debarking or bark "softening"

[MaddiesMommie]

Originally Posted by Mitzis Mom

Another 'outside-the-box' thought... I take it that you know the spiteful neighbor. Have you ever talked to him/her about your dilemma? In my experience sometimes it helps to just explain. Also... since Sophie barks when you are not home and the neighbor is bothered he/she must be home during those hours. Maybe you could ask him/her if they would like to take care of Sophie as long as you are gone? Sometimes people just need to be needed to change their minds about a nuisance...

Sorry, but I think that would be a terrible idea. She is already aggitated by her barking, God knows what she might do.

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by mommyofsophie

If an animal's quality of life changes due to the consequences of excessive barking, the animal will likely suffer psychological effects. Some things we do for our pet's psychological benefits as well. Spaying/neutering are largely done to prevent reproduction. Decreases in risks of breast cancer in spayed small breeds is statistically negligible. You can find these data in vet medical journals. I researched this and my vet confirmed this with me. Yes, large breeds, such as German shepherds have a greatly reduced risk of breast cancer after a spay, but for Yorkies and other small breeds, the risk reduction is quite minimal. We have our little dogs spayed to prevent reproduction; it is not necessarily for their medical benefit. How many Yorkies have docked tails? Most of the photos on this site show docked Yorkies, yet there is no benefit in docking. Some people think it is inhumane and would like it to be illegal. I'll be candid, I think docking is much less necessary than debarking could ever be. (Yes, Sophie's tail is docked. She was a gift and was docked as a puppy.)

Again, I said that spaying and neutering have medical benefits where as debarking doesn't. The primary of which is stopping the ability to reproduce and thus eliminates the health risks associated with breeding. It also reduces the incidence of mammary tumors in some breeds and completely eliminates the risk of pyometria, uterine cancers and testicular cancers.

For that reason, I would never ever put spaying/neutering in the same category as debarking.

And for the record, I agree with you on tail docking. Mine came that way from the rescues, but it's nothing I would ever put an animal through.

[MaddiesMommie]

Originally Posted by Maximo

I'm so sorry for you. {{{{HUGS}}}}

The stories about the Shelties are so sad and cruel. You have every right to be concerned about your neighbors. One of my neighbors suggested with all seriousness that I rubber band my dogs' mouths shut while I walk them. If I were foolish enough to do such a thing, it would cause their deaths because they wouldn't be able to pant.

Can you send your neighbors a cordial note indicating that you are working as fast as you can to find a solution?

It is sickening to hear what some people think is appropriate.

I really like the idea of sending the neighbor a note.

[mommyofsophie]

Originally Posted by Teegy

My two cents worth hear, these dogs are our babies. We remove their balls and reproductive organs because we're told it's the right thing to do. I did it but I don't like it. This on the other hand, I have my opinion and that is, it's selfish it's cruel and would you do it to your child if it cried all day.
It could be an attention thing, I guess a bark collar doesn't work.
I heard that barking back at them everytime they do it appears to work at reducing it.
My dog isn't a barker, but I would rather give him to a loving home where he can she be his wee barky self because I love him to pieces, than do a surgery to shut him up, again this is my view. And if your vet won't do it, where are you going to get it done?

I agree completely that our dogs are our babies. Thanks for sharing your perspective with me. I would not alter a human child's vocal cords for crying because a crying baby is telling me that something is wrong, whereas Sophie just loves loves loves to bark. She is not sick, hurt, anxious, etc. Some dogs simply love to bark.

Debarking does not render a dog mute; the procedure on one vocal cord reduces the volume and pitch of the bark. The dog can still bark, as well as communicate with all of its body language-- which is the primary mode of communication in dogs. Again, the dog can still bark.

As I've stated previously in this post, I have tried numerous things (including a citronella collar). Also, I've stated that when I tell Sophie to "be nice," she quiets immediately. The problem is that when I'm not there to tell her this, she barks away.

My vet can't do it because she practices out of VCA Woodland, which is a chain that has a policy on the procedure. I have had multiple consultations with my vet about the barking and what to try. My vet has recommended a colleague who has a private practice and could therefore perform the procedure. My vet, while not advocating that dogs be debarked at whim or lightly, has expressed support for me if I choose to have the procedure.

I do trust my vet, as I do my dentist, my optometrist, etc. However, just because an individual is the caregiver I have selected does not mean that I have to agree with him/her on everything in his/her practice. Again, my vet is supportive of me considering this, given the circumstances, but even if she was not, it is my responsibility to be a critical consumer of medical advice, not simply do (or not do) something because a vet or doctor advises it. It is my responsibility to do my research, get a second/third opinion, and make an informed decisions about all medical care for my pet, and myself.

Thank you for your comments. I know this is a controversial topic that stirs up deeply held feelings and beliefs. I am trying to make an informed, rational, responsible decision.

