debarking or bark "softening" - Page 9 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

mommyofsophie · 07-27-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CouversMom

I personally would move before debarking my dog. I know this is not always possible, but you need to find a way. You should be able to find a rental house for cheap to keep your dog.

Here is a video I found on YouTube... very interesting to watch.

YouTube - Faces of Devocalization

Wow. Propaganda? Not a very well-reasoned consideration of the topic. Also, the dog they showed with all the stitches on its throat had clearly been butchered-- poor baby!! :-( Debarking can be done by going in through the open mouth and sort of hole-punching one of the vocal cords with a laser to minimize any bleeding or scarring. From looking at the scars on that poor dog in the video, it doesn't look like he underwent the same procedure. Also the dog in the beginning was debarked for convenience and then neglected outdoors by backyard breeders-- this is not Sophie's life.

yorkielady06 · 07-27-2010, 04:03 PM

Was the suggestion of a trainer ever put out there? I am thinking a professional in behavior might be a great idea.

bjh · 07-27-2010, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

what is the reasoning for show people to debark their pups? do you know? thanks.

I suppose it is just for noise control. They have a lot of dogs so I assume it is just so they don't have to listening to the deafening barking all day.

I agree with Mary, I don't pass judgment. Debarking is something I would never do unless it was absolutely necessary.

Mardelin · 07-27-2010, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjh

I suppose it is just for noise control. They have a lot of dogs so I assume it is just so they don't have to listening to the deafening barking all day.

I agree with Mary, I don't pass judgment. Debarking is something I would never do unless it was absolutely necessary.

Actually, one or two chronic barkers can have influence over a
group/kennel of dogs. The rest of the group may not be barkers but, one or two can set them off and causing the BIG NOISE......

2Morkies · 07-27-2010, 04:54 PM

Could you move? There might be someone who need's a roomate in a house...maybe a roomate with dogs. If you could find a house to rent then the barking might be tolerated. Also, are there any doggy day cares around that you could take your baby to?
You say that she'll stop if you say "be nice." I think there are devices that are noise/bark triggered...You could find one and whenever she barks she would hear your voice say "be nice" Hope you find something to help.

MadDeDo · 07-27-2010, 05:12 PM

I think there have been some extremely thoughtful and informative responses on this thread, and with the exception of only a few posts everyone has stayed very respectful. That is nice to see here for a change...

To the OP, I agree with what many others have said. You are not the typical "convenience" case which I would not support or condone, in this case it is for HER, not for you. A few posts up someone said they didn't understand why the only options at this point were rehome or debark, but it seems that you truly HAVE exhausted next to all other possibilities in this case. It was already mentioned about tail docking...but really, what is the difference? Done by a licensed professional with a laser and done properly there is no pain involved for her, and it will allow her to stay in her home. I can't see how putting her with a stranger and having her stress over that is in ANY way better than her undergoing a painless procedure that she will never remember or understand that there is any difference in the sounds she makes.

As for the comparisons to dogs and children, there is none. They are a different species entirely and have a completely different brain capacity and understanding. Although we do LOVE them like they are our children, they are still animals and in no way the same. A baby would not be left alone, and a baby cries to tell you something is wrong or needed. You wouldn't leave a baby alone in an apartment, and you wouldn't leave a baby to scream because their cries are to signal something. However, leaving a dog by his/herself is another ballgame entirely. Sure, dogs do bark to signal things and tell you what they want and/or need, but they also bark just to do it. A dog can be left alone for several hours with everything that they need: bed, toys, food/water, potty pads, etc. and they will be perfectly fine when you get back home. Not even in the same CATEGORY as a child.

I think that whatever you decide to do will not be a decision taken lightly. I think you have been nothing but responsible and open, and you clearly have Sophie's best interest at heart.

