How can you say that with a straight face?

When one breeds two parti's, they know they will end up with a litter of parti's. But now when one breeds two traditional colored dogs, they could end up with a standard, a parti carrier or a parti. Hardly a minor effect.

As for many other breeds allowing color variances without it affecting the breed... what about White Boxers and double dappled doxies or Merled Austrailian Shepards, Collies and Great Danes?

It's kind of odd, but nice, to see us agreeing on something about the partis :).

Good to see you're striving for a lot of color, but I'm confused, too, about how that can be predictably accomplished. At any rate, good luck with that.

NO, not if you make a standard.
You will always have those who don't care, but most will strive for a colored head.
I and some others I know have had great luck in breeding parti carriers to partis and getting good color.
There are alot of parti colored dogs in the show ring, like the parti cocker spaniel. You have to have a standard.

Has there ever been a standard that 50% of the parti breeders agreed upon? You say that the mother club should write the standard, but wouldn't there still many/most breeders who didn't like that standard, and wanted their personal markings to be accepted? Right now, parti breeders talk about breeding "outside the box", or doing their own thing, I just don't see how that would change. Furthermore, how can you write a standard for someone who doesn't believe in the standard, or see the importance of breeding to it?

Change; we don’t like it, we fear it, but we can't stop it from coming.
We either adapt to change or we get left behind.
And it hurts to grow, anybody who tells you it doesn’t is lying.
But heres the truth, the more things change, the more they stay the same. And sometimes, oh, sometimes change is good. Oh, sometimes.... change is everything.

Even with the Piebald gene, if you know your lines, you know what each dog tends to throw.. some throw more gold, some throw darker faces.. some throw a blaze.. you try and breed for what you are looking for. This is very different than just throwing two dogs together and seeing what happens, as it seems some feel that Parti/Biewer breeders do. Although the amount of color or it's placement is way down my list of priorities, it is still of concern.

Most of my dogs carry the Irish spotting gene rather than the Piebald.. I breed Irish spotting to Irish Spotting and most come out, Irish spotting.. however, my lines tend to have faces that "wash out" early.. loose the deep rich colors and "clear" to tan or cream while the backs remain darker blue. I loose the "gold" that I desire.. so, I breed to another line that maintains the gold.. but of course, then you may loose the ears, or the top line.. so see.. it's no different than breeding the traditional colors.. we still have all of the same concerns .. breeding towards the ideal.

Will we ever get it all in one dog??? Most likely not, but we keep trying. For me, I will work first on health, a strong confirmation and character then worry about the color...

Diana :animal-pa

Piebald Gene and pigmented head color
 

Present day thinking about colored heads on dogs who have the piebald gene, is that there may be a gene or gene modifier that is linked with piebald gene that causes colored heads:

"It is not clear to what extent the S series affects head pigment. Color-headed white shelties, for instance (swsw), can have completely colored heads - not even a forehead star or white nose. On the other hand, relatively conservatively marked dogs can appear with half white or all white heads. There is probably at least one other gene series that affects head markings. It is at least possible that the plus and minus modifiers affect head and body markings simultaneously."

Coat Color Genetics

As for writing a standard for parti coloring, I still believe that will be a hard one to do if you get too specific due to the random nature of how the spotting works.

The Toy Fox terrier has a pretty detailed standard:

Color
Tri-Color: Predominately black head with sharply defined tan markings on cheeks, lips and eye dots. Body is over fifty-per-cent white, with or without black body spots. White, Chocolate and Tan: Predominately chocolate head with sharply defined tan markings on cheeks, lips and eye dots. Body is over fifty-percent white, with or without chocolate body spots. White and Tan: Predominately tan head. Body is over fifty-percent white with or without tan body spots. White and Black: Predominately black head. Body is over fifty percent white with or without black body spots. Color should be rich and clear. Blazes are acceptable, but may not touch the eyes or ears. Clear white is preferred, but a small amount of ticking is not to be penalized. Body spots on black headed tri-colors must be black; body spots on chocolate headed tri-colors must be chocolate; both with or without a slight fringe of tan alongside any body spots near the chest and under the tail as seen in normal bi-color patterning. Faults: Color, other than ticking, that extends below the elbow or the hock. Disqualifications: A blaze extending into the eyes or ears. Any color combination not stated above. Any dog whose head is more than fifty-percent white. Any dog whose body is not more than fifty-percent white. Any dog whose head and body spots are of different colors.

