debarking or bark "softening"

[mommyofsophie]

Hello all, I know this is bound to be controversial, but I would really appreciate it if anyone who posts in response to this would actually read my entire post before simply writing something out of an impassioned feeling.

I heard about debarking or "bark softening" surgery in the past and was absolutely horrified that people would do that to their dogs. I was glad when I learned that my vet will not perform the surgery. I looked at it in a very black & white way. But here's the thing... life is not always black & white. There's a great deal of grey out there.

Sophie is 1 1/2 years old and loves to bark like no other dog I've had. (Previously, I've owned an Akita, an Afghan hound, and a shih-tzu.) I live in an apartment now and Sophie barks at every little noise and every person walking by, even though these are the same people she is happy to see and be petted by when we're out walking. She loooooves to bark, and I understand that barking is a very natural dog behavior. While the barking of many dogs is an indicator that there is an underlying problem, I think Sophie is genuinely happy and healthy.

In order to train her to stop barking, I've used clicker training and POSITIVE reinforcement to teach her that "Be nice" means she needs to stop barking. She responds well to this cue and stops barking quickly. No drama, no yelling at her, nothing negative: I say "Be nice," and she stops barking. It's amazing what taking the time to bond with and train your dog can do!

However... when I'm not home to give the cue, she is terrorizing my apt. neighbors with her barking. They have complained; they have called the apt. office; they have called the police. Yesterday I came home to find a police car in front of my building and a hefty ticket waiting for me. (Mind you, the neighbor who phoned the police has a miniature poodle that barks sometimes, too!) I am struggling with what to do here. I love Sophie very much and she really IS a well-behaved dog!

I know it's not separation anxiety because when I'm filling my water bottle to leave for work, Sophie will climb into her basket in the kitchen before I even put the gate up. She doesn't bark or whine as I finish getting my things together and head out the door. When I come home, she is quiet; in fact, I often wake her up when I walk into the kitchen. She is happy to see me and we take a walk right away. I understand that some dogs appear fine but fall apart when mommy/daddy leave, so I left a digital audio recorder (that I use for my work research) running on multiple days. It recorded for SIX HOURS each day and I then cued through it for barking. Sophie barked repeatedly and loudly, but it was her "I'm being a watch dog" bark, not her "Please, play with me" or "I'm hurt" bark. (Yes, I know the difference in her barks because I'm her mommy, lol.) Yesterday the lawn maintenance guys were in the apt. complex and I'm sure she went nuts every time a mower or blower went by because I wasn't there to say "Be nice," hence the neighbor's call to the police.

So what have I tried? More/longer walks to tire her out before I leave the house for work... more games of catch to tire her out... leaving the radio/TV on when I'm gone... having a dog walker come over on the days that I teach morning and evening classes... citronella collar... high frequency gadget that supposedly emitted a sound when she barked... change food in case it was related to an allergy, etc. Now I'm trying gating her in the kitchen so that she can't see out any windows to be stimulated to bark. I feel badly though because she's potty-pad trained and could have the run of the house all day instead of being in a windowless apt. kitchen. But, if this will stop the barking, then I need to try it. It has reached the point where my apt. manager is talking about me possibly having to get rid of Sophie. I just finished my Ph.D. a few months ago and work as a college professor, so I don't have the money to buy a house. Sophie and I will be living in an apt. for many more years.

And here's where it gets grey... I wonder if it would actually be more humane to have Sophie's bark softened so that she can still bark when I'm gone (again, it's not separation anxiety), but it won't have the neighbors phoning the police. She could then have free range of the house, including her favorite of lying in front of the sliding glass patio door to watch the birds at the feeder, instead of being kept in a windowless apartment kitchen. Reading on-line, I see that many sheltie owners have the procedure performed on their pets. I understand that any surgery has its associated risks and this is not something I am considering lightly. This is not about making her less annoying for me (she's not annoying to me!) or quieting her for a new baby or for some other convenience. I am considering this so that I do not have to give her away. She is a happy dog who loves her mommy and gets showered with love and attention. I think it would be as traumatic for her to be rehomed as it would be for me.

So after all that... I would love to hear the thoughts of other YorkieTalk members. But, PLEASE, don't just post that I'm a horrible person for even considering this. If that's your response, then you clearly haven't carefully read what I've written. Thank you for any thoughtful comments.

[BellaDonna]

I have seen dogs that had that done and I think it's a horrible thing to do. That would be like me taking your right to speech. I wouldn't do that to an animal. If it was a question of that dog being given away to a home where the barking is tolerated I would give the dog away, but I wouldn't take the voice away.

[chachi]

I think it is cruel but I have heard of people having it done that either had to do it or rehome the dog

[Brooklynn]

I know alot of people are against it as I am as well BUT I don't see anything wrong in doing it as you seem to have a good understanding with your yorkie and love your yorkie and I see you've done your research. If I lived in an apartment and that was my problem I would consider it to keep my dog as it's not as bad as some think. I know several show/breeder friends that have had it done for the very same reasons you are explaining. Just because I don't do it and I do live in a house and it's not a problem for me but if the rolls were reversed I would for sure consider it to keep my dog. I know when my friends do it it's only one vocal cord not both and it's done when they go in for a teeth cleaning so that means they are already sedated and can't feel it. While I have several yorkies at home none are debarked and I thankfully have neighbors that don't call or complain when mine get to barking.
I hope this helps in some way.
I might get on the chopping block as well LOL...but rehoming wouldn't be an option for me either in this case.