[Ringo1]

I guarantee you that my two would be kicked out of an apartment in a New York minute.

My neighbors here jokingly complain but we all have a truce. I don't complain about their kid's loud music and ball playing into the wee hours and they don't complain (too much) about Ringo! We try to have him inside early. Of course, he's outside at the crack of dawn due to my son's early swim practice but not out for very long.

I wish you so much good luck and hope you can find a house to rent; that would be so wonderful for you.

Hang in there!

PS: I wouldn't be capable of any kind of remodeling either! It took my son and I two hours to change the furnace filter down in the crawlspace.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by mommyofsophie

Thank you to everyone who posted their honest thoughts, opinions, and perspectives. I really do value your opinions as fellow Yorkie mommies and daddies! And thank you to everyone who is vehemently opposed to debarking, but expressed that opinion in a non-judgmental way. I have a horribly difficult decision to make. However, I am going to try the dog music CDs, crating her again, and moving. I have a one-year lease on my apt., so I've already asked to be able to move to an another unit in my apt. complex. I'm also looking into house rentals. I'll keep you updated. Thank you again for the concern for both Sophie's health and keeping our "family" intact. Several people have sent me private messages about their experiences (positive and negative) having their Yorkies debarked-- thank you!!

there are positive experiences with people debarking their dogs!? i would imagine only regrets of doing something like this to their dogs.

i just think that it is something you will regret later, plus people will always be asking you "what is wrong with your baby's bark?" and then you would have to explain or make up a lie about why you did it.

i really hope you find a house to rent. hopefully you will have neighbors who love dogs this time around.

[mommyofsophie]

I'm really surprised at how many people have assumed that because my vet can't perform the surgery that she thinks it's inhumane. My vet can't perform the operation because the VCA Woodland clinic in which she practices has a policy against it. My vet has given me a referral for a vet who has a private practice and does perform the procedure. My vet has been understanding of the really tough situation I'm in and the complexity of it. She is supportive of me having the surgery for Sophie, if I decide to do that.

But... even if my vet didn't agree with a decision I might make (and I absolutely have NOT decided to have the procedure), I still have the right to question my vet and her opinion. We need to be critical consumers of health care, for our dogs and ourselves. It worries me that many people think we should just accept whatever our vet thinks is best. Our vet is one person. Yes, he/she is a trained medical professional, but second and third opinions should always be considered for a big decision like this. I respect my vet and her opinion, but I also know it's my responsibility to do my research, ask informed questions, and make my own decisions in the end. I do that for my own healthcare, and I will do no less for Sophie, for whom I assumed life-long healthcare responsibility the moment she came into my life.

Thanks again to everyone who disagreed with me even considering this, but did so in a rational way!

[mommyofsophie]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

there are positive experiences with people debarking their dogs!? i would imagine only regrets of doing something like this to their dogs.

i just think that it is something you will regret later, plus people will always be asking you "what is wrong with your baby's bark?" and then you would have to explain or make up a lie about why you did it.

i really hope you find a house to rent. hopefully you will have neighbors who love dogs this time around.

1. I do not lie.
2. IF I decide to have the procedure for Sophie, why would I feel compelled to make up a lie to explain why I made that decision? Do I need to explain why her tail is docked, too?
3. I would never make decisions about my dog based on what strangers or other people might think. I'll collaborate with my vet to make informed, responsible decisions for Sophie's healthcare. I don't owe anyone an explanation. Now if someone wanted to talk about dog healthcare with me, I'm happy to do so. But I won't make decisions based on fear of others judging me.
4. Yes, several people have shared positive experiences. The sad thing is that the topic is so controversial that dog owners don't feel they can openly post that they have made this choice. We all, including myself, need to be a little less quick to judge other pet owners. We all love our babies and are doing the best we can.
5. I hope I find a house to rent, too. :-)

[bjh]

Originally Posted by lisaly

I've just read through all of the posts that were written while I was writing my reply. While I am opposed to debarking a dog, I certainly think my little Gracie was happier the way she was than if I had medicated her, used a shock collar, or kept her calm all day. She ran and played all day, and she did bark, but the sound wasn't raspy or loud. I don't think it would have been a problem if I lived in an apartment because it was still low enough. I'm not trying to justify anything, just because I had a dog that had been debarked. I wasn't the one who had the surgery done on Gracie, and I wish she hadn't had it. I DO know how happy my little girl was, however, despite the fact that she had been debarked.. In fact, the day before she died, the landscapers were here doing a winter cleanup. My husband said she barked nonstop, and every effort he made to stop her didn't work. I think we were so happy that she could bark, we didn't do the proper training with her to get her to stop when she did. She was as happy as could be that day, running from the front door to the back door barking at them. Her voice was hoarse that night, but I could see a huge sparkle in her eyes due to the fun she had that day. Perhaps she had only one vocal chord cut as Brooklynn said, and that's why her bark wasn't raspy and she had the ability to make a quiet bark.