Say the parti's would come up with a standard like this, what happens if a pup is born with some of the disqualification markings? Is that pup not registered and should be to be spayed and given away as a pet, or is that pup just not suitable for showing?

A standard like this, indicating a percentage of white or coloring, would basically keep any parti with the extreme white piebald gene from showing since many only have markings on or around their tail.

I do like how the face markings standard is written though :-)

This is a really salient point. Some folks seem so angry at parti breeders. One reason I've never really understood the heightened emotions over the parti/biewer issue is similar to what Jeanie mentions above.

Every dog on this planet is descended from the Gray Wolf. So, unless someone has a gray wolf, then the dog they currently have is a mix who came from the gray wolf. A 'purebred' happens over time; yorkies didn't just appear on the planet.

Makes me wonder if 10,000 years or so ago (give or take, depending upon when you see the wolf/dog split), when humans were creating all the mixes (now breeds) we see today - whether or not the passion reached the heights it does today.

At the end of the day, we all have a 'mixed' dog and every breed started as just that. And every breed 'standard' is created by humans. Not only that, but those same humans who set the standard, then change the standard...so, I guess change is acceptable....but maybe only ostensibly??

I guess one of my main points is, I don't understand the notion that breeding partis (or biewers, or whatever other controversial breed) is just plain wrong, as some indicate. Whose to say that any breed/strain/mix that was created (incl yorkies) was wrong or right? :confused:

They are still AKC registered, as they are out of 2 AKC dogs.

LOL-Another set of $2 words for ya...
I unsubscribed but received a message privately about this forum because well I'm not going to deal with the rudeness and overall anger issues of some people along with someone else's issues and inability to be so intelligent in understanding concepts yet so off the mark with understanding correlation...oh well..but I heard it was taken further OT by how others felt hurt over a concept and I came back to say this to everyone because the email I got was really sad, and that's so unnecessary for people to turn this into something so ugly, especially to really nice people-say what you want about me to pick on some other people here and then to go back and forth their dogs-I thought this was YT not YTC recognized dogs only...or AKC show accepted only...just sad.

If you say you are not against a dog just against breeding it...how does that make sense...then you are again the pups..by default that dog's lineage and that dog no? Not against the dog but it's breeding...but it's parents breeding were you against that...why were they sick...carried a genetic disorder...a fault...the only fault was color?!?

Parti's are just a variation of Yorkie's I think everyone established that. Yes their breeding is often a mess of anything goes..as with standard Yorkies...it all depends on the breeder.

Saying because of color they are not selectively bred...is a real slap in the face to every Parti breeder on here (perhaps the Biewer breeders too).

Talk to some Parti breeders color is only one aspect, there are several very reputable Parti breeders posted on this thread-amazingly I mistakenly posted a pic of a Yorkie Parti carrier and noted it as a Parti (saw silver for white-could have happened to anyone-:cool:) that dog actually belongs to a breeder on here I'd been refereed to several years before when talking to individuals whom show standard Yorkies, as a reputable breeder-low and behold she is a Parti breeder on YT-small world-amazing how standard Yorkie breeders name her as reputable when referring someone looking for a Parti dog but when the issue of Parti comes up there so many call it irresponsible breeding and so on many...I'll leave it up to those people to identify themselves if they choose to here...

I have only noticed one standard strictly breeder stand up for Parti breeders-to that person-wow you are amazing for being so kind and not wearing silly blinders in your compassion and ability to recognize responsible breeding practices-weather you like the color or not...or weather that color could be made uniformed--well if it was they'd be a Biewer and not a Parti right, isn't that the real difference-Biewers just tried to make Parti super uniformed in their Tri-color markings once they were being accepted in America-that's where I was confused I thought they had another breed mixed in during their creation in Germany to create the control of the color placement "uniformity" with the Biewers-another debate for another thread though.

All the best to everyone on this thread...I said everythign as plainly as I could and really spelled out everything...oh wait no I didn't, LOL mean laughing out loud for anyone whom wasn't aware.

