CHIC stands for Canine Health Information Center. It's a health database.

Canine Health Information Center

The difference in your example with horses and with Yorkshires is that Yorkshires have never allowed white markings at all, except for those present at birth which turn tan/gold as the dog matures.

I'm not fully versed on the dilutes but that is apparently what is happening with the horses. If you take 2 minimally marked horses, which, according to your post is acceptable, and bred them, you could expect there to be a foal with more white than either parent at times. I could liken that to breeding two 7 pound Yorkies (acceptable size) together. You may not only get 7 pound offspring, but actually have pups bigger than either parent. You are essentially exaggerating an acceptable trait into something not acceptable. Then if you were to breed the bigger pups, resulting offspring could go even larger.

I believe that if one were to breed 2 Yorkies together that were barely dark enough to have the acceptable steel blue, some pups would be lighter than either parent, due to exaggerating the dilution factor, and fall into the unacceptable category. Now it's not so cut and dry, with each breeding having its own particulars, but the point is to be selective enough to not exaggerate any fault in future generations.

You have probably heard, as well as I, that some breeders have in the past used red leg Yorkies to preserve the color. Coat color is apparently not some static feature that can be just duplicated generation after generation. My feeling is that, if you breed a fault to a fault, you not only re-produce that fault, but in some instances will exaggerate it. That's where selective breeding comes into play to maintain and preserve a standard.

All this discussion of how a certain color came to be in an animal is a really a moot point, however. The Yorkshire terrier has always been a blue and tan dog, AKC registration notwithstanding. Some of the old breeders may have been illiterate, but they sure knew what they were doing with the Yorkshire. Their knowledge may have come through trial and error, but they got it right in drawing up the first standard. It has been tweaked since then, but has never allowed for any white on a mature Yorkie. Your example with the horses shows to me why they were right.

Tegamom1 also posted a pic of her CJ, freshly taken out of his wraps.

Sorry you feel that way but luckily the AMHA didn't. If the AMHA followed the standard word for word, this breed would probably be extinct now. Not many people over 5 feet tall want to ride a 14 hand pony, but through the blood of the different mares bred by Justin Morgan; some mares having more size, more refinement or more color to pass onto their offspring, the versatile morgan has something to attract every morgan lover. From cutting and roping through the Western Working bloodlines, to the more refined and higher stepping park and english pleasure horses. Color is the icing on the cake because some people want something that stands out from the crowd. The Pinto coloration will drawn in new buyers who may have always loved the look of the morgan but wanted the coloring seen in paint horse. It's a win/win situation.

Not being a horse person, I was only trying to point out how the increased white may appear, and relate that to Yorkshires, and selective breeding, in general. I assume that was why you used the horses in your earlier post.

I don't think the rationale you give in the last couple sentences in the above post should carry over to the Yorkshire Terrier. Not sure it should even apply to horses, but then, I'm no horse person.

I just received permission to post this. It tells how to get a CHIC number for a yorkshire terrier. I don't know if it'll reprint correctly but you can get the idea.

 The CHIC Checklist
There is NO pass or fail with CHIC. It's about completing the two screening tests, Patellar Luxation and CERF and releasing the results. Every dog will get a number.

Before taking your dog in for these exams be sure that it is either micro chipped (preferable) or tattooed.

