Your question is not dumb at all, it has been asked before, because you're right, the two do look very similar. Many believe, myself included, there isn't a difference other than that Biewers originated in Germany and the partis here in the U.S. Some Biewer breeders wanting acceptance in AKC maintain Biewers are a new breed and AKC should accept them as such. The original full name given to Biewer was Biewer Yorkshire Terrier a la Pom-Pon.

It gets confusing in these threads as you will see or have already seen.:)

it would be nice to actually have a debate for once that doesn't end in fighting wouldn't it. i just like hearing all the "Factual" information from both sides of the debate. it's how i best form an educated opinion.

i think i'd have a much better peace about it knowing that they were biewers and a "new dog breed" than partis which still want and desire to be known as a yorkie. a yorkie is a yorkie is a yorkie. blue and gold standard, but a biewer could become a whole new dog breed someday if they maintain that it's not a yorkie it's a new dog...who knows.

1. Also try Google books-there's a "preview of it looks like the entire text to me-I have a student account associated with my University so I can't tell if its one you can see there without a certain membership...but if it is... there is FREE! P.S. You can by pass the c.r. or fees from downloading by copy paste in the student version of MS Word if you have 2007 or more so you can save the text.
2. I think the reference to not having things referenced off breeder sites was to keep sales pitches out of the equation-at least I hope that was the ideal...I see Debra also posted she'd lie this thread to be for references...I don't know about anyone else but I'm stoked on that-something besides someone saying so too see for yourself-really hard to sift through all the "junk" on the net to find something reliable, when you are on either side-in the middle or just trying to learn-I really get annoyed seeing so called authorities being quoted with their opinion though as a relevant fact...but at least I can see it for myself this way.
3. To the few who posted with confusion-don't feel bad. The first few times I saw Biewers I thought they were just Parti's that carried a name of a breeder because someone felt like naming "their" Partis after them-seeing the distinction between a Biewer and a Parti now is recognizable to me...but when you first see them and try to associate it can be very confusing. I'm still under the impression Biewers were created and that Parti's are a naturally occurring "fault" but a natural occurrence nevertheless due to the basics of genetics...now bred specifically for the natural occurring "fault" (recessive gene dominance).
4. I didn't know that knowing whom was who in the Yorkie world was a requirement of YT...I thought we all came here to share, learn, enjoy and socialize about Yorkies...of all kinds...

Since the AKC requires a new breed to be from at least 3 other breeds, one of the several Biewer clubs in the US is now trying to say exactly that so they can apply as a new dog breed and get into the AKC. The Biewers are accepted in some registries outside the US and one of the NON-AKC registries here has decided to let them in. But the AKC has not as yet.

Partial Quote
I don't think there is a definitive history on white appearing in these dogs. Some older texts do have mentions of dogs with white, white dogs, etc., but nothing definite.

One of the parti clubs has several old texts on their website.

I've found mention in a book from 1894 of off colored dogs in the ring. Here's a quote from it...

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"There are some other rough-haired toy terriers, which are, however, of little account, because they have never been bred to any particular type. Occasionally wee things very like what a miniature Skye terrier would be are seen; and, again, some smart little dogs with cut ears, evidently a cross between a Yorkshire terrier and some other variety of small dog, are not at all uncommon, and were quite numerous before the dog show era commenced. Since then the general public will not look at anything other than what is considered to be of blue blood. At one of the early London shows separate classes were provided for Scotch terriers under 71b. weight and white in colour, fawns with the same limit, and blues likewise, each of the three attracting a fair entry, most of which were, however, what we should now call "cross-bred" broken-haired toy terriers."

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...and this is from the breed standard for the Yorkshire Terrier from the same book.

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"Coat
The hair as long and straight as possible (not wavy), which should be glossy, like silk (not woolly); colour, a bright steel blue, extending from the back of the head to the root of the tail, and on no account intermingled the least with fawn, light, or dark hairs."

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here's the link... The Terriers. A History And Description Of The Modern Dogs Of Great Britain And Ireland | by Rawdon B. Lee

The Book of the Yorkshire Terrier by Joan McDonald Brearley is another good book.

And if you want to get into stastics, the Heritage I & Heritage II, you use to be able to order them from the YTCA.....