In my situation, living in a house that is not in a subdivision, if I had mine debarked it would be selfish on my behalf. However, that's apples and oranges, as everyone's living situation is different, and you have to consider what is best and what is affordable, while still being able to keep your sanity and keep your baby. I have a couple Biewer girls that are debarked, I did not do it, but they came to me that way already. It does not impair them in any way. When my others bark they join right in, but it is just "muffled" or softer. They have no clue that they are different, nor do they care. They have no scarring or any indication of any trauma. They just make a little less noise. Otherwise they are normal, healthy, and very happy go lucky dogs.

liz n tika · 07-27-2010, 05:41 PM

I personally think giving your dog away would be much more devistating to her than a surgery. Maybe you could find her another window for her to sit in tho.......

That's a tough one... just keep researching the surgery.

lisaly · 07-27-2010, 05:49 PM

It is very obvious that Sophie’s Mom is exploring all of here options, and she is trying to make the best decision for Sophie. Sometimes it’s not always so black and white. My husband and I were very upset that Gracie had been debarked, but it is because we tried to protect her from anything that could have harmed her. We were so grateful to have her in our lives, and she was so happy to be with us. I definitely could tell a difference in Gracie from my other two. We absolutely adored our other two girls, and they were special, loving little girls. Ashley was almost 1.5 years and Kiwi was almost 1 when we got Gracie. We had them from the time they were young. Gracie had been with the breeder until she was 6.5 months and had been kept to breed. Since she was a tiny and never grew the way the breeder hoped she would, the breeder gave her to us. Although the breeder loved Gracie a great deal (even though she chose to debark her), Gracie definitely was grateful for everything we did for her. She was old enough to know that her new home was special, and she was definitely one of the most loving and happy dogs I’ve ever known. Gracie’s bark may not have been very loud, but she definitely had a voice. She managed to get everything she ever wanted. If I wasn’t responding fast enough to her when she barked, she hopped into my lap or stood on my head when I was sleeping. As opposed as I am generally to debarking, I can’t say that Gracie was harmed by it. We knew, and it upset us greatly, but I don’t think Gracie knew the difference. She still barked incessantly and was a very well-adjusted little girl. I hated the idea of Gracie being put under anesthesia for it, but we opted to put her under twice a year to have her teeth cleaned because it was necessary for her. I know that’s not quite the same thing because that protected her health, but it still was a concern. I haven’t watched the videos because it would be too upsetting for me to see, but I doubt they represent what would be done by someone careful and trained to do surgery on a small Yorkie. I think if Sophie’s Mom thoroughly checks out the surgeon and her veterinarian is not feeling it will harm Sophie, she can make a decision that she feels will be in Sophie’s best interest. If she weren’t trying to do just that, I don’t think she would have asked a question to this forum about something so controversial. While it upsets me when I hear about dogs being debarked, I don’t think Sophie’s Mom would be considering this if she didn’t think it was the best option for Sophie at this point. It certainly seems that she is doing everything she can to protect her and seems to be doing the best she or anyone else can do for Sophie. Whatever she decides, I believe she will do whatever is best for Sophie because she loves her so much.

mommyofsophie · 07-27-2010, 06:01 PM

What a helpful discussion this has been! Thank you for all of the suggestions! I definitely have some new things to try with Sophie now.

joeyandtanksmom · 07-27-2010, 06:04 PM

Should we cut a person's vocal cords simply because they are loud or talk too much? I disagree very much with the surgery...I don't think it's humane, and it's putting the dog under anesthesia when it isn't necessary for the dog's life. I would never have it done, regardless of how much I had a dog bark. My Joey is a barker, if something scares or angers him, he will bark at it. I typically have to tell him two or three times to get him to be quiet, but he eventually does. He also has very severe separation anxiety, so I'm sure while my husband and I are at work he barks also. We do live in a house now, but before we bought it, we lived in a townhome with him, so we know how apartment life with a barker is. We still wouldn't ever have him debarked.

mommyofsophie · 07-27-2010, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyandtanksmom

Should we cut a person's vocal cords simply because they are loud or talk too much? I disagree very much with the surgery...I don't think it's humane, and it's putting the dog under anesthesia when it isn't necessary for the dog's life. I would never have it done, regardless of how much I had a dog bark. My Joey is a barker, if something scares or angers him, he will bark at it. I typically have to tell him two or three times to get him to be quiet, but he eventually does. He also has very severe separation anxiety, so I'm sure while my husband and I are at work he barks also. We do live in a house now, but before we bought it, we lived in a townhome with him, so we know how apartment life with a barker is. We still wouldn't ever have him debarked.

Thank you for sharing your honest perspective. I'm sure living in a house with Joey makes his barking much less of a problem for everyone, but I hope his separation anxiety eases over time. Maybe it's the move?

Brooklynn · 07-27-2010, 06:21 PM

I have to agree with Mary...never say never. One would have to walk in the other person's shoes to be able to make any kind of judgement.
I really think Sophie's mom is remarkable!! She's still exploring all her options and she needs to be commended! I applaud her!

Donna

P.S. I'm also amazed that this thread has remained very educational and being discussed in a very adult manner

Kuddos to all!

fifeandshaffer · 07-27-2010, 06:21 PM

Barking Study

i know you said the citronella didnt work, and i think its best to have your girl with you than rehome, who is to say that the new home will tollerate the barking? I also want to suggest what I did with my dog cooper who is a rescue, I have only had a few weeks he doesnt make a peep when im home but when i go out he is crazy barker, I bought the cd it helps,I bought the pheramone collar and plug it not sure it helps but I like the smell, I leave a tshirt I slpt in the night before where he likes to play, I have bought citronella collars, first were way to big the one i have on order is smaller will update when i get it, but I call my house phone from my cell phone put it on speaker and listen when he barks i say no bark, he listens most of the time, i had a trainer say is hard to solve if they dont do it when you are home, and that is my problem, my neighbors dont complain but i am not a fan of barking, my other yorkie only barks if someone comes to the door or a reason to bark. I thought you might find the study interesting. Not that I want to start a whole new topic but did you ask your vet for some ace or valium just to take he edge off? I think thats my next option or some benadryl. I work at home so im not out for long periods of tme but I would rather he didnt bark and go crazy when I leave.

bjh · 07-27-2010, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Actually, one or two chronic barkers can have influence over a
group/kennel of dogs. The rest of the group may not be barkers but, one or two can set them off and causing the BIG NOISE......

That is so true, I have a couple of barkers here that will set off my whole bunch. Thank goodness we are way out in the country so I don't have to worry about disturbing the neighbors.

lisaly · 07-27-2010, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fifeandshaffer

Not that I want to start a whole new topic but did you ask your vet for some ace or valium just to take he edge off? I think thats my next option or some benadryl. I work at home so im not out for long periods of tme but I would rather he didnt bark and go crazy when I leave.

I don't know if you've ever given Cooper Acepromazine, but when I gave Gracie Ace or valium when she was afraid of bad thunderstorms, it was more like giving her speed (something she never had). She became completely fearless and a complete terror. She was cute like that, but I don't think it was good for her. I decided not to give Ashley or Kiwi sedatives during a thunderstorm either. Even though they were very afraid, I started to think they were more afraid when they were medicated. They just didn't understand why they were feeling different.