OFA Patellar Luxation - minimum 1 year of age
Please note - this is a manual exam performed by a general practitioner and must be done GENTLY. Do not let the vet torque the dogs leg or handle the leg roughly. STOP the exam if you feel the Vet is hurting your dog.
NEVER ALLOW YOUR VET TO CONDUCT THIS EXAM WHILE THE DOG IS SEDATED OR UNDER ANESTHESIA!!!! The dog must be awake and standing for the exam.
1. Go to the OFA Web site. http://www.offa.org/pdf/plappbw.pdf. At this addy you'll find the form that you fill out for the Patellar Luxation exam. You can fill it out on your computer, print it out and take it with you to the vet. Your vet needs to fill out the exam portion and sign this form.
 2. Please note - in the middle of your form is a black box. It's titled Authorization to Release Abnormal Results. If there is any luxation you must initial that box to receive a CHIC number. Right above the black box is the line for the signature of owner or authorized representative. Be sure to sign there also.
 3. At the bottom of the form you'll find the list of fees. Send a check or you can provide a credit card number.
 4. The mailing address is at the top of the form.
You mail this form is to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals OFA. They will send the information to CHIC so there is nothing more you need to do.
CERF -Canine Eye Registration Foundation - no minimum age
 1. Make an appointment with an Ophthalmologist. This test CANNOT be performed by a general practitioner. A list of Ophthalmologists in each state can be found at CERF - ACVO Clinic List. Call vets and compare prices. Some will offer eye exams at excellent prices, especially if you bring in more than one dog. Check for CERF clinics at dog shows.
 2. Take your dog's AKC information with you. The form will be provided by the vet. Allow extra time to fill the forms out.
 3. The exam takes only a few minutes and causes no discomfort. Because the eyes are dilated you don't want to do this exam right before showing the dog.
 4. Fill out the required information on the back of the copy that the Dr. gives you, and mail it to CERF with the required fees.
 5. CERF will send the information to CHIC for you.
 6. One CERF exam is needed for a CHIC number.

Wraps are in 24/7 You can see Razzman if you go to my profile and the video posted there, swimming and retreiving in wraps. they do not interfere with his movement, as long as you wrap to clear movement through the joints; eg: above the knee and below the knee without wrapping across the knee.

As Mary said they are changed/inspected daily and dogs can be washed twice a week, dependent on the activity level of the dog.

I do remember one day, just washing, blowdrying, rewrapping Razzle, and my Hubby came home and decided to take the scamp for a walk, well we had had rain that day, they came home happily splattered with mud, had a grand ole time. I almost cried. Back to the bathtub we did go. He said but honey that is why you wrap him, so he can play and fetch and have fun. Well yes of course, but not in the MUD! Of course these were the early days, now hubby knows better:D

The point to the story being, that if AMHA strictly followed and enforced the standards as they were written originally written, the breed would have died out. Justin Morgan was a 14 hand, stocky built work horse. But by allowing the genes that were already in our horses (coming from of the various different mares who were bred to this one stallion) the morgan breed is now more than just a short, little dark horse with no white.

The breed standard has changed over the years - I don't believe color is even listed in the breed standard any longer but back in the 1990's the only colors listed in the standard was black, brown, bay and chestnut with the only white being in the form of sock, stocking, star, stripe, snip.

Radar went to the beach with us and swam in his wraps and OMG you should have seen the sand that came out of his wraps when we got home LOL...he's gone swimming in the swimming pool in wraps, he chases my yorkies through all the red oak leaves that is covering my yard UGH and drags them in the house through the doggie door is now sleeping at my feet on a woolie blanket, not satin, always does in the winter. He's lived in wraps since he's been 18 months old and it's like second nature to him. He's a normal healthy pet as well as a normal healthy show dog. I was told a long time ago I needed to keep him in an xpen and no carpet, no grass ect...to have a nice long flowing coat but as most have seen in his pictures his coat is long and flowing :)

Donna

Donna he has a beautiful coat. But thank god I don't live near a beach, the sand would dry me crazy!!

Mostly we go to fresh water Lakes, after all I live right on Lake Ontario. But when we went camping to Lake superior (prior Razz) there was a big beach before the water, and oh boy did Magic every accumulate sand in his hair. Every night I had to put him up on the picnic table and brush him all out before bedtime.

We are thinking of PEI next summer, and I'm current looking for a house that has an outside shower, so our day at the beach can end with all pups getting hosed off from the sand. I can't wait to see PEI, it is supposed to be beautiful. Then we will let most air dry (except Razz), and I use an undercoat called muddypaws, this protects their legs and underbellies so when they lay down in the grass or patio they are protected from burrs, sand bugs,etc. I'm just a little concerned for razz's coat I use Plush Puppy SPF for the big dogs, do you use that product for your Yorkies? I'm considering keeping him in his wrapping jacket otherwise. This should give good sun protection except for his top knot. What about if I use the plastic wrapper over the paper one for the top knot? What do you think?

Are you suggesting that without the addition of the Parti Coloring to the AKC standards, the Yorkie breed is going to "die out"?