As I said Mrs Gordon herself believes totally in the yorkie standard. I am not disputing that. I said she said the mismarked dogs should be spayed/neutered and petted out.
What I am trying to educate about is that the parti and other colors CAN be born to 2 traditional yorkies and by that it does not make them another breed. They are still yorkies, just the wrong color for the standard. As I have pointed out, even Joan had a parti born into their kennel, she registered him AKC because he was a yorkie. She had the parents and him spayed and neutered so they could not pass on this gene. She certainly didn't want to contribute to a color that she did not believe represented the yorkie.
Yes, I understand the yorkie standard, its blue and tan coat is what it is known for more so than anything else about it.

I am not disputing this, I am just showing that the parti can be in the genetics of the yorkie. And I'm tired of people saying they are a mix.
Frankly by all that keep preaching they are a mix, you are calling Joan a liar.
#1 She states they can be born tri color in her book.
#2 She had one born into her kennel from a very long line of Wildweir dogs, and she didnt mix anything into them, she registered her one tri color with AKC.
So I say yes, parti's can be born from 2 traditional color yorkies, that is why AKC opened the registery for them because they were shown that it does happen.

The First Biewer(tri color yorkie) was born from 2 Champion traditional yorkies , which by the way has the very same ancestor in common from England and the Nikkos line of partis.
They are the same dogs. They both are yorkies.
You have YTCA members that own Biewers so they are spouting that they are a separate breed. Heaven forbid should they get caught owning a parti so they push and push the separate breed issue.
How can the Biewer suddenly morph into another breed when it derived from 2 yorkies and Mr Biewer bred back to the traditional color yorkies up until 1992. Some of his tricolors were registered with VDH/KFC as Yorkshire terriers.
The first Biewer/tri-color born to Mr Biewer was in 1984, Joan Gordon had one born in 1976, and she states that the tri color Yorkie was imported into Germany from England.

The first Biewer standard was that of a yorkie except for color and the Biewers tails were docked until Germany outlawed it.

Color does Not make a new breed.

In this picture you can see Mr Biewers tri colors with his traditionals. These are the dogs he bred. As you can see they are yorkies.

I've been wanting to ask, but didn't have the guts to before, (same reason I never asked about Joan Gordon) has there ever been any all steel blue or black yorkie? I have seen threads where people are proud of their all white yorkies, or close to it, and I think I recall seeing an all tan one. (can't remember, it could have been a mix) So has there ever been a yorkie that is all dark before? Or would the dark ones be considered "chocolate" or liver colored yorkies. Sorry if that's a dumb question, I was just wondering.

My Biewer is in my Avatar :D

Since I love my Yorkies I happened to think that's a very sweet picture --- however, looks like a puppy mill to me...running Yorkie down a cattle shute!
RE: all the debate over a parti/biewer being a Yorkie or not...again, love my Yorkies, but why is it important that a parti and/or biewer be recognized as a "Yorkie"...what's wrong with being a "parti" or a "biewer" Do parti or biewer owners think Yorkies are really "all that"?

After my first daughter was born at a large family baptismal gathering, there was much debate as to who she looked like (my hubby or myself)...baby Jessica was passed around with everyone giving their opinion, finally she was handed off to the wise, wise family matriarch, who looked her over slowly and very carefully and said, "I think she looks like...." --- the room got still, she was going to speak, her opinion would be the final word..."I think she looks like...Jessica." And that was that.

My point is if coloring isn't affecting their health, what's the big deal? What's wrong with a "parti" being a "parti" and a "biewer" being a "biewer"?
I think the pictures I've seen of YT members parti's and biewers they are beautiful and they deserve to be in a class by themselves.
Kendra

I may be "speaking" out of place, but I believe the issue is when people start classifying partis and biewers as a rare commodity (which I have seen happen) people who think they can make a quick buck off of them. When people think that money can be made they will focus on the one trait and breed only for it, ignoring the important things when breeding (health and soundness). Have you seen this thread?
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...-luxpup-4.html

In this post you can see the link to what those pups look like. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/3367356-post48.html
My guess is they breed for tinnies and the head is subsequent deformity because of it. They give it a cutesy name and market it for more money.