If parti's were ever accepted (in a perfect world), I'm just worried that the parti's who fall outside the "written" parti standard, would be discriminated in the same manner that the parti's are seeing today.

In other words, if the parti standard is too descriptive and the ones who's color percentage falls outside the standard, if we won't be hearing people say "these dogs should be spayed, should not be registered and be given away as pets" (because they have more than 70% body white)?

In my opinion , even the parti's need boundries. If you let it be a free for all, and not limit the white, they will be an all white dog. An all white dog is not a parti yorkie. Parti color yorkies should not have an all white head, all white face or a badly mismarked head. IMO discriminate or not.

Parti means, Two or more definite, well-broken colors, one of which must be white. For example, Black Parti-color would be black and white. Color definitions may vary by breed. Always check the breed standard for the definitive color description.
The 70% I said was just a scenario, it could be 80 or so as long as the head is symmetrical.

<<<<<LOL-Another set of $2 words for ya...
I unsubscribed but received a message privately about this forum because well I'm not going to deal with the rudeness?>>>>>>

Rudeness? I will see your LOL and raise you a LMAO. Have you ever read what you write. You are the poster child for rudeness. Your entire posts oozes rudeness.

Have a wonderful day.

Not sure who wrote this, but makes perfect sense.

The Biewer is a result of a recessive piebald gene found in the Yorkshire terrier...the breed developed in the 1980's.Mr.Biewer spent five years selectively breeding before he developed the line and established the true breed. So this is many years of breeding(still pretty new).The breed is accepted and showed in Germany as their own breed and many other countries.

The term parti when it comes to a yorkie is a term that I would be leery of. Though I feel that the Biewer started out a bit back yard breeder-ish. They are now a full on club and most of the breeders connected with the breed are doing the right things as far as health testing. They are continuing to research and study the genetic makeup of the Biewer. The Biewer now has so many generations that its no longer just two yorkies put together that have the recessive piebald gene.

I can see how some yorkies have the recessive piebald gene and these breeders call them parti-yorkies but they aren’t exactly Biewers.
byb jack up the price of a parti-yorkie because they are trying to make them new and rare...and people will pay that much for something different. But it’s a scam...there was a problem a few years ago with all gold yorkies, its all just a scam.These people aren’t geneticist just breeder who have faults in their lines.

I believe the Biewer has a weight limit of 8 or 7 lbs.

I recommend a Yorkshire terrier. But If you want a Biewer go through the Biewer terrier club of america and find a breeder...make sure they test and provide a DNA test so you know your getting a Biewer and not just a yorkie with the recessive gene.Stay away from those who advertise Parti Yorkies

Biewer club of America breeder list below.
http://www.biewer-btca.com/membershiplis…

This is the best place to find a yorkie breeder.
http://www.ytca.org/breeder3a.html


ADD:::No dog breed we have today came out of alchemy people!! breeds evolved over the years and some breeds have seperated....NORFOLK AND NORWICH TERRIERS hello!!! they were considered one breed at one point and because of the pricked ears were separated...What is the difference really?Who decided to do that or only decided to breed ears down??…so were they byb's ?and considered scam artists becasue some ears were up and some were not and one had a preference??


and America and the AKC isnt the end all to what is expectable in this world,each country is different....the Biewer is excepted in many countries and they are shown and titled...I personally am not a fan of the Biewer but If you buy respnsibly whats the difference...at least most of the people involved are trying to get the breed recognized. Every breed didnt start out being "legit"in the eyes of the AKC. The whole show dog world is superficial anyways its about looks and people take it upon themselves to decide what looks good and what doesnt and thus many breeds have changed...so in the 80's Mr.Beiwer decided he liked a white/tri-colored yorkie and many have followed.At least they are trying to be legit.Just like the Norfolk and Norwich fanciers many years ago right? PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME THE DIFFERENCE!?

All that from a club president that was banned from showing for life .

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...rs-owners.html


:bravo::lol tears:lol tears:lol tears:sidesplt::sidesplt:

it sure is great that there is an Official Breed Standard. With that, have a wonderful 2011.

I totally agree with the head markings but body marking on a dog with the extreme white gene may not be more than a spot or two.

