is it necessary to have a compact "square" body? Why not start breeding those with the longest bodies with each other? Might be able to get a dachshund-shaped yorkie eventually! And is a straight topline really that important? How about size? Should we change that too -- maybe increase the maximum to 25 pounds? See where this is going? Pretty soon, there is little of the traditional yorkie so many great breeders spent so many years perfecting. Lifetimes have been devoted to our blue and tan beauties. I just want to see that future generations get to enjoy them. |
I'm all out of anything but opinions :D, but I do think that breeding for a fault....any fault, only sets a breed back in the larger sense. Not to say that off standard dogs don't turn up, even in good lines, but there's a big difference between having an off standard dog pop up in a litter as opposed to breeding for them. BTW, I love teapots!! |
Totally OT question... what is done when a yorkie's hair is "wrapped" for showing? I've seen this referred to a lot, but never really understood it. How long do the wraps stay in for, and is the dog restricted from activity while they are in? |
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Btw, we get several Reported Posts complaining of people 'yelling' - so maybe it's more familiar to me bc I have to deal with those posts. That said, there are plenty of posts here where people mention 'yelling', and address it right there on the thread. It's not new. Also, it's been in the YT Rules for years now. Quote:
Yes, it does appear that members here 'would think that' -- since it's posted and is the very subject of what we're talking about here (hello?). So no, I'm sitting here 'thinking' ..."hmmmm, self, I wonder if any members want to call anyone a sucker". I didn't have to think it, Debra, it was stated by another member. Quote:
An opinion is 'a personal view, attitude, or appraisal'. If you can give your opinions "without being personal", then great. But, my opinions come from me, personally....so I'm not sure how to give a non-personal opinion, as it seems like an oxymoron to me :rolleyes:. And again with the 'twisting words' or whatever - that is starting to seem like a control issue. So, I'll repeat this -- members can and *will* interpret things according to their own experience. YOU may view it as an altered meaning, incorrect, or off topic, etcetera - but please don't presume that the way you view things should be shared by everyone. Please stop informing the members that they're simply wrong in what they interpret - it's their interpretation! If you are truly interested in fostering discussion here, you might consider whether the way to go about it is to tell others that their perception or interpretation is basically just incorrect. |
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By allowing these colors to be registered against YTCA's wishes (obviously), it has created a mess. But here's an example of how genes can hide for many generations. The American Morgan Horse assoc. put a rule in the books 50 years ago, called the high white/blue eye rule, it was like the parti DQ rule. It was put in place because a single line of morgans started producing pinto coloring and the Morgan standard called for black, brown, chestnut or bay horses with minimal white markings. This rule, denied horses with white above the knee or blue eyes to be registered (trying to keep the pinto genes out of the gene pool). In the 80's blood typing became mandatory for registering foals and in the late 90's to the early 2000's, it was switched over to DNA. Then in 1996, the rule was repealed and it was felt by many, that the pinto gene had been erridacated from the gene pool but minimally white marked horses (who were actually carrying different genes for pinto coloring) began throwing louder marked foals with white over the knee and sometimes belly spots. I had my own surprise pinto foal born that year and I must have called the registry 5 times in 24 hours to see if I could register him. Luckily, he was born 3 months after the repeal of the High White rule so I named him High White Revolution aka, Rebel and he's registered with the American Morgan Horse assoc and double registered with a pinto registry, he's a minimally marked sabino with stockings above the hock, 8 inch belly spot, other various disconnect small spots and an apron blaze. This is where my interest in color genetics began. PictureTrail: Online Photo Sharing, Social Network, Image Hosting, Online Photo Albums - slide show of Rebel, 4 of the photos are when I owned him. Today, 50 years after the High white rule began and 25 years after parental verification started through blood typing and/or DNA, here are two examples of how pinto coloring is popping up out of minimally marked parents - these two horses are the loudest marked Morgans that I'm aware of, both get their pinto markings through the splash gene. http://memcmorgans.com/Tiger/Tiger-ad.jpg pinto news My point here is that these sneaky spotting genes, can hide in the form of "accepted" minimal white markings in animals for many generations. It happened in the Morgan breed and it happened in the Yorkshire Terrier breed as well. |
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Some show breeders do restrict the dogs activity (even living most of their life in a kennel or ex-pen), others will tell you they don't. Here's a link showing how it's done: Jon-An's Yorkshire Terriers (How I wrap a show dog) Jon-An's Yorkshire Terriers (How I wrap a show dog) |
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How truthful are the tests? Only as truthful as the dog's owner. If the owner chooses to cheat I would guess they will. But for every scum bag that is dishonest my bet is that there are many owners who use the tests honestly. I know that OFA will refuse to list a dog owners tests results on all dogs owned by a person that has been shown to switch dogs or falsify test results. I would hope that YTCA would take action too. Unfortunately most dogs in the ring these days do not have CHIC numbers. AKC is a registry and does not involve themselves in issues such as dogs having CHIC numbers. There are a few breeds that require all the adult dogs entered at their specialty have a CHIC number. Wouldn't that be great in our breed? That rule in itself would probably put some breeders/exhibitors in an early grave!!!! As for the frequency of the tests, one CERF and one OFA Patellar is required for a CHIC number in yorkies. And eye disease can be late onset. So it's up to the person wanting to use the dog at stud or buy a pup from a breeding pair of yorkiess to ASK why the dog's test hasn't been redone!!! Insist that tests are up to date. When that type of pressure is put on breeders they will start testing and retesting. Hip Dysplasia - Do you know it is in this breed and there are kennels that are knowingly breeding and showing dysplastic dogs? As some parti breeders are welcoming CH yorkie lines into their breeding programs they should be very concerned with OFA results. And a one year old dog isn't going to test good for hips on the preliminary x-ray and then become dysplastic as an adult. Knees - it goes without saying that you want the knees examined by manual examination on a dog that is fully awake. Not by x-ray and not under anesthesia. Why would anyone justify breeding two dogs with bad knees, parti or normal colored yorkie? Bile Acid testing - Right now test results are all over the board. There is no consistency in the test protocol or test results. When the marker is found for liver disease I'm sure that you'll see that test required for CHIC. You can find many excuses for not testing. Your post resembles the sentiments of many breeders. They haven't tested in all the years that they've been breeding so why start? And a good number have "secrets" about their dogs that they don't want known. CHIC is about disclosure. That is what so many don't want any part of! But given time more and more will test. Parti breeders want respect for their dogs and recognition as ethical breeders so will they start testing too? |
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How long are they left in....they are taken down daily to check for ring around (matting under the band). Fresh wraps are put in as needed.....but, replaced completely after each bath. The types of wraps used is dependent on coat texture and sex of the dog. Plastic used more for male dogs. Paper/silk used for females and coats with less density. |
Thanks, jencar and Mardelin for explaining wrapping. Does anyone here have pictures of their dog wrapped? Also, I was wondering if someone could provide a short "CHIC for Dummies" post (or reference) for the rest of us trying to keep up. :D |
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Canine Health Information Center |
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