I'm blown away I thought Biewers and Parti's were different! My mind is so confused now! So they stereotypical black(ish) white and semi red (tan) toned Biewer is actually just a Parti at the extreme? So when people say Tri-colored they are talking about Biewers and Partis!? :confused:
I posted pics of the stereotypical Biewer first and the most commonly found example of a Parti-thus you can see the difference-was I the only one missing that whole part-WOW?
I thought the Biewer was a Parti the first time I saw one-then I thought they were different types of Yorkies now they're the same-my head is spinning here!
Good thing I'm reading this thread and learning! So breeding Parti to Biewer is a non-issue (what's this Biewer to Biewer only breeding claim ppl make then?) then because they are the same and both share a recessive gene which has been brought out purposefully-considered a "fault" gene or not...it was first attempted to be bred out and now attempted to be bred back in?
When the breeder whom bred one of my dogs explained to me she ended her Parti line and began breeding Biewers and that Elvis was purely the product of four generations of Parti to Parti directly showing his lineage to the (Nikko) line she was fudging it as Partis and Biewers are the same just somewhat divided now? Out of curiosity what is the division now?
And why is there a Poodle (schnauzer) looking (mix) dog in the pic of the Biewer's dogs? Yorkie guard dog?

The picture of the second Yorkie you posted is not a parti. It is a parti gene carrier.

I am so glad you asked that question. I was also wondering about it.

Thanks for those references! So it seems we had some breeders trying to cross Yorkshires with other breeds even back then! It does show thta we have tried very hard to keep the other colors OUT of the yorkshire terrier for a good long time too. That is what saddens me at so many increasing the white -- whether it be a fault or a purposeful cross-breeding. White does not belong in the Yorkshire Terrier. Your example of early breeding records show they have tried very hard to keep it out as part of perfecting the breed. Makes me wonder what good is a standard, if everyone were to ignore it?

Good question! Although I have seen some where the tan part is very dark (out of standard) I have not seen one with all black or steel blue. A true chocolate still has tan, they just have a dark brown where a yorkie is supposed to be black/blue. They also usually have liver colored nose instead of black. I have seen the all gold/tan yorkies. I would be interested in reading the genetics of why we don't see the all black as an occasional fault. Maybe some of the experienced breeders have seen one. I'll watch for more answers.

Now you are in to OPINION. There are several clubs for both the Biewer and Parti-color yorkie. Most do not agree that they are the same dog. AKC accepts Parti to register (not to show and not recommended to breed) but they do not register Biewers. If you breed Biewer to Parti -- those puppies cannot be registered with AKC -- one of the NON-KC registries have to be used if the AKC Parti is dual-registered. It is not so clear cut as to say they are the same dog. If they are the same then there is some drastic differences in the lines.

Yes, there are all black , all gold and there are all blue yorkies. The all blue yorkies are called blue borns and most have health issues.
T

The word parti is in reference to the parti colored yorkie.
The breed is Yorkshire Terrier, the color stated on the AKC papers says " Black and tan Parti color.
People just use the term parti yorkie to describe their tri colored dogs. They are not a separate breed. Just a different color.

What do you mean Drastic differences?

I have read a tiny bit about blue borns. It was my understanding that they have a skin condition, which I assumed was the cause of the off coloring. Can anyone clarify?

The reason I ask about all steel blue/black yorkies is there are lots of times that I've read diseases can be corolated when breeders breed in search of a single trait. (color, size, etc.) The only partis I've ever seen are pictures on YT. I've never seen one in person. As far as I can tell, the parti gene seems harmless since the babies on YT all seem relatively healthy. It's not a fact however and I'm not stating that partis are healthier than traditionals, as I have done 0 research into the health of partis vs traditional yorkies. But that does sound like an interesting summer project. :p Size I have seen there is more care and concerns when breeding for size, but I've yet to hear about partis. That is until this post.
If blue borns are the "blue" version of parti yorkies, I would suspect that maybe there is a correlation between color and illness. Can anyone elaborate on this?

No, blue borns are not the product of partis, any yorkie can have blue borns.
Peter Coombs book written between 1870 and 1880 states that puppies are often born grey and tan (Which is what today we call blue borns). The gene that produces the grey coat dies and the puppy will lose all its hair. It becomes a hairless dog with only tan which of course carries the living gene to produce this color. This is a blue gene that is a lethal gene. Again it developed in England where it originated from.