07-27-2010, 04:54 PM	#125
2Morkies YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: USA Posts: 798	Could you move? There might be someone who need's a roomate in a house...maybe a roomate with dogs. If you could find a house to rent then the barking might be tolerated. Also, are there any doggy day cares around that you could take your baby to? You say that she'll stop if you say "be nice." I think there are devices that are noise/bark triggered...You could find one and whenever she barks she would hear your voice say "be nice" Hope you find something to help. __________________ MuffinBoomer

07-27-2010, 05:12 PM	#126
MadDeDo Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Clemmons, NC Posts: 633	I think there have been some extremely thoughtful and informative responses on this thread, and with the exception of only a few posts everyone has stayed very respectful. That is nice to see here for a change... To the OP, I agree with what many others have said. You are not the typical "convenience" case which I would not support or condone, in this case it is for HER, not for you. A few posts up someone said they didn't understand why the only options at this point were rehome or debark, but it seems that you truly HAVE exhausted next to all other possibilities in this case. It was already mentioned about tail docking...but really, what is the difference? Done by a licensed professional with a laser and done properly there is no pain involved for her, and it will allow her to stay in her home. I can't see how putting her with a stranger and having her stress over that is in ANY way better than her undergoing a painless procedure that she will never remember or understand that there is any difference in the sounds she makes. As for the comparisons to dogs and children, there is none. They are a different species entirely and have a completely different brain capacity and understanding. Although we do LOVE them like they are our children, they are still animals and in no way the same. A baby would not be left alone, and a baby cries to tell you something is wrong or needed. You wouldn't leave a baby alone in an apartment, and you wouldn't leave a baby to scream because their cries are to signal something. However, leaving a dog by his/herself is another ballgame entirely. Sure, dogs do bark to signal things and tell you what they want and/or need, but they also bark just to do it. A dog can be left alone for several hours with everything that they need: bed, toys, food/water, potty pads, etc. and they will be perfectly fine when you get back home. Not even in the same CATEGORY as a child. I think that whatever you decide to do will not be a decision taken lightly. I think you have been nothing but responsible and open, and you clearly have Sophie's best interest at heart. In my situation, living in a house that is not in a subdivision, if I had mine debarked it would be selfish on my behalf. However, that's apples and oranges, as everyone's living situation is different, and you have to consider what is best and what is affordable, while still being able to keep your sanity and keep your baby. I have a couple Biewer girls that are debarked, I did not do it, but they came to me that way already. It does not impair them in any way. When my others bark they join right in, but it is just "muffled" or softer. They have no clue that they are different, nor do they care. They have no scarring or any indication of any trauma. They just make a little less noise. Otherwise they are normal, healthy, and very happy go lucky dogs. __________________ The s of mommy's life: DeDe and Maddie Last edited by MadDeDo; 07-27-2010 at 05:14 PM.

07-27-2010, 06:04 PM	#130
joeyandtanksmom YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Kuna,ID,USA Posts: 557	Should we cut a person's vocal cords simply because they are loud or talk too much? I disagree very much with the surgery...I don't think it's humane, and it's putting the dog under anesthesia when it isn't necessary for the dog's life. I would never have it done, regardless of how much I had a dog bark. My Joey is a barker, if something scares or angers him, he will bark at it. I typically have to tell him two or three times to get him to be quiet, but he eventually does. He also has very severe separation anxiety, so I'm sure while my husband and I are at work he barks also. We do live in a house now, but before we bought it, we lived in a townhome with him, so we know how apartment life with a barker is. We still wouldn't ever have him debarked. __________________ Sandy: Joey & Tank's Mom Jackson Ryan

07-27-2010, 06:21 PM	#132
Brooklynn Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 4,280	I have to agree with Mary...never say never. One would have to walk in the other person's shoes to be able to make any kind of judgement. I really think Sophie's mom is remarkable!! She's still exploring all her options and she needs to be commended! I applaud her! Donna P.S. I'm also amazed that this thread has remained very educational and being discussed in a very adult manner Kuddos to all! __________________ Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers www.brooklynnyorkies.com

07-27-2010, 04:03 PM	#122
yorkielady06 YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Up North Posts: 808	Was the suggestion of a trainer ever put out there? I am thinking a professional in behavior might be a great idea.