Donna

[megansmomma]

Just wondering why your vet will not debark? What are his thoughts and reasoning behind not doing the surgery on a dog?

If I trusted my vet.............

[fifeandshaffer]

i dont know much about it however you seem like a smart person and if that is the best option so you can keep her, that might be best, me personally feel like you have done everything you can, and you love your dog and she loves you, the surgery seems to me a better option than the trauma to the both of you is she has to be rehomed, but thats just my opinion and im sure most people wont agree with me. There is a cd at barnes and noble that relaxes dogs i got it 4 my dog you may want to try that as a last last resort.

[Roccosmommy]

I agree that you seem like a very intelligent person and knowledgable owner that is really torn over this decision. I wouldn't want to be in your position, but may consider the surgery if the only alternative was to rehome my baby. Good luck to you.

[jencar98]

Are there not rental houses available to you? Around here often times you can rent a house for close to the same amount as an apartment.

If moving is not an option, I agree with what Donna posted to you. Normally I would be firmly against debarking, especially as a convenience for the pet owner. But, it does sound like short of moving, you've done everything you can.

I've known of only one other case where I thought debarking was kind of okay. This was an elderly lady with an older poodle, she had since the dog was a pup. The lady was going into a nursing home that would allow her dog but only if the dog never barked. It would have been devastating to separate the owner and dog at that point.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by jencar98

Are there not rental houses available to you? Around here often times you can rent a house for close to the same amount as an apartment.

If moving is not an option, I agree with what Donna posted to you. Normally I would be firmly against debarking, especially as a convenience for the pet owner. But, it does sound like short of moving, you've done everything you can.

I've known of only one other case where I thought debarking was kind of okay. This was an elderly lady with an older poodle, she had since the dog was a pup. The lady was going into a nursing home that would allow her dog but only if the dog never barked. It would have been devastating to separate the owner and dog at that point.

I'm in agreement it should NEVER be for the convenience of a pet owner but in this case I would be for it because rehoming in this case wouldn't be an option for me. I feel you've done everything possible to control the barking and if you have to debark I see nothing wrong with it as long as it's not for convenience.
Donna

[Maximo]

I have the calming music too: "Through a Dog's Ear" CD and the driving edition. My boys love these albums along with a couple of others.

Regarding debarking, another important consideration is health. I don't know if this is true or just a scare tactic, but I have read that debarking can cause serious throat problems later in life. Sorry I don't recall the specifics, but MommyofSophie, please research this before making a decision.

I can imagine your frustration because you are between a rock and a hard place. Sorry I don't have any more advice to help you solve this problem.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by BellaDonna

I have seen dogs that had that done and I think it's a horrible thing to do. That would be like me taking your right to speech. I wouldn't do that to an animal. If it was a question of that dog being given away to a home where the barking is tolerated I would give the dog away, but I wouldn't take the voice away.

What about people that are deaf? Their speech isn't taken away they use sign language and dogs communicate in other forms other than barking. I see this woman as doing everything she can to train her yorkie and it's not working. She seems to love her yorkie and why would she give it away? If it were for her convenience and not this type of scenerio I would agree with you. Please don't take this wrong as it's not meant to be that way. What about dogs that become blind? Their other senses become stronger. What about dogs that become deaf? Same thing their other senses are enhightened and become stronger. Same as people in those same scenerios.
She loves her dog and doesn't want to give the yorkie away and it wouldn't be an option for me either.

Just another way of looking at it

Donna

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Maximo

I have the calming music too: "Through a Dog's Ear" CD and the driving edition. My boys love these albums along with a couple of others.

Regarding debarking, another important consideration is health. I don't know if this is true or just a scare tactic, but I have read that debarking can cause serious throat problems later in life. Sorry I don't recall the specifics, but MommyofSophie, please research this before making a decision.

I can imagine your frustration because you are between a rock and a hard place. Sorry I don't have any more advice to help you solve this problem.

As I stated before, I know several show/breeders that have had to have this done and no throat issues and lived to be a ripe old age.

[BanditSocks2]

I know you said you put her in the kitchen to remove her from any windows and stuff, but what about a crate? We keep a blanket over our dogs crates except the crate and the only time they bark is when we walk in the door.

[yorkielady06]

Ok I have a question. Have you tried a recording that tells her to be nice like every 30 mins or so?

Is there a device that is bark activated that you could record be nice on?

I do not believe in debarking and most vets do not do it because it is considered in humane. Nor do I believe in the shock collars. Not real happy about he citronella ones either but it is the lesser of the 3 evils. Have you tried the citronella collar? if that did not work I would tend to go for the shock one? Last resort would be the debarking for me.

How about trying the recording, look for a voice activated playing device, then move to the collars....IMHO

[WV~Yorkies]

It just softens the bark it doesn't take it away, right?

I would have it done before I crated a dog all day or had to rehome. I really don't know much about it but seems like you are doing your research.