I looked at the video, but it looks like he is wearing some type of suit under the life jacket? Are those the wraps? Also, is his head hair cut short? I'm still confused.

Razzle is one cute and talented doggie!

The Yorkshire Terrier is in no danger of dying out without changing the standard, so the Morgan horse analogy isn't very useful. Plus, I'm not sure why a horse that had been around for 200 years needed a standard change (rescinding the high white rule) in 1996 to keep it from dying out. Or are there other changes you are referring to?

I will say that you got me to looking around, though. Apparently, there is no separate breed club that sets the standard for the Morgans (such as the YTCA) and no overall registry (as in AKC). The Morgan horse has its own registry that sets its own standard, if I'm reading it right.

A couple of things I did notice. If you go to the AMHA site Morgan Ideal - AMHA, right at first you'll see 2 horses that are described as 'ideal'. Neither has the large areas of white. I did see some sites that has breeders advertising 'classic' Morgans, so there are those sticking with the old standard, whether the registry does or not.

I just use Coat Handlers shampoo, put him in oil and wraps. I don't use a wrapping jacket at all. Radar isn't out in the sun for very long...he suns some when it's just like in the 70's or low 80's but for the most part he's in and out the doggie door LOL...he goes out when he wants and comes in when he wants along with the others LOL...

He has his wrapping jacket on over the wraps, and then the life jacket on top of that. I learnt the hard way to put that wrapping jacket on when using the life jacket. The life jacket is all velcro ties, and the first time in the winter we went swimming, I simply put the life jacket on. When we finished the swim, I about cried because the life jacket stuck to his hair in all sorts of places, and I had to pull the hair away from the velcro.

On his topknot those white things are wraps. You can see some white wraps sticking out from underneath the silk wrapping jacket. Also my photo album shows him in wraps

Yes I get that but when we go on vacation we are outdoors almost 12 or more hours per day.

Now hopefully we will find a house to rent, and not do the camping, but we like to hike for about 5hrs per day, and then we relax by the water, where we all swim, and do some training n stuff, then bbq outdoors, and then finally bedtime when the sun goes down.

The pups just adore that lifestyle, everyone is exhausted by the time we get home from the hikes, then we all perk up in the water, and they the dogs go crazy running in and out, and fetching n retreiving. Last summer I would use a biodegrable shampoo for Razz and he would get rinsed off in the lake water, then blowdried on the picnic table. He would almost fall asleep as I was blowdrying and rewrapping him. Of course a 15 minute nap and the pups are ready to go again. Unfortunatley we old timers are not. We usually end the day after dinner with a short walk, then pups are put to bed, and we end up reading/cough umm napping until we hit the hay.

I'd love to be able to do this everyday. but unless I win the lottery that is not going to happen anytime soon.

All I know is they came from the Clydesdale Terrier being mixed with the Waterside Terrier hundreds of years ago and voila Yorkies.

Does it truly matter where they came from or how they got here.
Do we love them all the same, are they as cute as buttons and as sweet as pie.
I love my Teegy

Where a breed comes from matters because it determines it's future.

I'm sorry if you can't see the point I was making regarding how recessive genes and genes in general, can hide for years and then show up. This seems to be a big question in many of the naysayers minds here, "How could the parti gene just show up after so many years?" It just does!!! I tried to give an example of how it did in the Morgan breed after 50 years of trying to control the pinto genes either by enacting the 30+ year high white rule and requiring 25 years of parental verification through blood typing and DNA.

That is correct, the morgan horse has it's own registry through the American Morgan Horse Assoc., I believe most horse breed registries are run by their breed club.

The club is also open to all who want to become a member, unlike many of the dog breed clubs. All of the equine breed registries/associations I've belonged to were open to anyone who wanted to join.

Yes, the photos of the Ideal Morgan stallion and mare are the same illustrations that have been around for years as an example of the Morgan. The Classic Morgan Admirers club tries to adhere to that old type morgan look and classic morgan foundation bloodlines.

The Western Working Morgan club focuses in on the Morgan bloodlines that were used for ranch work in the early years of the breed.

The Rainbow Morgan Club ... well, I guess you can figure that was the club that I was involved in, promotes and educates people about colorful morgans.