Maybe there could be a minimum amount of spotting like "must have at least 2 inches of pigmented markings on the body." Just as a Blue and tan Yorkshire terrier is allowed a 1" white marking on it's chest, maybe a certain number in inches would work when dealing with an extreme white parti. Basically any spotting on the body, would indicate parti coloring but definitely symmetrical head markings for all with points taken off for asymmetrically marked heads.

I asked this, it really is a legitmate question.

I don't see a problem with a white body as long as the head has the correct color.
Like these cockers have a few spots.

What you again fail to miss is that no one is against the DOGS. The dogs had no say on whether they were bred poorly or not. What people are against is the breeder who feels the need to try to make a buck breeding purposely on a fault. It's really no different than someone who purposely breeds cobble bodied, bobble headed, Hello Kitty faced tinies. Sure, they may be AKC registered, but that sure isn't worth the paper it's printed on, is it?

Change for the sake of change. And if you can make a buck off of it, so much the better.

It's not the idea that they are breeding other things, they want the YTCA to change the standard because of what they have chosen to do. The YTCA is there to Protect the standard, do you see the conflict? YTCA members have promised to protect and preserve the standard.

I believe there is room for more breeds, but I don't believe that a breed is necessary better if it has more variety. What some Biewer Clubs are trying to do is different than what some parti breeders are trying to do because some parti breeders seem only interested in producing pets, and vilifying the YTCA. Why do they even want to be accepted by a breed club that they have so little respect for? If you want to create a variation of a breed, you need to get a group of like minded people and form a breed club, set a standard and adhere to it, and start showing, your goals should be more than to produce pets or even to have AKC status. You should have a code of conduct for your members, and your long-term goal should be that you would like this variety of breed to be around 100 years from now even better than it is now. By better, I mean more healthy examples that consistently produce the qualities of "standard". In the early days of a breed club, standard may change, but as they learn more about this particular variety and do health testing they can tweak their standard. However, at some point in time they should be very concerned about changing it just to bring in more variety.

Why don't you ask the YTCA, since they are the parent club for the parti and all yorkshire terriers right now.
I wouldn't know what parti breeders agree or disagree on because it has never been brought to a table or to a meeting with the YTCA.
As for your last question, that's kind of a catch 22 isnt it?

The parti yorkshire terrier club doesn't hold meetings? :confused:

Again a blanket statement about parti breeders.
It starts with the breeder, not you, nor I can control what a person wants to do.
Just what % of traditional color yorkies being bred are to the YTCA standard??????
One can look on puppyfind and see. My guess is Probably about 20%

I know how the YTCA members feel about it, it's written on the website, if you are waiting for them to write you a standard, I do not think you are really serious about what you are trying to accomplish. I also do think some parti breeders truly believe in what they are doing, but I don't see the point in getting the YTCA to accept their vision for the Yorkie.

WE are just a club, AKC has told us over and over that the YTCA is the parent club.
Our club does not represent all parti breeders.

If you are familiar with my posts, you will know that I'm always talking about breeding to standard, it's not just the parti trait. I agree, most pet owners are not breeding to standard, they don't even understand standard, and what it truly means.

Not sure what you mean by "Just what % of traditional color yorkies being bred are to the YTCA standard??????", I've read in other threads that people complain because a YTCA breeder has a black instead of a blue dog in her line. From my understanding the blue is a diluting gene, so the black must be bred back into the line to keep the blue from going to a light blue or silver, again the important thing to remember is the "goal" you are trying to produce dogs with the perfect shade of "blue". Think of it as breeding TO standard, not as breeding standard dogs.

Then what is your point????
Yes we know, a standard, is a standard , is a standard.......
We know how you feel , you have made it abundantly loud, like over and over again.
Oh lets see, we know how the YTCA feels too, its on their website.
How can the YTCA take us serious when they wont even acknowledge they are a yorkie, they have never once talked with anyone of us.
They will not respond to us in any way, shape or form.
They ignore any kind of contact we make to them.
Our club does have a standard and we can show NAKC, but the YTCA wants NO part of it.

See that is just it..... The standard is NOT just color. Just because it is the perfect shade of blue does not make it a standard yorkie.