Your posts brought tears to my eyes. I can tell you loved your baby dearly. Thanks for sharing your story.

I know of several show breeders that debark their pups. I have been around dogs that have been debarked and they seemed very happy. They could still make some noise.

[musiccitymom]

I so hate that you are in such a difficult situation and are faced with this decision. But it is ultimately yours to make and I am sure by reading what you have posted that you will make a very informed and thoughtful one.

I will say this... I am quite amazed at some of the responses.

[Mardelin]

It's very easy to give it advice in a situation such as this.

While I don't advocate such a procedure. I don't think I would say never say never. Especially if it came to a situation where my only option was to debark or rehome. Well my dogs aren't going anywhere.

I do know several breeder/exhibitors that have had their dogs and not all of them. Just those that are chronic, loud barkers that all training has not worked.

It any situation I always say "Walk A Mile In My Shoes" before you pass judgement.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by bjh

Your posts brought tears to my eyes. I can tell you loved your baby dearly. Thanks for sharing your story.

I know of several show breeders that debark their pups. I have been around dogs that have been debarked and they seemed very happy. They could still make some noise.

what is the reasoning for show people to debark their pups? do you know? thanks.

[mommyofsophie]

Originally Posted by lisaly

I've just read through all of the posts that were written while I was writing my reply. While I am opposed to debarking a dog, I certainly think my little Gracie was happier the way she was than if I had medicated her, used a shock collar, or kept her calm all day. She ran and played all day, and she did bark, but the sound wasn't raspy or loud. I don't think it would have been a problem if I lived in an apartment because it was still low enough. I'm not trying to justify anything, just because I had a dog that had been debarked. I wasn't the one who had the surgery done on Gracie, and I wish she hadn't had it. I DO know how happy my little girl was, however, despite the fact that she had been debarked.. In fact, the day before she died, the landscapers were here doing a winter cleanup. My husband said she barked nonstop, and every effort he made to stop her didn't work. I think we were so happy that she could bark, we didn't do the proper training with her to get her to stop when she did. She was as happy as could be that day, running from the front door to the back door barking at them. Her voice was hoarse that night, but I could see a huge sparkle in her eyes due to the fun she had that day. Perhaps she had only one vocal chord cut as Brooklynn said, and that's why her bark wasn't raspy and she had the ability to make a quiet bark.

Thank you so much for your comments in this post and the one your posted prior to it! You provided a really thoughtful discussion of risks/side effects and also how your Gracie was a very loved, very happy little girl.

[yorkiepuppie]

i have absolutely no idea why this is a situation where the ONLY option available is

1) de-bark
2) re-home

why is everyone saying those are the only options????

i don't have time to read this thread today, i will take a look tomorrow to see what i missed and why some people are saying re-home and de-bark are the only options available.

to the OP. i am not trying to judge you. (if you felt that i was judging you i am sorry) i feel very bad for you that you have to make a decision like this. and honestly i am very scared that sophie might get debarked. but yes, people WILL judge you if you debark your dog, it's human nature to judge, and people have good reasons to be against de-barking dogs. i dont' think you are a bad owner, if you were, you wouldn't make a thread to ask about it, you would have just done it.

best of luck to you in your search for a rental house. i know this is very hard on you right now with all the stress about your neighbor complaining, but it's not the end of the world, it's temporary. if you can, communicate with them, let them know you are working on resolving the problem. if i were your neighbor, and you told me that you are contemplating debarking your dog. i would tell you i am sorry i complained, i didn't mean to stress you out so much that you consider debarking your dog. hope your neighbor is understanding and will cut you a break. (most people are understanding i think if you communicate with them)

[mommyofsophie]

Originally Posted by Maximo

I'm so sorry for you. {{{{HUGS}}}}

The stories about the Shelties are so sad and cruel. You have every right to be concerned about your neighbors. One of my neighbors suggested with all seriousness that I rubber band my dogs' mouths shut while I walk them. If I were foolish enough to do such a thing, it would cause their deaths because they wouldn't be able to pant.

Can you send your neighbors a cordial note indicating that you are working as fast as you can to find a solution?

I can't believe your neighbor suggested that-- how rude! My neighbor won't even come to the door to talk to me. But I have spoken several times with the apt. complex manager and let her know that I am trying different things to see what might work. The manager is going to speak with my neighbor every Friday to get feedback on whether or not Sophie's barking is reduced. The neighbor won't even tell me directly. Talk about passive-aggressive childishness! But it's not about placating one annoying neighbor. The other neighbors who have complained are nice people whom Sophie is genuinely disturbing.