No, I don't mean they are the products of partis. More like they were the "dark" version of a gene mutation similar to partis. Sorry for the confusion!

Parti is just the description of a color of a yorkie with white on it, When you say Parti colored yorkie it means that they have white. Some have shortened to phrase from parti-colored to Parti. Just like a Parti colored cocker spaniel, it means they are spotted.
Parti colored yorkies have the same health issues as traditional colored yorkies. That is why you should never buy a puppy either parti colored or traditional that has never had any health tests done or the parents DNA'd and health tested.
There are too many people out there that DO breed anything and pass them off as something they are not.. Be very careful when buying any pet.

There are gene mutations in all sorts of animals. Over and over it has been recorded to Just show up out of nowhere.
The Labrador retriever has had alot of odd colors show up, even out of 2 Champion dogs.
Mismarks & other odd markings in Labradors part 2 - Woodhaven Labradors

I have not seen any examples of all black. I've seen pictures of blue born, chocolates but no all black. Do you have any pics? Makes sense that some would be born, just have never once heard of a breeder saying they have an all black one.

For DvlshAngel -- Blue born pups often have problems and very often do not survive long.

I mean comparing the original Biewers with some of what are being sold as Parti's now, there are drastic physical differences. For instance.... Mr. Biewer bred his tri-color yorkies to have white bellies and four white paws. The standard for Biewer includes: "The head must have three colors; blue/black, white and gold in good symmetry. The belly, chest, legs and the tip of the tail is white. Full tail. The back is black/blue or black/blue with white in it. The hair is silky, not curly. "

Taking a look through many of the sites selling partis today and you will not see anything close to that -- no consistency. I just went to the very first entry that came up on a bing search for parti yorkies for sale: Female Parti Yorkies, puppies for sale in OK. Take a look at the male & female part yorkies -- most of them do not have 3 colors on their head, not a lot of symetry, brown on feet, and one appears to only have 2 colors. Just compare "Cart's Parti Tyme Paris" to one of Mr. Biewer's dogs! There are drstic differences. I went to the second one that came up on the search Female Yorkshire Terriers and Female Parti yorkies -- again, the dogs being shown as parti's do not look anything like the beautiful dogs that Mr. Biewer bred. "Maggie" for instance is drastically different from Mr. Biewer's dogs, and doesn't have much of the "yorkie look." Let's go to the third kennel on the search result: Yorkshire Terriers, Parti Yorkies, Chocolate Yorkies, Golden Yorkies,Dogs and Puppies for Sale. These puppies are losing the yorkie look. The face, the head shape, the coloring -- not at all what Mr. Biewer had in mind, I don't think.

These are not at all the worst or the most drastically different that I have seen -- some do not even look like they have yorkie in them anymore. But I did not want to look for the worst case scenario -- instead I went with the first three on a search engine result -- that way it is completely unbiased.

I have read that there is a parti standard and that it is the same as the yorkie with the exception of color which is two or more colors, one of which is white. I have also read there is no standard for the parti. Since the Biewer require 3 color and give specific markings, the "standard" given on some parti sites is not at all the same. So, little wonder they would be drastically different. If there is no standard, then again, that does not lead breeding toward any particular goal so again, no wonder they are so different than Mr. Biewer's carefully planned results.

First off the original Biewer standard has been changed several times. Once the Biewers hit the United States is when all the changing of the names and standards took place. The 3 color standard was not Mr. Biewers standard. He named them Biewer Yorkshire A LA Pom Pon.
Isnt it funny how in the Biewers, that in the same litter of puppies they can be registered differently. The tri color pups are registered as a biewer and the traditional colors are registered as yorkshire terriers. They both have the same parents and were born in the same litter, so now tell me how they can be separate breeds???
The parti and the biewer are yorkies, the color on their head turns tan/ gold as they get older just as the yorkie does. Now as to how light or dark the tan/gold is, well thats breeding. Alot of show people dye their yorkies in order to have that perfect color.
There are bad breeders in every breed of dog.
There are yorkies that don't look like yorkies posted all over puppy find, actually its the same in any breed.
This is a Biewer in the first picture, does he look like the dogs in the 2nd photo of Mr Biewer with his dogs.
The 3rd photo is a Biewer and the last photo is Parti yorkies.
Wonder which ones look more like Mr Biewers dogs.