An "A" rated Morgan show, has classes for basically every riding division, sport horse, hunter, western, park, english pleasure, driving, in hand (conformation) and they also have a "Justin Morgan" class.

I'm having trouble reconciling these two posts. I'm trying to understand how you can strive for color placement in a parti when the majority of the parti yorkies have a gene that is responsible for a random and unpredictable spotting pattern that makes placement of of color impossible.:confused:

Parti Breeders should have their dogs fixed, place the pups remaining in great homes, and strive to breed to the Standard. Why are we watering down the breed? Soon, Parti;s will start popping up more and more.....what a shame.

There already are more and more partis. Theyf are not goping to go away. This will have absolutley NO effect on the traditional yorkies. There are plenty of breeders that breed ONLY the traditionals.

Many other breeds allow for color variances and it has not had any adverse effect on those breeds.

There have always been and there always will be breeders who breed outside the box. If not there would only be one breed of dog.

On a side note
This thread is not about anyones personal opinions, its purpose is to post and discuss referrences on the subject.

As far as color goes,I do not speak for anyone else, but I breed for a colored head, I personally do not care for the all white face or half white face. I want evenly marked dogs. If I have one born all white face, those dogs are not bred again and the pup is petted out. The parents may/ or may not be bred to another dog and if it happens again they are spayed or neutered. I wait on my pups to see the results of the breeding before I breed the parents again.

When I started on YT a few years back, Woogie Man pointed out that piebald animals are often deaf/blind if born with all white heads (I think that was it). Is this true in partis?

Breezeaway, what is your theory about the spotting if you don't think it's random? Are you saying partis aren't piebald, or that piebald coloring isn't random?

I'm not a breeder so maybe I am not understanding completely. I'm trying to understand this debate.

So if you are wanting evenly colored/marked dogs, are the genes of your dogs different than the genes of Pine Haven's dogs that are spotty and unpredictable which she states are impossible to standardize?

I'm not a breeder, again, but it seems to me that most of the time a blue and gold is bred to a blue and gold you get a blue and gold. The head is gold and the saddle is blue. Your blue might be off or your gold washed out too light or too red but generally speaking the head is gold and the saddle is blue. Those seem like genes that are predictable in terms of placement on the dog whereas the parti colors are not, as Pinehaven said, and I'm just wondering how you can make the colors even when the gene you are working with by its very definition is spotty/unpredictable/random.

Random means random and that is the opposite of predictable which is why I am confused.

Breeding spotted partis, usually one piebald breed to another piebald will produce piebald. It is very hard to say though how heavy of markings you will get in a breeding as of yet. I have seen very heavily marked piebalds that have been bred together and have produced piebalds will very little spotting at all. Since each and every piebald has a unique pattern and no two are alike its very hard to guess at how the genes will come together.
There is a specific color pattern which is a little heavier than your normal piebald color of 50% white(some call Irish spotting) They are heavier on the dark color than the white.
I have not heard of any of the white faces yorkies being deaf or blind, because they do have some color on the ears or a small mark on the head somewhere.

Deafness associated with the piebald gene was discussed in a parti thread a long time ago. It occurs most often with the extreme piebald effect or with white heads. There is no specific info on the parti Yorkshire, but the effect is well documented in other breeds. A pup may be born or become deaf in either one or both ears. A BAER test is used to determine deafness, especially in dogs with unilateral deafness. Either the piebald or double merle gene can cause this.

I suppose it should be mentioned in this thread since all things parti are being discussed. I don't think it's inherent in parti Yorkshires, but the risk is certainly there.

I don't have all my links from before, but here are a few that discuss the piebald and double merle gene in other breeds.

health issues

WHITES: IS IT WORTH THE RISKS

Health Issues Boston Terrier Dogs AKC Shows Natural Rearing

If the Parti yorkie were to be accepted into AKC conformation shows, then a standard would have to be written for it. That would be determined by the parent club. It "could" say for instance, body no more than 70% white. Solid white faces or heads or mismarked face shall be penalized.

I agree the risk is there, that is why I want colored heads. I believe they should have a symmetrical colored head.

I guess I'm still confused as to how you could avoid a fully white head if the piebald pattern is totally random. Wouldn't it just be a coin toss on every breeding?