07-27-2010, 05:41 PM	#127
liz n tika YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ozark, ar, us Posts: 3	I personally think giving your dog away would be much more devistating to her than a surgery. Maybe you could find her another window for her to sit in tho....... That's a tough one... just keep researching the surgery.

07-27-2010, 05:49 PM	#128
lisaly Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 5,892	It is very obvious that Sophie’s Mom is exploring all of here options, and she is trying to make the best decision for Sophie. Sometimes it’s not always so black and white. My husband and I were very upset that Gracie had been debarked, but it is because we tried to protect her from anything that could have harmed her. We were so grateful to have her in our lives, and she was so happy to be with us. I definitely could tell a difference in Gracie from my other two. We absolutely adored our other two girls, and they were special, loving little girls. Ashley was almost 1.5 years and Kiwi was almost 1 when we got Gracie. We had them from the time they were young. Gracie had been with the breeder until she was 6.5 months and had been kept to breed. Since she was a tiny and never grew the way the breeder hoped she would, the breeder gave her to us. Although the breeder loved Gracie a great deal (even though she chose to debark her), Gracie definitely was grateful for everything we did for her. She was old enough to know that her new home was special, and she was definitely one of the most loving and happy dogs I’ve ever known. Gracie’s bark may not have been very loud, but she definitely had a voice. She managed to get everything she ever wanted. If I wasn’t responding fast enough to her when she barked, she hopped into my lap or stood on my head when I was sleeping. As opposed as I am generally to debarking, I can’t say that Gracie was harmed by it. We knew, and it upset us greatly, but I don’t think Gracie knew the difference. She still barked incessantly and was a very well-adjusted little girl. I hated the idea of Gracie being put under anesthesia for it, but we opted to put her under twice a year to have her teeth cleaned because it was necessary for her. I know that’s not quite the same thing because that protected her health, but it still was a concern. I haven’t watched the videos because it would be too upsetting for me to see, but I doubt they represent what would be done by someone careful and trained to do surgery on a small Yorkie. I think if Sophie’s Mom thoroughly checks out the surgeon and her veterinarian is not feeling it will harm Sophie, she can make a decision that she feels will be in Sophie’s best interest. If she weren’t trying to do just that, I don’t think she would have asked a question to this forum about something so controversial. While it upsets me when I hear about dogs being debarked, I don’t think Sophie’s Mom would be considering this if she didn’t think it was the best option for Sophie at this point. It certainly seems that she is doing everything she can to protect her and seems to be doing the best she or anyone else can do for Sophie. Whatever she decides, I believe she will do whatever is best for Sophie because she loves her so much.

07-27-2010, 06:01 PM	#129
mommyofsophie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ann Arbor, MI, USA Posts: 248	What a helpful discussion this has been! Thank you for all of the suggestions! I definitely have some new things to try with Sophie now.

07-27-2010, 06:21 PM	#133
fifeandshaffer YT Addict Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: cherry hill, nj usa Posts: 306	Barking Study i know you said the citronella didnt work, and i think its best to have your girl with you than rehome, who is to say that the new home will tollerate the barking? I also want to suggest what I did with my dog cooper who is a rescue, I have only had a few weeks he doesnt make a peep when im home but when i go out he is crazy barker, I bought the cd it helps,I bought the pheramone collar and plug it not sure it helps but I like the smell, I leave a tshirt I slpt in the night before where he likes to play, I have bought citronella collars, first were way to big the one i have on order is smaller will update when i get it, but I call my house phone from my cell phone put it on speaker and listen when he barks i say no bark, he listens most of the time, i had a trainer say is hard to solve if they dont do it when you are home, and that is my problem, my neighbors dont complain but i am not a fan of barking, my other yorkie only barks if someone comes to the door or a reason to bark. I thought you might find the study interesting. Not that I want to start a whole new topic but did you ask your vet for some ace or valium just to take he edge off? I think thats my next option or some benadryl. I work at home so im not out for long periods of tme but I would rather he didnt bark and go crazy when I leave.